City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

You did NOT just say that? Did you?

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-12 16:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Causing lag and potential DC's for those with rigs that can't handle that stuff is a hassle for them. If those with toggles and suchnot are then asked politely to turn them off, and refuse, that then isn't minding their own business, thats causing a problem for someone else by refusal.
I can't argue for or against that point because honestly I haven't experienced any such lag. But let's not forget that this whole thread started with one person suggesting that other people find somewhere else to go besides Pocket D - to relocate rather than just be mindful of powerspamming the server to death. There's a big difference there and I think any reasonable person could see how that request, regardless of its phrasing, was GOING to ruffle some feathers.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective_Zero View Post
I can't argue for or against that point because honestly I haven't experienced any such lag. But let's not forget that this whole thread started with one person suggesting that other people find somewhere else to go besides Pocket D - to relocate rather than just be mindful of powerspamming the server to death. There's a big difference there and I think any reasonable person could see how that request, regardless of its phrasing, was GOING to ruffle some feathers.
I'd agree that telling them to get out, or even asking them to get out, wasn't the right thing to do. As people have rightly said, everyone pays their subs and have the right to be there if they want.

However, I do not see it unreasonable to ask people to turn off their toggles to cut down on the graphical lag it causes. Think about it. Get 2 or more BAF trials starting up, with everyone messing around and power spamming, and you'll end up with the same issues that are commonplace on Hami raids.

Hardly nice to the folks who just want to do their thing, is it?

@FloatingFatMan

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Posted

Yikes, after reading all 7 pages, I am glad to be a Freedumb player. So much drama over perceived slights and grievances.

As for toggling off powers while in Pocket D, no thank you. For example on my DA brute, I have 10 toggle powers (11 if you count Oppressive Gloom). Needless to say, having to constantly turning them on and off is a royal Pain with a capital P. There is just no way I'm going to subject myself to that mind numbing exercise 12-16 times a night (6-8 trial runs on average), on top of needing to do that after a defeat. My other brutes have less toggles but they still average about 7 each. It would be different if someone is spamming their AoE heals or buffs for no reason but really? Toggles?

Seriously, if your machine isn't capable of handling the graphical burden, set all options to minimum and turn off ultra mode. My computer isn't top of the line (2 years old) and it can handle 30-40 people standing around in Pocket D with their toggles on just fine. This isn't a problem with people refusing to turn off their toggles. Those powers were designed to be left on so I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary. Folks with lower end machines really shouldn't be asking everyone else to make concessions to suit their own purpose. I'm not saying this out of spite but rather it's just a way to transfer hassle and inconvenience from one group of players to another.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Detective_Zero View Post
I can't argue for or against that point because honestly I haven't experienced any such lag. But let's not forget that this whole thread started with one person suggesting that other people find somewhere else to go besides Pocket D - to relocate rather than just be mindful of powerspamming the server to death. There's a big difference there and I think any reasonable person could see how that request, regardless of its phrasing, was GOING to ruffle some feathers.
I don't think anyone would object if there wasnt the power spam that is causing those with lower end rigs (ditto that I personally haven't found that, not on my new rig, but I can easily imagine it given the state my old rig was in...)

But, judging from the replies here, that isn't an option, due to 'to much hassle'.
So, what else are those with a problem meant to do, when polite requests to de-toggle problem powers are met by "Tough, suck it, lolRP!"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
So, what else are those with a problem meant to do, when polite requests to de-toggle problem powers are met by "Tough, suck it, lolRP!"?
iI people are too caught up in THEIR wants to give a damn about other people, then the answer to THAT is simple too.

/petition Griefer

And no, no smiley this time.

@FloatingFatMan

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Posted

Again, as a role-player myself...
I don't go along with the whole power suppression to help role-players...
That sounds like a load of bunk to me.
Some characters, due to their concepts, should always have their powers on.
Taking away options only hurts character concepts/role-play and such.

If there is one thing that can be done best while dealing with lag... it is role-playing in a night club.

And just to reiterate my thoughts... first off, the quoted RPer in the OP was completely polite and nice and nothing wrong with expressing what they did.
And there is nothing wrong with people using Pocket D to form trials.
The entire game world is available for all types of play and we all can just go right along and do that.
If you feel like you'd like to avoid doing certain things in certain places in order to better accommodate others... thank you for being thoughtful and a kind person.
However, it is not mandatory and no one should ever suggest that it should be!

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
iI people are too caught up in THEIR wants to give a damn about other people, then the answer to THAT is simple too.

/petition Griefer

And no, no smiley this time.
So I should inconvenience myself by wasting 30 seconds per trial toggling powers on and off or risk being petitioned? This despite the fact that I'm using my toggle powers in a fashion that is consistant with its original intended purpose. Yeah, I'm glad that your convenience supercedes my convenience. It's almost as if it's my fault that your machine can't handle the graphical burden.

The moment you back your requests for others to be considerate of your needs with actual threats, it ceases being reasonable. It's flat out intimidation with no logical basis and reeks of selfishness. Thanks but no thanks.

 

Posted

^ If someone asks you nicely to stop causing them problems, and you refuse and carry on regardless, that's the moment you become a griefer; knowingly and intentionally causing other players problems by continuing your actions after being asked nicely to stop.

Your rights end at the tip of my nose.

@FloatingFatMan

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
...
Also, it's spelled T-R-I-A-L-S. :P (*Lots* of people doing that. Just do a forum search on "trail".)
Yes! It is a very easy/common typo, apparently.
I've even caught myself accidentally typing the A before the I, not sure why!
In fact, I recall the same exact common typo back in another game, along time ago... in a galaxy far far away... that had some trials that were often referred to as "trails".
Been noticing that a lot here recently, hehe...

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
^ If someone asks you nicely to stop causing them problems, and you refuse and carry on regardless, that's the moment you become a griefer; knowingly and intentionally causing other players problems by continuing your actions after being asked nicely to stop.

Your rights end at the tip of my nose.
Not necessarily, FFM.

I happen to believe that... if someone asks nicely, you are free to continue doing what you are doing if it is not directly/intentionally out of line with reasonable expectations.
Some people may have problems running their machine in TFs, Raids, Trials, Invasions, Large Events, etc...
It is something all of these people have to deal with from time to time and there's not much others can do about it.

The moment people reply with snark and/or obnoxious attacks to the person asking nicely is the moment they become griefers.

If an answer of no is not acceptable... then it is not actually a question.

I'm sorry to those who suffer from lag, but not everyone should have to turn off their powers or move to another zone because of it.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

^ Then respectfully, I suggest we agree to disagree.

@FloatingFatMan

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by baron_inferno View Post
So I should inconvenience myself by wasting 30 seconds per trial toggling powers on and off or risk being petitioned? This despite the fact that I'm using my toggle powers in a fashion that is consistant with its original intended purpose. Yeah, I'm glad that your convenience supercedes my convenience. It's almost as if it's my fault that your machine can't handle the graphical burden.

The moment you back your requests for others to be considerate of your needs with actual threats, it ceases being reasonable. It's flat out intimidation with no logical basis and reeks of selfishness. Thanks but no thanks.
Is 30 seconds honestly that horrific to you? If so, you have an incredibly low tolerance threshold.
As an MM, I spend that ammount of time every trial anyway setting up pets.
(Due to the ammount of times the persistent pet bug has rendered them immobile nad unfunctioning on zoning, I do it every time now)

So, taking 30 seconds to save someone a potentially lengthy crash, DC and re-load?

And, really, none of this would be an issue if the RWZ had a teleporter itself to make it easier to get to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Absolutely no reason for anything but respect, FFM.

However, I am surprised that we would be in complete disagreement about this.

An example... My character the Electric-Knight recently developed a problem with powers, where he is continuously emitting electricity beyond his previously normal amounts.
Charged Armor (and his aura) are always on.
Occasionally it gets so bad that lightning field comes on, as he has to do his best to control and manage the excess electrical currents away so that they cause no harm or disruption to others.

Now... he doesn't hang around in night clubs, but that's besides the point.

Isn't that an acceptable and entirely important piece of the role-play going on there?

Where is the line drawn?
I should limit that aspect because some few people may have lag?

If I am allowed to use those powers, due to the reasons outlined, who else is? Who isn't? Why?

Absolutely not looking to argue. I was honestly just curious for your opinions on those, considering your stance on this (with which I will not argue!).

However, I do not think that we could be in disagreement about one thing that I previously said...

If the no is not an acceptable answer... then it wasn't really a question.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
...
And, really, none of this would be an issue if the RWZ had a teleporter itself to make it easier to get to...
While I'm not usually a fan of reducing traveling (inner zone traveling, at least), a RWZ porter would be fabulous (even if it would further devalue bases... hehe).

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
Again, as a role-player myself...
I don't go along with the whole power suppression to help role-players...
That sounds like a load of bunk to me.
Some characters, due to their concepts, should always have their powers on.
Taking away options only hurts character concepts/role-play and such.

If there is one thing that can be done best while dealing with lag... it is role-playing in a night club.
/wholeheartedagreement

Like SilverAgeFan, upthread, I'm 100% roleplay in-game (mostly on Pinnacle these days. I don't tend to hang out in the D all that much, but were I to encounter a huge influx of heroes/villains clearly gearing up for something big, it woudl only stimulate my immersion. Like my character wondering if they should get involved...then staring down at their fresh pint and muttering "what the hell was I thinking?"

As far as the lag/powerspamming issue goes, I think a little polite communication goes a long ways. Find out who the League leader is (I haven't noticed: is it a right-click menu option like "chat with team leader" is?) and politely ask him if he would tell his league to hold down on the unnecessary power use, if possible. Just needed buffs and stuff that's part of the character's look, and so forth... I'd imagine more often than not, they'd be cool with that, provided the approach was polite.

"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
Where is the line drawn?
I should limit that aspect because some few people may have lag?

If I am allowed to use those powers, due to the reasons outlined, who else is? Who isn't? Why?

Lore wise you wouldn't be all dangerously electrical in Pocket D.

Lore wise it has a suppression field, it just doesn't have one in game play.

Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
Where is the line drawn?
I should limit that aspect because some few people may have lag?

If I am allowed to use those powers, due to the reasons outlined, who else is? Who isn't? Why?

Absolutely not looking to argue. I was honestly just curious for your opinions on those, considering your stance on this (with which I will not argue!).
I would say that anyone is free to run whatever powers or effects they like, right up until someone asks them nicely to stop as its causing them a problem. At that point, I would say that it's only decent and polite to accede to such a request and shut them off. It's easy enough, after all, to state OOCly that the effects continue even though they're not running. We do that sort of thing quite often on Union.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
If the no is not an acceptable answer... then it wasn't really a question.
Is no an acceptable response to a polite request? Does no show any consideration for ones fellow players? If someone asked me to shut off one of my toggles due to it causing them a problem, even if it was during a mission and I needed it, I would turn it off without even arguing. I want to have fun, sure; but not at the expense of someone else's fun.

Hell, during a BAF the other day, I was on the ambush team on my PB and someone said that the knockback was causing them problems. I immediately apologised and went off to beat on Siege instead, sacrificing my extra iXP so that I didn't inconvenience the team.

@FloatingFatMan

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
^ If someone asks you nicely to stop causing them problems, and you refuse and carry on regardless, that's the moment you become a griefer; knowingly and intentionally causing other players problems by continuing your actions after being asked nicely to stop.

Your rights end at the tip of my nose.
Okay full stop. Before you continue your callous use of the "griefer" accusation, let me pose these following points to you.

1. Am I abusing the game mechanic by using my toggle powers? No. As I've already said, I'm using the toggle powers within it's original perscribed parameter. If you refute this, please explain the "proper" way to use toggle powers to us.

2. Am I spamming someone else with unwanted powers? Debatable because PBAoE toggle powers tend to have that unavoidable side affect. However, this is not the same as auto-casting unwanted PBAoE heals or spamming someone with Flame Shield. Those are what I consider to be actual griefing attempts if they refuse to stop.

3. Let's expand this beyond the use of toggle powers. Would you ask people to not pre-buff their teammates just prior to starting a trial? That causes graphical burden as well, sometimes even more so. What if people just finished a trial and exited into Pocket D with a plathora of buffs on them? Sometimes those buffs last for 4 minutes and they can't just toggle them off. What happens then? Would you ask them "politely" to leave the zone or hide in a corner away from you? If they refuse, petition!

4. Am I somehow obligated to bow to your every request? If you feel that my posts are detrimental to your enjoyment of the forums, should I stop posting per your request? If I'm running through a mission at too fast a pace to let you take in all the scenery, should I slow down to a snails pace just to appease you? Asking "politely" doesn't automatically equate to being reasonable.

5. You don't think that asking others to be considerate to your needs without recourse is hypocrisy? What happens to their convenience? You don't think it's a hassle to have to turn their toggles on and off for every, single, trial? Just what makes you believe that your convenience trumps theirs?

I'm sorry but the self-centeredness in your posts are rearing its ugly head. Now I'm not saying my reasons for not wanting to turn off toggle powers aren't selfish but again, it's not my fault that your computer can't handle the graphical burden. For you to try to place that burden onto my shoulders is absurd.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by baron_inferno View Post

I'm sorry but the self-centeredness in your posts are rearing its ugly head. Now I'm not saying my reasons for not wanting to turn off toggle powers aren't selfish but again, it's not my fault that your computer can't handle the graphical burden. For you to try to place that burden onto my shoulders is absurd.
Actually, my PC can handle the burden fine. But I also RP with folks who's PC's can be prone to crash even during the average stress of a Rikti raid. So if we're not doing anything that needs the powers activated, I don't activate them; period.

As for buffing, I do THAT once I'm inside the mission. It's not like it takes long.

@FloatingFatMan

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Is 30 seconds honestly that horrific to you? If so, you have an incredibly low tolerance threshold.
As an MM, I spend that ammount of time every trial anyway setting up pets.
(Due to the ammount of times the persistent pet bug has rendered them immobile nad unfunctioning on zoning, I do it every time now)

So, taking 30 seconds to save someone a potentially lengthy crash, DC and re-load?

And, really, none of this would be an issue if the RWZ had a teleporter itself to make it easier to get to...
The 30 seconds was just an estimate. Realistically speaking, on my DA brute (the one I'm taking through the trials right now), it probably takes a little longer than 30 seconds. Also keep in mind that this is for *every* trial and I run quite a few each night. The average BAF run only lasts 15-20 minutes these days and I have to spend 3-5% of that time sitting on my bum? As for your comparison with MM, I don't think that's really valid. Having to spend time summoning pets is an established expection for MMs. It comes with the AT. Being defeated is one thing but having to toggle powers on and off for no apparent reason isn't one of the requirements for Brutes/Scrappers/Tankers/Stalkers.

You also are forgetting the fact that while I'm sitting at the beginning at the mission toggling all my powers on, others with less toggles have most likely engaged the mobs already. Since I'm not doing any damage, that could very realistically end up with my group taking a smaller share of the iexp/thread drops at the current league reward format. Yes, people do rush into mobs that fast on trials. Many people even start on the next group before the current one is even finished.

Lastly, let's not get into the discussion of trying to determine whose expectation of "reasonableness" or "consideration" is more correct. That's perilously close to passing off opinion as facts.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
Is no an acceptable response to a polite request? Does no show any consideration for ones fellow players? If someone asked me to shut off one of my toggles due to it causing them a problem, even if it was during a mission and I needed it, I would turn it off without even arguing. I want to have fun, sure; but not at the expense of someone else's fun.

Hell, during a BAF the other day, I was on the ambush team on my PB and someone said that the knockback was causing them problems. I immediately apologised and went off to beat on Siege instead, sacrificing my extra iXP so that I didn't inconvenience the team.
I understand the sentiment backing all of what you say, FFM (and, honestly, generally share it).
However, a polite request may still be unreasonable.
There are unreasonable people on all sides of things.
And yes, the answer no is acceptable to a polite request. I know plenty of insane and incompetant people that would politely ask things of me that they should not ask. I'll tell them no when it suits me and I'll politely ask them to learn ways that they can improve things themselves, before they ask everyone else around them to change.

I'm not cold-hearted and callous to others' issues, in life or in game, as these replies of mine may make it seem.
However, I certainly do not believe that any polite request requires affirmative response.

I've had to deal with playing on inadequate systems myself, and I'll certainly do my part to help those that clearly have a severe issue...
However, I also believe it is a responsibility of the people with inadequate systems/situations to adapt and do what they can to be able to enjoy themselves and to avoid damaging other people's pastime as well.

If someone just doesn't like the fact that their graphics settings at higher levels get bogged down when a large group is present... And they ask politely... they're not entirely in the right to be insisting that others change for them.


Thanks for engaging in a respectful exchange. I do not wish to drag it out if, at any time, you would prefer to drop it.
As far as I am concerned, we're just chatting.

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
I understand the sentiment backing all of what you say, FFM (and, honestly, generally share it).
However, a polite request may still be unreasonable.
There are unreasonable people on all sides of things.
And yes, the answer no is acceptable to a polite request. I know plenty of insane and incompetant people that would politely ask things of me that they should not ask. I'll tell them no when it suits me and I'll politely ask them to learn ways that they can improve things themselves, before they ask everyone else around them to change.

I'm not cold-hearted and callous to others' issues, in life or in game, as these replies of mine may make it seem.
However, I certainly do not believe that any polite request requires affirmative response.

I've had to deal with playing on inadequate systems myself, and I'll certainly do my part to help those that clearly have a severe issue...
However, I also believe it is a responsibility of the people with inadequate systems/situations to adapt and do what they can to be able to enjoy themselves and to avoid damaging other people's pastime as well.

If someone just doesn't like the fact that their graphics settings at higher levels get bogged down when a large group is present... And they ask politely... they're not entirely in the right to be insisting that others change for them.


Thanks for engaging in a respectful exchange. I do not wish to drag it out if, at any time, you would prefer to drop it.
As far as I am concerned, we're just chatting.
Nice to see the thread ended up in a good place. Not being sarcastic, politely agreeing to disagree is the best situation sometimes.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
I'd agree that telling them to get out, or even asking them to get out, wasn't the right thing to do. As people have rightly said, everyone pays their subs and have the right to be there if they want.

However, I do not see it unreasonable to ask people to turn off their toggles to cut down on the graphical lag it causes. Think about it. Get 2 or more BAF trials starting up, with everyone messing around and power spamming, and you'll end up with the same issues that are commonplace on Hami raids.

Hardly nice to the folks who just want to do their thing, is it?
In the past week, I've seen numerous requests for league recruitment to move away from the RWZ so the groups don't impact efforts to organize Mothership raids. People have even proactively done it when they see the announcement for the raid-- before any Mothership Raider requests it. In all those times I've never seen an objection raised as to the inconvenience this causes the Trial-runners.

Granted, the people objecting to the RP'ers requests here aren't the same people that made such concessions, but it does seem to reflect something of a community double-standard- its fine to make accommodations for other raid/trial-minded players but not roleplayers requesting pretty much the same.






Roleplayers can't EXPECT you to turn down the toggles or possibly consider assembling teams elsewhere, but they're not out-of-line in making the request. Non-roleplayers have a right to be there, too, of course, but when the activities of either start impacting the other, its fair and reasonable for everyone to seek some kind of resolution.

Unfortunately, the tone of those requests matters most... and there's been a good history of derision between non-roleplayers and roleplayers over the years. Many times we assume chat words were "spoken" more derisively than they were intended... and many times we immediately jump to derisive statements in anticipation of a fight.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Also, it's spelled T-R-I-A-L-S. :P (*Lots* of people doing that. Just do a forum search on "trail".)
That was a really badly timed typo, wasn't it? It's probably so common because spellcheckers don't catch it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baron_inferno View Post
2. Am I spamming someone else with unwanted powers? Debatable because PBAoE toggle powers tend to have that unavoidable side affect.
When you're talking PBAoEs, then yeah, I'd argue that asking someone to turn those off isn't at all unreasonable. It's not like you have 10 of them. I have stood next to faaaaaar too many people running Quills at the market to have any sympathy for people who leave these on in places where players gather.

Quote:
3. Let's expand this beyond the use of toggle powers. Would you ask people to not pre-buff their teammates just prior to starting a trial?
Buffing random people while you're still LFT in broadcast isn't pre-buffing. It's being a pest.

If people stopped spamming unnecessary powers then the few people running toggles would be much less problematic. A guy standing there on fire is just a guy standing there on fire. He's the guy at the other table wearing a really loud shirt. A guy who just dropped Freezing Rain on my head or threw a Cold shield on me...that's the drunk who just walked over to my table and insisted I interact with him.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
Actually, my PC can handle the burden fine. But I also RP with folks who's PC's can be prone to crash even during the average stress of a Rikti raid. So if we're not doing anything that needs the powers activated, I don't activate them; period.

As for buffing, I do THAT once I'm inside the mission. It's not like it takes long.
Might I offer an alternate solution then? If my assumption is correct, graphical lag only happens when you're within direct line of sight of the cause. There are certain areas of Pocket D where direct line of sight to the dance floor is blocked. The area next to the ski chalet door on the upper floor for example. If you believe it's reasonable for you ask people to toggle off their powers, as a counter-argument to that, it is also reasonable for others to ask you to relocate to certain areas out of line of sight to alleviate the issue, assuming you want to stay in Pocket D.

Let's also look at this from a probability point of view.

A. Asking 20-40 people on the dance floor to turn off their toggle powers.
B. Getting your group of folks to move 100 feet to an area away from the dance floor.

I personally think option B would win out every time.