The real difference between Trial and non-Trial Incarnate Advancement
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 09:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Kinda like purples. Or very desirable rares. Or PVP IOs. Right?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
So? Very rares should not be seen as a realistic goal for someone who refuses to engage in group content. It's possible, but unrealistic.
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For a game that's prided itself on being open and accessible to it's player base, this is something of a rude shock for people.
I'm fairly sure that 2-2.5 YEARS isn't what some people would consider "accessible".
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I was not speaking about you personally Claws. I just find it funny that this is all in the "For Fun" section and I see a ton of barbed arrow flinging around like a spines scrapper on autofire.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not taking any of this personally.
I have way too much else going on in my life to be mortally offended that someone disagrees with my opinion about a video game. I only post on my breaks at work, when I get home I have better things to do so I put it aside until my next break at work the next day. Nothing personal about it, for me at least. I can't speak for anyone else though, and it does seem like a number of people are taking it personally. Relax.....it's only words on your computer screen.....they can't hurt you if you remember that. |
Im not taking anything personal, as I try to only speak on in game observations I see.
Just many threads are being derailed because of debates going on in other threads. Which detracts from the original question and or comentary this and other threads were focusing on.
Thats what I was getting at mainly. But I am aware thats how forums go.
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Yes, of course. Why would anyone take people questioning their sanity, their psychological health, their intelligence and their personal integrity, err... Personally. Those are just words on a computer screen. Forget socialising with people. They're just pixels on the screen, there for me to achieve my goals. They don't have goals, because they don't matter and I suspect they aren't actually real people. Just names on a screen, you know? Why should I care about anything they have to say, or how they feel, or what they care about.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Relax.....it's only words on your computer screen.....they can't hurt you if you remember that.
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I mean, it's not like this is a social game or anything. It's not like being part of a greater community is a big selling point. Yeah, people have been saying that for years now, but that doesn't make them right. After all, who gives a toss about them? They're just words on a computer screen. It's not like there are real people behind them or anything, hell no!
What other people say, think or do doesn't matter. Except when it does. Curiously, it seems like we can have it both ways. I'm still not sure how that goes, but maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to decide when other people matter and I should socialise with them, and when they don't matter and I should feel proud to ignore them without being branded an anti-social pariah, not that I'm bitter or anything.
But I'm learning. You live and you learn, right?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Someone calling for me?
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Originally Posted by Nyx
I just find it funny that this is all in the "For Fun" section and I see a ton of barbed arrow flinging around like a spines scrapper on autofire.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Think of me as Geneva. I am really quite neutral to all of this and the post I found interesting in this was Nihilii's post.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Someone calling for me?
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It gave me something to read and helped me understand "The real difference between Trial, and non-Trial Incarnate Advancement".
Again, as for Claws, and you Sam, I am indifferent between much of that discussion. I see both your points and Im not calling out anyone. But derailing posts like Nihilii's post seems sort of a waste to me when at least I got something out of it.
I like both of you guys. Actually I have no forum dislikes and a completely empty ignore box, because frankly, Ill debate things, but Im definately not going to attack someone.
You have given me good advice in the past. Claws gave me some good advice yesterday, and Nihilii game me some data.
I just hate having to cut through a pithy rind in order to get to the fruit.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
The thing that is sending me red-flags is that no developer actually *part* of the design process is willing to even try to defend this POS design paradigm. They know its garbage and that they are forcing people into grinding and they (for some unfathomable reason) don't *CARE*.
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Okay, I dislike the fact that soloers are penalized so heavily compared to trial grinders as well. But this is an unfair accusation.
You're trying to take the devs to task at 5PM on a Sunday because they haven't responded to a thread that was started this same Sunday at noon.
If the devs are doing anything game-related this weekend, they're probably PLAYING it. Not browsing the forums.
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Good luck with that. PR departments, campaign managers and other "spin" managers have jobs for a reason. It's because they get results. If you want to ignore people's (often irrational) responses to things, you're going to learn that, quite often, you will not get their support, money or sponsorship.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
While your post was very insightful, might I ask, if a person is so emotionally fragile as to be insulted over a game design decision, why should any care about them any in terms of designing said game.
The peeps that want to be insulted and mad will ALWAYS find a way to be insulted and mad. I say ignore 'em. |
It's one thing to completely lose one's objectivity while worrying what people will think. It's another to ignore what people think all together, even if what they will think is illogical.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Everyone is dancing around the issue at hand in multiple threads. Positron designed an end game system that looks exactly like other end game systems. His goal before undertaking this project was to make this end game system different from the others.
I'll wait to see the completion of the Incarnate content before stating my opinion if he succeeded with his goal or not, but so far not looking good at all.
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False. PUG raids completing your content on the first day is unheard of in other games. I assure you that in many other games if raids as accessible as BAF or Lambda went live, there would be howling and denunciations from the hardcore crowd.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Positron designed an end game system that looks exactly like other end game systems.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Positron clearly said that they wouldn't bother with an end game system if it were to be a copy and paste from other end game systems. But this end game system has too many similarities with end game systems existing in the market. But also older end game system designs.
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I'm with the Uber Guy on this one. This is one reason why I've been so adamant about speaking my mind and why I've encouraged others to do so, even in the absence of logic and even in the absence of supporting arguments. Because sometimes how people "feel" and what they get out of a product is in itself useful information to a development team that knows how to interpret that and what might be causing specific reactions.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Good luck with that. PR departments, campaign managers and other "spin" managers have jobs for a reason. It's because they get results. If you want to ignore people's (often irrational) responses to things, you're going to learn that, quite often, you will not get their support, money or sponsorship.
It's one thing to completely lose one's objectivity while worrying what people will think. It's another to ignore what people think all together, even if what they will think is illogical. |
This in no way means I expect anything any of us say here to be taken as-is and implemented onto anything, that's not the point of feedback. The point of feedback is to give back impressions and experiences. What the team actually makes of those is entirely out of the players' hands. As it should be.
*edit*
Rather, as I'd like it to be.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's all good. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I apologise if that came off as a personal attack to you. It wasn't meant to be one. But at some point yesterday, I realised that I was tired of being vilified on the forums.
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Villifying someone on the forum to me is like villifying the checkout lady at the super market because the store ran out of Chicken Nuggets. She could not control the chicken nugget consumption, and yet, she is the target of said Spines scrappers who like processed foods. It's not pretty, and it's not right!
Oppinions...are the new Chicken Nuggets!
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Correct indeed! I'm so burnt it's not even funny. All this talk is just for one 50. What if all your toons are 50? I noticed for paralytic tier 3 that I need 100 million in infuence, 100 threads, and three or 4 rares. to get to tier 4 I have to double that! This is just too much for my mind to fathom and this is just one of my 50s! After doing so many of these 2 incarnate trials... I had to quit. |
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
And when people who normally would do a variety of things to progress, suddenly gets stuck doing 2, then they get a form of culture shock. It might even hasten burnout and not just in the trials but the game overall, but that's an unknown this early in.
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From now on whatever happens... happens and I'm not focusing on these trials any longer. It's overkill! I'll play my 50's when and how I feel like it and do whatever I please... as it should be!!!! Only now my options are more limited because EVERYONE is doing incarnate trials over and over til they puke!
and what's it all for anyway? you only level shift in the trials. in cimerora you can't say +4 because you're really not level shifted anywhere else but those two trials...
looks like my 50s will be mediocre by incarnate standards... but they'll be happy.
Madame Nemesis
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Couldn't have said it better myself. It's posts like this that make me miss the rep system, so +1 Rep to you, sir.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
We don't need Inventions. We don't need to be level 50. That's a non-point. People want these things, and a large number of them are going to strive for them.
I simply don't agree. In brutal honesty, if they don't really want soloing one's way to this stuff to be viable, they simply shouldn't offer the option. Offering something that is, roughly based on what we're seeing discussed in this thread, 10 times less efficient is, in my opinion, going to insult people. I don't buy into the notion that offering people an alternative way to progress, no matter how unattractive is a feature worthy of note in any but the most literal of ways. Proof is impossible here, because this is not an objective matter. Asking for proof of such a subjective situation is tantamount to trying to dismiss the discussion, because no one will ever "prove" what they enjoy or hate. This topic is a convolution of game mechanics and play preferences. Basically, the people who don't share the same preferences as the unhappy people are trying to dismiss their opinions about how they like to play, or the goals they like to pursue when they do so. There are certainly playstyles that are so far outside the norm that low performance has to be expected. Soloing in this game has not been one of those for a very long time, if ever. To set expectations here, I am not worried about barriers to Incarnate progress for myself. I have access to a core of players who are already dominating this content. I have unlocked all four new slots on a character already, and have taken three of that character's slots to Very Rare, and the other to Rare, meaning I have both Incarnate shifts. I'm now ready to move on to another character, probably long before most people have unlocked all four slots on one character. All that said, I still wish there was a way to make progress on the slots and shards that wasn't ridiculously slower, not because I don't want to team, but because I don't want to team all the time. I want to progress towards the new shiny, but I don't want to run Trials all day to do it. I want to do other stuff, too. And sure, technically I can do other stuff and make progress, but the rate of progress I make doing so is completely lost in the noise. It's so much slower that it's almost not even worth measuring. I think it's notable that this is true on characters who are radically powerful. I would guess my level 50 characters are easily in the top 10% of solo performers for their AT and powersets. Despite this, the rate at which they earn any incarnate progress solo isn't just "slower" than what I earn on trials. It's so much slower that it's ignorable. It such a worse option that there is nothing that would compel me to chose it over running trials, since I have that option. If that's true for me, and my characters really are in the top 10% of performers, then 90% of the other people playing would find it even less compelling to do anything but run the new trials if they want to progress towards Incarnate abilities. Whether I or anyone needs these abilities to play is just completely beside the point. I16's difficulty settings ensured that I can make good use of them on many characters whether I need them or not. The whole point of them being in the game is that they make our characters stronger, and stronger characters are, for me and many others, goals for their own sake. Giving us extremely narrow playstyle options for how to pursue such goals after seven years of extremely flexible choices was bound to chafe part of the player base. Some folks are being pretty darn obtuse about it, but I very much understand where at least some of them are coming from. |
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And someone just said how you guys are dismissive.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Arcanaville has questioned those "calculations." I don't believe them either.
Show me some real evidence. Then we'll talk. |
What Arcanaville questioned was the comparison between running trials and running task forces. She was questioning the numbers behind how many shards you can get doing task forces compared to how many you get doing trials in the same amount of time, or the rate at which threads drop.
What cannot be questioned or dismissed is how long it would take a player to unlock things with just shards. And that is the amount that is completely ludicrous. Because I feel like you'll just ignore or dismiss it again if I don't, I'll give you the numbers again.
It takes 10,070 threads to get everything completed without components. This is something that a trial-spamming player can attain in less than a week. For the sake of simplicity I'll mostly leave influence out of this, but it should be noted that the 10,070 shards and iXP and conversions costs around four billion influence.
10,070 threads takes 2.7 years to convert into threads. It doesn't matter if you're getting the minimum required 10 shards per day, every day, or you're earning 50 of them per day (which is unrealistic for virtually all players). 10 shards per day means 10,070 / 10 = 1007 days which is 2.75 years. The 10:10 conversion rate is only once per day.
Now let's imagine you throw in a 10:5 supplement daily. You have to earn 20 shards a day to get 15 threads now. Besides increasing your inf cost, you double your shard requirements daily. Now, 10,070 / 15 = 1.8 years. It still takes around 2 years to actually complete the system which trial spammers can complete in under a week, without spending any inf (unlike you, who are up to around 5-6b inf required).
Let's just leap into total insanity here and assume you can somehow farm 50 shards per day. Converting those would be 10 at 10:10 and 40 at 10:5, for a total of 30 threads per day. 10,070 / 30 = 0.92. Or 11 months. With a completely unrealistic expectation that you would somehow spend the time to earn 50 shards per day for 11 months straight, and have the many billions it would take.
So there are your calculations. No matter which way you slice it you're looking at completely unrealistic expectations. Even at the base level you're looking at 2.7 years and billions of inf. Shortening the time involved (which would still take nearly at year even at "omgwtfbbq" levels of farming) only drastically increases the effort required.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Ok, that's great. Now justify why the casual players needs these shinies, and why these are different than other shinies.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
So there are your calculations. No matter which way you slice it you're looking at completely unrealistic expectations. Even at the base level you're looking at 2.7 years and billions of inf. Shortening the time involved (which would still take nearly at year even at "omgwtfbbq" levels of farming) only drastically increases the effort required.
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It's been said before with IOs and purple IOs and PvP IOs and hami-Os. These things are very rare. They are specific rewards for specific things. If you want those rewards, you do those specific things. Villain merits will allow you to get one PvP IO after 60 days of running tips. You can have one PvP set in one year. You can have one Very Rare incarnate ability in less than that.
Show me the disparity.
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I have a counter-question to you: Why do people want wide-screen plasma TVs when simple CRTs can still display most everything? Why do people want luxury cars when any old banger will still drive you most everywhere you need?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Ok, that's great. Now justify why the casual players needs these shinies, and why these are different than other shinies.
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I'll go one even simpler - why do people play video games when there is precisely nothing to be gained from doing so, any more than can be gained from sitting down and twiddling your thumbs?
"Why do people need this?" Is a facetious, to say nothing of irrelevant questions, which is tantamount to dismissing the entire argument out of hand. People want these things because people want nice things.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Uh I don't think casual players are trying to access this end-game content. Most casual players don't even have 50s. If what you're asking is why solo players or people who can't or don't want to run trials should have access to this system, it's because the devs already expressed multiple times that they're taking into consideration the solo player and the advancement methods available to them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Ok, that's great. Now justify why the casual players needs these shinies, and why these are different than other shinies.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Conservatively it takes 50 shards to unlock a slot. Times 4 that's 200 shards. To slot a common takes 60 shards; an uncommon another 100. So to get uncommons in each slot takes 840 shards. Or about three months if you're converting every day (assuming you aren't sitting on any shards right now). Those uncommons get you the vast majority of the benefits of the four slots. You get a very strong nuke, good debuff, nice buff and a couple of pets. All the rares/very rares get you is bigger numbers.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
It takes 10,070 threads to get everything completed without components. This is something that a trial-spamming player can attain in less than a week. For the sake of simplicity I'll mostly leave influence out of this, but it should be noted that the 10,070 shards and iXP and conversions costs around four billion influence.
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For someone who refuses to EVER run a trial, that's not even nearly unreasonable to me.
You all have accused me of all kinds of horribles, but really don't you see how unreasonable your position is? Sure the devs picked a system that is grindy to excess. I'm not happy about their choice of a conversion path. I think it would have been better and more honest just to not have such a path. When I first saw these numbers, I immediately foresaw exactly the complaining that has ensued. I don't even think you all are wrong in your essential point.
But at the same time, continually quoting that 10,070 number is just as disingenuous to me. The trials have such a low time commitment that the only reasons I will acknowledge that someone could not ever do a trial would be the population on their server and their hardware. Both are regrettable, but also fixable by the player. When we add just one BAF to our poor shard converter we remove a minimum of 56 shards from the total as well as get free iXP. If one were lucky (as I was in earning a very rare on my first successful trial) you could remove hundreds from the total.
Your argument makes an assumption of an extreme case. A person who never can complete a trial. When you make a more reasonable assumption, say one Lambda and BAF in a week, then the time to complete drops precipitously.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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This endgame system is so unlike the endgame raiding of other games it's hard to imagine that you've ever actually raided in other games.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Positron clearly said that they wouldn't bother with an end game system if it were to be a copy and paste from other end game systems. But this end game system has too many similarities with end game systems existing in the market. But also older end game system designs.
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I've played games where you are expected to wipe repeatedly, dozens of times or more in service of learning an encounter. Think about that. A raid where 24-25 people should expect to spend hours of game time dying repeatedly before they have a shot at getting any reward at all. Then consider that right after that, you move on to the next named and repeat the process. A raid dungeon that can take months of failure before the raid force is geared and skilled enough to complete it regularly.
And we're not talking about a pick-up group. We're talking about a well crafted team where everyone knows each other, knows their role, and are using voice programs like Ventrilo or Teamspeak to communicate. We're talking about groups that have core groups of their best players who are the only ones allowed to even go on the raids of the new bosses. Other players are not allowed in until the guild has the boss on farm status.
And then, after all that, the raid bosses drop perhaps 2-5 pieces of gear for a raid of 24-25. Maybe a token that you can trade 40-50 of for a piece of consolation gear. Where we have people at T4 in all slots within a week, you looking at months, sometimes a year of raiding just to get your main team geared up. Then an expansion hits and you start all over again.
That's what Positron was trying to avoid, and gosh darnit, he did a magnificent job in doing so.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Actually it takes 30 shards per slot for Interface or Judgement, and 45 shards per slot for Lore and Destiny. But I already had the "value of common/uncommon vs VR" discussion in another thread and showed about the worth of each level compared to its full strength. For Judgement I would tend to agree that uncommon is "enough" depending on exactly how much value you place into certain bonuses (I personally don't consider +8 max targets worth going to VR for). For the other slots I would not.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Conservatively it takes 50 shards to unlock a slot. Times 4 that's 200 shards. To slot a common takes 60 shards; an uncommon another 100. So to get uncommons in each slot takes 840 shards. Or about three months if you're converting every day (assuming you aren't sitting on any shards right now). Those uncommons get you the vast majority of the benefits of the four slots. You get a very strong nuke, good debuff, nice buff and a couple of pets. All the rares/very rares get you is bigger numbers.
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For someone who refuses to EVER run a trial, that's not even nearly unreasonable to me. ... Your argument makes an assumption of an extreme case. A person who never can complete a trial. When you make a more reasonable assumption, say one Lambda and BAF in a week, then the time to complete drops precipitously. |
Besides people who can't run the trials there are people who would rather solo, rather play with small groups of friends, rather run other content, live on a small server where people aren't really doing these trials, or simply don't enjoy the trials. You're basically insisting that numerous groups of people run content they simply don't enjoy or even have access to for one reason or another. Even if my computer ran the trials flawlessly, I wouldn't get enjoyment out of doing the same two tasks over and over for the 4-6 incarnates I have. And I'm privileged enough to call Virtue home, so finding a team there is no problem.
Obviously the best way to get the stuff is to run the trials, but that's completely the point. If you aren't in the group that can A) easily run the trials, and B) genuinely enjoys running them over and over again, you flat out lose and cannot access this new system in any reasonable time-frame with any reasonable amount of effort.
What exactly is unreasonable about expecting more than one specific mindset of players to be able to access the new system?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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With Interface, I would agree with you to an extent. There is a substantial step up in power there. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
Actually it takes 30 shards per slot for Interface or Judgement, and 45 shards per slot for Lore and Destiny. But I already had the "value of common/uncommon vs VR" discussion in another thread and showed about the worth of each level compared to its full strength. For Judgement I would tend to agree that uncommon is "enough" depending on exactly how much value you place into certain bonuses (I personally don't consider +8 max targets worth going to VR for). For the other slots I would not.
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| People keep throwing around words like "refuse" as if everyone who doesn't run a trial is some huge jerk. There are people with worse computers than me. |
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| Besides people who can't run the trials there are people who would rather solo, rather play with small groups of friends, rather run other content, live on a small server where people aren't really doing these trials, or simply don't enjoy the trials. |
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| What exactly is unreasonable about expecting more than one specific mindset of players to be able to access the new system? |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I didn't ignore it, I just addressed it. You might not need to go the full 4x VR, but even cutting the work in half is still more than a year's worth of grinding. In particular, Lore and Destiny gain significant advantages at each additional level (Lore Radial is possibly arguable depending on how much you value unkillable pets). Interface grows at each level.
Even if you only got one very rare and left the others at rare, with maybe one at uncommon, it's still more than a year of effort.
The reason I use the 10,070 is because A) it's much easier to identify (because if I pick x rares and y uncommons people would argue about which ones I chose and why all day), B) easily shows how the solo player is required to spend years on content which trial spammers can literally obtain in less than a week. Keep in mind any levels you remove from the solo player just means it's exponentially easier for the trial spammers to obtain. If you take off VRs you can reduce months of effort from the solo player. At the same time you can also make the comparison something someone wanders into a trial accidentally obtains in one evening. If you like we can use that instead. "Solo players are required to grind for 8 months for something I accidentally got yesterday when I thought I was joining a task force."
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I am a casual player. I play about 10 hours a week tops.
I play a lot early in the day East Coast Time.
I am a notoriously bad player. I frequently have the highest amount of deaths on most task forces.
I like to solo.
And even I can unlock all 5 slots and drop an enhancement in each. Even I can survive a trial. Even I get on Trial Leagues.
I've invested 5 hours total on these trials over two weeks and that's where I'm at.
Casual Players can do this.
I've been on one failed Lambda and zero failed BAFs. The BAFs take 30 minutes each and are much less mind numbing than ITF shard runs.
It's not that bad people. You don't even have to enjoy it. It's so easy and time friendly.
If you just flat out don't ever ever ever want to join a trial, fine. BUT...
You don't have to run them over and over again. I've run 7 total. Everything's unlocked and slotted.
They are not hard. I''m 6 for 7 and I suck.
They are not time consuming. It took me longer to unlock and slot my Alpha then all FOUR of my i20 slots.
I'm not opposed to other options at all. But for now, this is a super easy casual experience. You'd have to be seriously team phobic to not do these trials a few times just to get the unlocks and rewards.
I'd love to see another path, but even with my severe time limitations and lack of game prowess I can handle this. I'm pretty sure the rest of you can too. Until there's another option.
I have way too much else going on in my life to be mortally offended that someone disagrees with my opinion about a video game. I only post on my breaks at work, when I get home I have better things to do so I put it aside until my next break at work the next day.
Nothing personal about it, for me at least. I can't speak for anyone else though, and it does seem like a number of people are taking it personally.
Relax.....it's only words on your computer screen.....they can't hurt you if you remember that.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.