My friend is quitting soon...
By
Amir,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 22:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Leo do you know what Zen is?
If you have ever read the book Zen in the Martial Arts, Joe Hyams recounts a time when he was late for a lesson with the legendary Bruce Lee - Bruce asked why he was late? Joe explained he had a person call and wanted to discuss a possible movie deal (Joe is a Producer - Made the series Kung Fu). The person is unpleasant and so Joe was not only late but also a bit angry.
Bruce asked does this person make you a better person or a worse one? A happier person or an angry one?
Bruce then explained something very profound. You only have so many hours in your day, who you spend them with and why should be weighed carefully.
To hold these friends in his hands and view his time with them as precious enough for him to play a game with them is his choice. I applaud his loyalty and care for his friends. If as he plays he makes new friends this is good as well - however not required.
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Calm down.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
How about you and everyone else telling him his friend's wrong go pretend you're superman and take a flying leap.
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Which says nothing about predisposing ones self to avoiding others since you can't tell if said individuals will make you angry, irritable, enlightened or elated.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Leo do you know what Zen is?
If you have ever read the book Zen in the Martial Arts, Joe Hyams recounts a time when he was late for a lesson with the legendary Bruce Lee - Bruce asked why he was late? Joe explained he had a person call and wanted to discuss a possible movie deal (Joe is a Producer - Made the series Kung Fu). The person is unpleasant and so Joe was not only late but also a bit angry. Bruce asked does this person make you a better person or a worse one? A happier person or an angry one? Bruce then explained something very profound. You only have so many hours in your day, who you spend them with and why should be weighed carefully. To hold these friends in his hands and view his time with them as precious enough for him to play a game with them is his choice. I applaud his loyalty and care for his friends. If as he plays he makes new friends this is good as well - however not required. |
No, I haven't read the book of Zen in Martial arts, but many lessons you can't take on face value. This, I have been taught first hand. So when applying said lessons to the situation at hand, it's not always a 1:1 transition.
If people in a PUG ruins your Zen, avoid those people, not PUGs.
What do I think? I think your "friend" is leaving for other reasons, and that I20 is just a scapegoat.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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I didn't say he was wrong. I said he's a wuss.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
How about you and everyone else telling him his friend's wrong go pretend you're superman and take a flying leap.
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From my time in this game, I can can honestly say it strikes me as odd that many are saying that the individual in question should 'Branch out' and 'Meet new faces' through trials- I have to say, in my time in this game the worst places to go to get to know somebody are (1.) farm teams, and (2.) TF's/trials/etc.The farm teams I won't get into, as that's a whole 'nother story. But on trials/TF's, people are many times focused on the objective, and hiccups can be problematic for the team. Add to this that oftentimes it's a set period of time that people disperse from afterwards, and it just hasn't been the best way to know somebody. The new trials are far more rushed, and often more difficult, with frequent failures. Not the happiest place to socialize.
The folks I play with most I've met by teaming up to do random assortments of missions, where there are not start/finish prerogatives, not much pressure when stuff goes awry, and things are simple enough that there's no pressure on those that prefer a more relaxed game experience.
In these cases I'd suggest finding some odd, side content/arcs that don't get used much and play those, through ouroboros if necessary. Likewise the mission architect can be good if you find some fun arcs, or if you take the time to build them. Or, start some new, themed duo to play.
Or (in case it hasn't been mentioned), tell your friend that it's OK to take a break, play some CoD and get faced and berated by ADHD 12 year olds on Red Bull and pixiestix, then when he comes back all beaten down he'll have a new appreciation of what is good about this game.
Seriously, everyone needs a break now and then.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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Your point of view is probably the closest to my friend's view. |
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
We have a game that has a STATIC subscriber base of about 100,000 give or take each month.
We have a game which has NEVER in 7 years had this style of grind for a reward. I will NOT become a farmer for a shiney. I understand his friend - the one who has been here since the beginning and he sees the game he loved take a turn into a style of play he loathes. I am completely ignoring this "content" however do you think there will be MORE such "content"? I do indeed and it causes me great irritation when the so called "best community" in the world attacks a player who finds a completely new style of play after 7 years - not desirable. If you wanted to do a Hamidon raid you could and get a shiney little boost - but it was small. If I wanted to do a sewer trial I got a similar reward. Small but useful. Now if you wish to ignore the farming lifestyle it is NOT a small boost - it is 3 levels in boost and potentially a gated content block. It is Permanent pets, permanent AoE attack powers and more coming. We have TF's now that if you do not have an Alpha slot reduces you to -8. What happens in the future if you don't climb on the hamster wheel? This is the most foolish ill advised change to this game since before ED. The loss of customers this will cause cannot just be absorbed. The players love the game they have played for all this time and now the Devs are making it into WoW or some other game that was NOT played the way City of Heroes was. |
I don't know what it is that really pisses him off. He thinks the dev will not add any more raid that carters to "smaller group" and that he thinks he is forced to join big group to get the "new powers".
He LOVES this game. I think he is one of the two people that I've played with that treat this game as a "full time job". He hired artists to draw his characters. He sets up profile in some photo website with all his characters. He truly enjoy(ed) this game.
Me?? I am one of those that use "random" button when I create character. I've only written one character bio in the past 4 years. lol I am like the opposite end of him. We enjoy this game for different reasons.
I will be sad if he leaves and I want to know if others are feeling the same/similar way he is because honestly, I don't get it. I think it's healthy for a game to encourage teaming because I think soloing in an online game is weird. And no, he doesn't prefer soloing. He likes to team but ONLY with the people that he WANTS to team with.
Believe me, I've tried to communicate with him. I can sort of see his points but I think it's a bit too extreme. Maybe he does need a break... who knows.
I just want to know if the dev has more plans for smaller/soloers to get new abilities without grinding for a long long time. I mean we already have enough grinds for 24-men team. At the rate he is doing, he won't get to tier 4 until two years?
And he DOES want to get the new abilities. He is attached to some of his characters and he wants to see them get stronger (even though the regular content doesn't need that kind of powers). So asking him to ignore i20 isn't the answer. He is paying two accounts and I know he has paid numerous character slots and packs. Oh, and he does know he is in the Minority. Does Minority Report count? :P
We'll see...
PS: Just to clarity, I have no problem with PUGing. Hell, I met him through PUGing two years ago on Virtue. I have no problem with i20.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I don't know what the conversion rate is honestly. I just know he tried to get his first incarnate and he has spent 40 shards so far and several SF drops. He won't even try Lamba as far as I know. I did Lamba run last night with other friends. I tried to tell him that Lamba is very beatable with 8-men.
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Originally Posted by passerby
Did your friend convert ALL 40 shards into threads at once?
If that's what he did then he really has himself to blame. Impatience is not a luxury a trial-averse player can afford. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I agree. I subbed a year ago and from playing the game normally, I've built a global friends list of over 30 people and am also in a good villain group. From this list and the coalition, I can be in a team where I know everyone.|
Originally Posted by Intrinsic
Sounds like your friend is not completely averse to teaming with new people. Maybe it's time to expand that circle of friends again.
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Since the game can't be tailored to your friend, I suggest that he meet more friends that he can team with. I'm a mere 1 year vet who started off with 0 friends. I'm sure a 6 year vet like him can do it.
I'm assuming you have a global friends list. And I assume that your global friends also have their own list. Say you know 20 people and those 20 know another 20 people. That's 20x20=400 potential people that he can meet.
If he refuses to even interact with anyone new, I don't think that the issue is the game. He is better off quiting and socializing in real life. I apologize in advance if I offend you with this, but this is just my opinion.
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Believe me, I've tried to share this concept with him. I think he is just mad right now. I think he is more mad at the "direction" of this game rather than what is going on right now. Even if we can beat Lamba with 8-men, the later trials may require even more people so in the end, he sees that his investment is not "worth it". |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Just curious, but is it really a PuG, if he can get 4-6 of his friend on the team, and the rest filler to fill up for the league (whether it be the minimum or the maximum amount of players)?
It wouldn't seem that way to me. Yeah, there are PuG members, but he'd know a good chunk of the team. I ran an ITF with 5 of my SG and two People broadcasting for an ITF today. I didn't really consider it a PuG. |
We've done many SFs as 4 or 5-people even in Apex. They'll bring their second accounts out as "dummy" to fill the team so we can bypass that 8-men restriction! lol To be honest, this is kinda challenging and fun.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
While i can understand where your friend is coming from, i do however have to say..tough it up... As you said, you don't know why he gets so assy with PUG's.yer they can be terrible but also lots of fun..
Be it that, The new content is 50+ and designed to test the character a lot and from that evolve higher. the story is even a focal point in it... In time TF's/SF's will be brought out, trials like Lambda and BAF aren't going to replace anything in the future..but this is war and more people are needed then the already max 8 (so some of the team must be bug if you can fill with 4-6 as good friends.) This game cannot evolve if it's going to stick to 8 man teams forever.
No offense to the friend of yours, but lambda is only 16 players and BAF is only 24 players...your telling me he doesn't even have 16 friends after soo many years of playing that he can't even make a lambda out of it?? (no insulting him or anything it's just somewhat shocking, that and he can't even handle another 8-12 other players for whats not even over an hours work.
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TBA this sounds like he might need a short break from the game|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Believe me, I've tried to share this concept with him. I think he is just mad right now. I think he is more mad at the "direction" of this game rather than what is going on right now. Even if we can beat Lambda with 8-men, the later trials may require even more people so in the end, he sees that his investment is not "worth it".
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the direction of the game?, it's a new issue after 19 of them that's asking you to team up with other people. sorry but this made me
And as we don't know what's the currently situation of the future unlocks of the incarnate, thats a very big statement to make really...besides when this coming storm comes and future wars..what he thinks him and 7 mt8s can stop it..sorry (once again no offense meant here) but that's up him self a bit. Heroes and villains always team up (either villains together, heroes together or heroes and villains together when a greater evil is coming) This game is still story based (Ok be it, there's no comic about this now) but story non the less..We're not all Omega level yet and at times the powers of others are needed...Why yes i can see why he thinks it still, but what has he done then over all the years when new stuff comes out..i guess he never does a CoP raid or Hami cos that needs other people involved 2.
Either way i hope your friend finds reasoning, either through a short break(s) or some other method.
I on the other hand, while can be annoyed with PUG's just go about working for myself in the team and blaming the heroes for any and all failures....
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Change is change. There is nothing superior about content requiring 16 people compared to content that you can do with 3-4. The idea that the numbers have to go higher to provide something new is short sighted and will very likely drive people away.
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Originally Posted by HardRider
This game cannot evolve if it's going to stick to 8 man teams forever.
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I'd been hoping for a LONG time for multi-team missions. I have more buddies in-game than fit in one group, so a multi-team setup would allow them to join on in. The headscratcher for me is that most of the new stuff is along with a 'Hardcore' new direction. (Well, not 'new,' just a higher progression from the recluse/states TF's.) My characters that are IO'd to the gills with ultra-rare alphas and all that stuff died pretty often but can still kick butt.
Basically, stuff that will kick my more laid-back/casual in-game buddies' tushes more often then not, leaving them feeling defeat, frustrated, and incompetent.
They're used to normal missions where we can joke around and take names in 'normal' content, and the new stuff turn into "Serious bizniz: YOU WILL DIE, foo! Get on the ground an give me 20...temps in 5 minutes against +4's! Go! Go! Go!" It makes me think the devs are tailoring to the speed runner tf crowd, which my buddies absolutely REFUSE to do. Ah, well. On the plus side, the old TF's story arcs are around, so we do this stuff.
I wonder what the uproar would have been like if the devs just did a league story arc.
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Please see, oh, every other thread dealing with this. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I think it's healthy for a game to encourage teaming because I think soloing in an online game is weird.
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Soloing in an online game is not "weird." COH has been very friendly to this playstyle. Getting things locked away (and ridiculous conversion times/prices is not "keeping it available) that are more than cosmetic goes against that, and has rubbed MANY people the wrong way.
He sounds a LOT like me, frankly (down to multiple accounts and artwork.)
I've been grinding through these because, well, that's where I'm finding people. It's where my friends are, "finishing up" their characters. Honestly, I'm not finding it particularly fun. I'm doing it - and sitting back and watching - because after this is the "Coming storm" that's been hinted, pointed, etc. at since issue 6... and my big worry is that THAT, which should be a major event, is going to be locked behind more of this incarnate nonsense and require giant multi-team leagues to do anything with.
If so - and no, throwing tiny crumbs of non-giant-raid content is not "avoiding" this - well, the jump to TOR won't be as hard.
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Agreed. It's a shallow concept based around the idea that bigger is inherently better. While it's true that having more players, gear, levels etc. involved does lend a greater degree of scope, it can also lead to frustration when those things aren't so easily acquired. And considering the new trials are a pretty radical departure from the majority of previous content there's bound to be some backlash.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Change is change. There is nothing superior about content requiring 16 people compared to content that you can do with 3-4. The idea that the numbers have to go higher to provide something new is short sighted and will very likely drive people away.
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So the question is how can the Devs provide the challenge the Incarnate system has to bring in order to justify its rewards without rattling players' cages too much? Only time will tell but the answer is critical to the future of the game we all love.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
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Many topics on this very issue in the general city of heroes discussion forum.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
First of all, I DO like i20 issue. I think it brings something very different to the table. I know other big games like WoW have "raids" like this. I've never done a raid in WoW ('cause I quit that game at lvl 41) but I know it requires many people like 16 or 24.
However, some of my friends are quite annoyed with this issue because they feel that they are now "forced" to join a PUG team. Our normal team-size is about 4-6 every night and sometimes we get a full team. He REALLY hates teaming with he doesn't know. I can't explain what happened because I met him through a PUG team two years ago. These friends have played this game for years and most of them have played this game since beta. Now before you get angry and start trashing my friend, let me give you his side of view: 1. He has more than 20-30 level 50s. Some he doesn't like that much and some he REALLY likes them. He has two active accounts. He even hired artists to draw cartoon characters based on his toon and costume design. He is THAT into this game for 6-7 years. 2. He likes to team but only with people he knows. We all belong to the same chat that we use every night. 3. He likes challenges. He doesn't like the setting too low. 4. Since i20, he used 40 shards, 5 Wells conversion (this means he used 5 weeks), 3 ITF runs, 1 new Hero SF 20-40 and two Villain SF 20-40 runs to try to get his first Judgment and he is STILL 6 shards away from getting just the FIRST tier power. I haven't converted much from Shard to Thread because I've been teaming in Pocket D (since I don't mind PUGing most of the time) but this conversion looks very sucky. Let's just say he wants to avoid all trials, it will take him 2.5 years to unlock something that those that do trials can unlock in days/weeks. I understand you can let soloers gain threads too easily or else nobody wants to join trials but I think the conversion needs to be better than what we have now. Disagree? 5. We did a Lamba run with 4 other friends from the chat and we almost beat it with 8 people in Lamba. Only two people (including myself) have done Lamba before and know what is going on. I think we did REALLY well and I believe with some practice, we can beat Lamba with just 8 people. This is acceptable. But I am afraid BAF will be much harder with just 8 people especially during prison escapes. Now, are there any news that the future trials are going to have smaller-size trials? I actually prefer smaller-size and with added "Randomness" so each run doesn't feel exactly the same way. Random-ness can be some random events or random AVs that you need to beat. 6. He wants to advance with some of his favorite characters but he just doesn't want to join big trial teams. Well, I just want to voice his opinions here because he may quit soon and I am going to be sad as he plays a lot and he is one of my long-term game friend in this game. I've been trying very hard to talk him out of it but he can be so stubborn!!! I understand i20 doesn't take away anything he has enjoyed so far but he does want new Incarnate abilities. He just doesn't want to feel like he is forced to PUG with less than 8-12 people. What's your thoughts on this? |
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Your OP said that he hates playing with strangers, which is why he won't do trials. But now it sounds like he simply refuses to do the trials, even if playing only with friends. Honestly man, it sounds like he has other reasons for not doing it, and the whole "hate strangers" thing is just an excuse. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I did Lamba run last night with other friends. I tried to tell him that Lamba is very beatable with 8-men.
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Maybe he has some fear of failure, so he's too afraid to do something new, knowing that he will probably get owned the first time. Or maybe he's just mad like you said, due to his own personal reasons, which really have nothing to do with the game.
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Fear of failure I doubt, and this individual in question sounds like someone that cares about who joins his team (not exactly min/max player, but probably doesn't want to team with a petless MM for example). |
Originally Posted by Supermax
Your OP said that he hates playing with strangers, which is why he won't do trials. But now it sounds like he simply refuses to do the trials, even if playing only with friends. Honestly man, it sounds like he has other reasons for not doing it, and the whole "hate strangers" thing is just an excuse.
Maybe he has some fear of failure, so he's too afraid to do something new, knowing that he will probably get owned the first time. Or maybe he's just mad like you said, due to his own personal reasons, which really have nothing to do with the game. |
As a result, this individual in question may end up liking the end game system with the market leader.
40 man----->25 man----->10 man
Why is CoX trying to go in the opposite direction of industry trends I don't know. CoX was highly regarded for its small group content for a long time, and when the rest of the industry has started to follow this formula, CoX decides to give up on its Golden Standard???
No wonder this individual is jaded.
I do wish there was more solo content. I don't like HAVING to team. I could care less if someone think that's "wrong" on a multiplayer game. Teaming should be for fun, not so I can throw a warm body in the way of me getting things done. Or someone doing the things I wanted to be the one to do.
Incarnate power SHOULD be about you--and getting power. Not an army.
(An army of 100 could be fun--and EPIC, god knows I wish more people were interested in fighting C'thun in WoW, but only Rikti raid often. Not Incarnate trial grind often.)
I made my offender for my own story, not so I could keep other people alive. I enjoy PUGing fine, but I do it for speed. No one wants to sit around while I read the content and think about how my character feels about it.
As far as I'm concerned, the new powers are there to help me solo better. Every time I hear someone say "this new change has made the game too easy!!!", I know they're not playing a gimp powerset with a character they unfortunately love more than any other. (I've tried rerolling a clone. Just doesn't work for me.)
And who knows? Ramiel's storyline says you become the ultimate solo-er. Big raids are just one thing in a game full of different things, maybe Omega is when no one else can help you.
My pet peeve is people who refuse to acknowledge it when I tell them my character has unlimited power. If I rp attack them they are of course disintegrated beyond the ability of any hospital or magic to restore. Yet despite this they refuse to delete their characters and still keep playing them as if nothing happened. ~Mandu, 07-16-2010
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Why not try this with Lambda? You may not win right away, but you will be able to get a ton of ixp and threads.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
We've done many SFs as 4 or 5-people even in Apex. They'll bring their second accounts out as "dummy" to fill the team so we can bypass that 8-men restriction! lol To be honest, this is kinda challenging and fun.
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Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
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This seems to be a likely assessment of the situation.
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
What do I think? I think your "friend" is leaving for other reasons, and that I20 is just a scapegoat.
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Sermon
@sermon
One of Six, Cannibal 6
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I hate hearing that too. I solo missions somewhere between 0x4 and 0x8 depending on what Im doing. I read about some of the tougher characters soloing at 4x8. If the game gets too easy, we still have a little room to make it harder.|
Originally Posted by Ashtoreth_NA
Every time I hear someone say "this new change has made the game too easy!!!"
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Also I have an emp/elec defender that I cant even solo at -1x1 (built 100% for support), he is going to love the incarnate powers.
These people on the internet trying to team with you aren't carrying knives or guns to hurt you or aren't going to kidnap you into sex slavery. So why shun them?