The real difference between Trial and non-Trial Incarnate Advancement
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 09:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Technically there isn't a single thing in this entire game that people need. That's not a very compelling argument. Technically nobody needs TOs. That doesn't mean they should take 2 weeks to earn.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Better rewards require more time/effort to earn, as they should. It's that simple.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Technically there isn't a single thing in this entire game that people need. That's not a very compelling argument. Technically nobody needs TOs. That doesn't mean they should take 2 weeks to earn.
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I would agree with you if incarnate made sense. The amount of effort required for incarnate varies between one week to 2.7 years, for the same rewards.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Better rewards require more time/effort to earn, as they should. It's that simple.
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If incarnate stuff is a "better reward" than it shouldn't be attainable in a week. If it's not, then it shouldn't take years.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'll agree with that. We shouldn't be able to unlock all of our slots and have very rares in every slot by the end of a week.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I would agree with you if incarnate made sense. The amount of effort required for incarnate varies between one week to 2.7 years, for the same rewards.
If incarnate stuff is a "better reward" than it shouldn't be attainable in a week. If it's not, then it shouldn't take years. |
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Your 2.7 year years is worst case though getting t4s, with just purely converting shards, at the 10:10 rate. Your not counting 10:5, and threads from apex/tin mage or even just running 1 trial (within that time frame, ya know, as the 'hey whats this' kinda run)|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I would agree with you if incarnate made sense. The amount of effort required for incarnate varies between one week to 2.7 years, for the same rewards.
If incarnate stuff is a "better reward" than it shouldn't be attainable in a week. If it's not, then it shouldn't take years. |
Even if you avoid the trials, you can get the bonuses sooner then 2.7 years. It is possible.
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-in your opinion |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'll agree with that. We shouldn't be able to unlock all of our slots and have very rares in every slot by the end of a week.
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In my opinion, overt use of grind is odious, boring and penalises those that don't have time to spend grinding raids all night. I've still yet to unlock the Destiny slot, and I've only got uncommons in Interface and Judgement.
So, just because some people cand do stuff fast doesn't mean everyone can and will.
And, personally, I detest the fact you have to pay to turn shards into threads. 10:10 or 10:5 doesn't bother me. But I have no use for shards on Alpha. I have my Tier 4 alpha slot, and I do'n't intend to make more. So why am I not allowed to turn these things into something useful that I can and want to use? Why must I pay for that?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No it doesn't. But I don't have the time or money to get into competitive car racing. Does that mean someone should reward me with a sponsorship to try?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
In my opinion, overt use of grind is odious, boring and penalises those that don't have time to spend grinding raids all night. I've still yet to unlock the Destiny slot, and I've only got uncommons in Interface and Judgement.
So, just because some people cand do stuff fast doesn't mean everyone can and will. |
Look, I don't have all the time in the world to grind this stuff either. I have a full time job, a mortgage, a house to keep up with, and a family. I still don't feel like I should get handed the rewards any easier because I simply don't have the time to earn them.
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I did it in four days, three of which were work days. Yes, I do very much believe I was lucky, but I also played my butt off, playing the new trials dozens of times over those four days. If, for whatever reason, I were to have spent that time trying to earn that same progress solo, it probably would have taken multiple months. If I had run a bunch of TFs in there and not just solo, I might have take multiple weeks stretching into month or so. Those estimates are consistent with the factor of 10-30 that seems to be a "reasonable" estimate in the time difference in running the trial to not running the trial.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'll agree with that. We shouldn't be able to unlock all of our slots and have very rares in every slot by the end of a week.
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Whether we can or should get these rewards this fast from the new trials is, for the most part, a separate discussion from how large the time scale difference should be between earning them in the trials and earning them some other way. A factor of 2-5 is very large in my opinion. A factor of 10-30 is staggering, and it's this that I question almost more than the absolute time scales involved. Maybe four days is too fast, but even if it should be 12 days, I think 120 days is too slow.
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I already addressed this above. Even at a completely absurd 50 shards per day it would still take a year. Again, for something a trial player can get in a week. And I already addressed that if you start dropping your expectations and settle for uncommon/rare, that's just even that much faster that the trial player can get it. If you drop VRs and just get all rares, you can get that in a day or two. Which still takes over a year doing it with shards.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Your 2.7 year years is worst case though getting t4s, with just purely converting shards, at the 10:10 rate. Your not counting 10:5, and threads from apex/tin mage or even just running 1 trial (within that time frame, ya know, as the 'hey whats this' kinda run)
Even if you avoid the trials, you can get the bonuses sooner then 2.7 years. It is possible. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Or you go to the market and buy them.
| It's been said before with IOs and purple IOs and PvP IOs and hami-Os. These things are very rare. They are specific rewards for specific things. If you want those rewards, you do those specific things. |
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A time measured in hours on one side and months on the other IS unreasonable.
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Conservatively it takes 50 shards to unlock a slot. Times 4 that's 200 shards. To slot a common takes 60 shards; an uncommon another 100. So to get uncommons in each slot takes 840 shards. Or about three months if you're converting every day (assuming you aren't sitting on any shards right now). Those uncommons get you the vast majority of the benefits of the four slots. You get a very strong nuke, good debuff, nice buff and a couple of pets. All the rares/very rares get you is bigger numbers. For someone who refuses to EVER run a trial, that's not even nearly unreasonable to me. |
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It's just not going to convince me because I don't see any reason the solo player should get these rewards at all.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I already addressed this above. Even at a completely absurd 50 shards per day it would still take a year. Again, for something a trial player can get in a week. And I already addressed that if you start dropping your expectations and settle for uncommon/rare, that's just even that much faster that the trial player can get it. If you drop VRs and just get all rares, you can get that in a day or two. Which still takes over a year doing it with shards.
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They are rewards for specific content. If you choose not to play that content, you should not get that reward.
The Devs gave you an alternate path to achieve these rewards, much like I have an alternate path to obtain PvP IOs. For one PvP set, I will have to spend one year doing tips. Just one set. When I compare that to one very rare incarnate ability, I see that they can do it quicker.
The alternate path may be absurdly longer than the intended, but to me, it appears to be in line with other alternatives the game has. I feel your pain, but I don't see any reason it should be changed.
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Because all the people playing 50s for Incarnate rewards are pumping insane amounts of inf into the system. Something has to pull it out. 250k inf per thread is more than reasonable. The 100-400 mil costs, on the other hand, are probably offputting enough that some people will just refuse to pay them, which kinda defeats the purpose of an inf sink.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And, personally, I detest the fact you have to pay to turn shards into threads. 10:10 or 10:5 doesn't bother me. But I have no use for shards on Alpha. I have my Tier 4 alpha slot, and I do'n't intend to make more. So why am I not allowed to turn these things into something useful that I can and want to use? Why must I pay for that?
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They are not intrinsically tied to that content.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
They are rewards for specific content. If you choose not to play that content, you should not get that reward.
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| The Devs gave you an alternate path to achieve these rewards, much like I have an alternate path to obtain PvP IOs. For one PvP set, I will have to spend one year doing tips. Just one set. |
Which is, oddly, probably less time than it would take to get your IO through PvP, which is the "right way" to get it.
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This is the biggest thing for me. Even when people talk about how the 2.7 years is a worst case scenario and exaggerated, they never come back with a time frame that isn't measured in months and costs billions of inf.|
Originally Posted by Venture
A time measured in hours on one side and months on the other IS unreasonable.
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When the non-trial rate is less than 10% of the trial rate, even in the best case scenarios, there's a problem. It's not slower, it's a don't bother trying.
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They were designed for the content, rewarded by the content, and provide bonuses only available for that content. What more ties do you want?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
They are not intrinsically tied to that content.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Except that PvP IOs are tradeable. In the time it takes to earn one PvP IO you will probably earn enough inf to buy at least one more, and that's if you're stealthing your tips. If you're steamrolling them on x8 and marketing your drops, you can probably buy the rest of the set, since only a few uniques sell at the inf cap. And if you're also converting reward merits to A-merits, buying a PvP IO can take less than a month.
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The 2.7 year figure is considering 10 shards to threads per day. I am limiting to the five tips per day. Adding in the 50 merit conversion adds much more playtime to the equation, because you have to earn 50 merits per day. Through Ouro (the solo option), this is going to take forever, and thus I ignored it.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Which is, oddly, probably less time than it would take to get your IO through PvP, which is the "right way" to get it.
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Thanks for the data, I really appreciate it. Your Brute's Shard average is crazy, I had no idea anyone could do that! |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Going thirty times faster in iTrials in what, for me personally, is a reasonably accurate scenario (and I believe I'm still being nice to the shard side, as I'm actually going to save my emp merits for a very rare).
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The point of this thread is supposed to be this: before this content was released, estimates as to the speed difference between Trial and non-Trial advancement were based entirely on Thread vs Shard drops and the conversion rate. But it's very obvious now that Thread drops comprise only a small component of the total advancement. Merits and component drops provide the bulk, so our estimates were way off.
And for those still criticizing the "calculations" (of which you could only mean the estimated Shard drops, because nothing else is suspect) in the OP, they've been adjusted based on Arcanaville's points-- but not her particular playstyle, because my post provides information about differences in my performance, not hers. I'm hoping that she will post hers.
This thread was not supposed to be a complaint or yet another solo vs teaming beatdown between the usual suspects. It was supposed to be the start of a discussion and analysis of the impact these extra rewards have on the difference between trial and non-trial rewards, so we can have a better idea of what that is and not throw out random inaccurate numbers like "5 times as long" or "1000 times as long".
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What this has become is you have a player on one side who is used to farming. They did it in other MMo's and so now it doesn't bother them to do it again.
Contrast that with the person who plays THIS MMO because we never had to grind. I just played the game, made characters leveled some to 50 - most times deleted them at 50 and sold the stuff.
Now you block me from further rewards, levels and powers because I refuse to farm.
This is entirely unacceptable. There is a LOT of things for level 50 characters to do and using the BAF or Lambda as a simple gate - do it once to open the stuff and then get my threads, merit or whatever randomass currency of the week is decided upon through doing WHAT I WANT TO - is how this game has been played for 7 years.
Hell, add it to the reward table for the WTF and I would be happy. This is what people are saying and wanting - you let me unlock it - fine - then let ME choose how I get the shiney - don't force me to farm a Dev approved farm.
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I'm not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse or what but you keep missing many points made by posters. You can't seem to get away from solo players being catered to but Dis already laid out various other reasons why someone could not run the trials. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It's just not going to convince me because I don't see any reason the solo player should get these rewards at all.
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It's pretty sad you want to prevent others from obtaining the goods in a reasonable amount of time. It's very petty of you.
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Then you are making comparisons across a difference of kind, which is fallacious.
| The market throws a lot of variables into the discussion that we have to ignore because the incarnate components cannot be bought on the market. |
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As a player of other game I can assure you this is no copy and paste. This is a much more hilariously enjoyable raid system. It's like comparing a dogs frisbee catching to a skeet shooter..
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Positron clearly said that they wouldn't bother with an end game system if it were to be a copy and paste from other end game systems. But this end game system has too many similarities with end game systems existing in the market. But also older end game system designs.
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Only the upper 2 level shifts are restricted to trials, all other bonuses/powers works everywhere else.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
They were designed for the content, rewarded by the content, and provide bonuses only available for that content.
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Maybe that's the disconnect. You view these as trial only bonuses while others view the incarnate levels/slots as akin to a new powerset you can use in content of your choosing.
Maybe some people's difference comes down to perception of the system maybe? But to me, just like actual powersets, i consider the incarnate slots general content (as opposed to story/lore content) meaning it's something people can do in-game to extend their gaming enjoyment of new and even existing content.
I know i can go through the same content i've gone through before with renewed enthusiasm simply because i'm using new powersets to go through them.
That got me curious.
As the saying goes, walk a mile in another person's shoes so...what if instead of trying to get the devs to reduce the disparity between trial and non-trial payouts by lowering the shard conversion method...they instead increased the trial payouts to closer match the non-trial one.
Such as...if it takes 2.7 years to get everything for non-trial, make the trial payouts for the same thing take 1.5 years. Trials would still be faster but the complaints might double i think hehe.
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And those other reasons are unfortunate, but they do not require people to be catered to. Ultra mode doesn't work on low end computers, these players opt out of the entire system. There's nothing that can be done for them because they choose not to save up for a better system. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
I'm not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse or what but you keep missing many points made by posters. You can't seem to get away from solo players being catered to but Dis already laid out various other reasons why someone could not run the trials.
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Whatever your reasons, if you choose not to be part of the content that gives you these rewards, then you shouldn't get them.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
It's pretty sad you want to prevent others from obtaining the goods in a reasonable amount of time. It's very petty of you.
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Fine. Show me the alternate path to earning patron pool powers if I don't want to be a villain. How much longer does that take than the method where I become a villain?
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Originally Posted by Venture
Then you are making comparisons across a difference of kind, which is fallacious.
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Nobody needs this stuff. We want it.
If you want it, you have to earn it. There is a path to earn it. If you don't like that path, you can go the other way. It's longer.
I want PvP IOs, but I don't want to PvP. I am forced to do tip missions until I obtain them. I'm ok with that. If I wanted the shinies of the end game without participating in the end game, I'd be ok with the long way I've chosen to play.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.