The real difference between Trial and non-Trial Incarnate Advancement

A couple of bucks a month, what type of upgrade will allow someone to play in UM for $24?

So you feel the current optional path of converting shards to threads, which can take up to 2.7 years to complete, is a reasonable amount of time?

If they were designed simply for the content, then why do they work in other content? Rewarding them only for the content is an arbitrary decision that could easily be changed without affecting either the reward or the content, so your argument falls apart right there. The level shifts only applying to that content does make sense, since the game has always assumed you'd be fighting at least even-cons. The -1 setting is a concession to poor soloists. I don't begrudge them this concession, but since some purple farmers also ran on -1 for moar speed, I don't think any further concessions need to be made. As it is, running at +0 with the Alpha level shift is so stupid I'm never joining an end-game TF that isn't formed by me or someone who shares this opinion ever again.

No, we have to not ignore it, because it is one way in which Incarnate components are different from other rewards. If a hami raid needs more controllers but you want an HO for your Scrapper, you bring a controller and give the HO to your Scrapper. If a BAF needs more controllers but you want the rewards for your Scrapper you are SoL. The existence of the market means that you can earn tradeable rewards in any way you want. Non-tradeable rewards are inherently limiting in how they are earned, which is part of the reason it's so problematic that they are being limited even more.

If you look at A-merits as strictly a solo option, yes, although the occasional merit reward can supplement the daily tips and speed the process up some. If you look at the A-merits as "earning PvP IOs through some means other than PvP" then you can include team activities such as task forces, which would greatly speed up merit generation.

But there aren't, and haven't been for a long time, so your point is moot. Even if there were....let's say it takes you an hour a day to run your tips. The PvP IO drop rate is so low that I doubt you'd get the ones you need in a year of PvPing for an hour a day.

Again, how long will it take for me to get full sets of PvP IOs into my character via tips?

EVERY SINGLE PUG pocket D BAF that I have been on has invited 24 players first come first served. We have stalkers we have petless masterminds, nobody cares.

nobody. And its amazing because we still can win as long as people follow some simple direction, which so far has been the case.

When the STF, LRST, ITF, tinmage, and apex came out teams got made with a specific AT loadouts in more cases than not. I dont see that at all with the BAF.

To me this new content is so much better than anything we have had previously that all this talk about solo or only 8 mans is pretty silly. But I do think the next content patch will contain something for the people that for some reason just want to do the old stuff. There is no reason not to other than lack of dev time.

PvP IOs work in PvE content. Are they not PvP IOs anymore?

Yes it would, but you're still asking for the additional time it would take to earn 50 merits and twenty million influence every day. The tips were comparable to farming 10 shards per day. Adding the extra merits and influence is skewing the comparison.

Stop deflecting and answer my question.

Yes, because I don't believe having all four Very Rares is a reasonable expectation of a solo player.

Why?

Aren't you solo on your uber videos?

Yes, I am. And I earned my rewards to do those things in team content.

Your point?

Solo players, players with poor tech and players who prefer not to team with 15-23 others should have that same opportunity. 2.7 years is not a reasonable time frame for them to obtain the current incarnate abilities/slots.

Right now, I just see some kid on the play ground that refuses to share their ball because THEY bought it. It's selfish.


I'm still waiting for you to explain this sentence..."Yes, because I don't believe having all four Very Rares is a reasonable expectation of a solo player. "

Why shouldn't a solo player have those Very Rares? Please explain. It surely cannot be because they want to fight +4/x8 right? Or solo AVs?

I'm all about sharing my ball. I run TFs and let my tank lead and make the game easier for every other player that doesn't have such a good build.

But to hell with anyone who feels they should have a ball handed to them because I can buy one.

Sure they are but....wait....could it be....you can earn them in a reasonable time frame through MEANS OUTSIDE PVP?!!!?!!!11!!

So you earn 10 shards in half an hour now? I guess some people do, but those are the anomalously high earners. They're more comparable to people who do their daily tips in 15-20 minutes. So you'd need to earn 10 shards in 15-20 minutes. Go.

Deliberately comparing the LEAST efficient non-PvP method of earning PvP IOs to the MOST efficient non-trial method of earning Incarnate rewards does not prove anything.

Handed to them? Are you being like this because you are bored at work or something?

There is a middle ground between 2.7 years and 'handed to them.' Common sense here Dechs.

Again, it'll take me comparatively as long to obtain my PvP IOs outside of PvP.

Takes me about an hour and a half to run my five tips, considering the time it takes to find the tips in the first place. Two hours for the days I need to run a morality mission. That's more than enough time to earn 10 shards.

Again, it's not reasonable to have the top end stuff if you're not going to do the content to get it. Stop throwing around the 2.7 years. It's unreasonably long because it's an unreasonable goal.

It's unreasonable for me to take years to obtain all my PvP IOs through unreasonable means. I'm ok with that.

Isn't it obvious that many of the people objecting to the design object to this very observation?

I have a hard time seeing "the devs made it this way" as a useful rebuttal to "I don't like how the devs made this."

So how about "the devs made it this way for all other content, yet I don't see you complaining about that" as a rebuttal.

Oh I see now. So because someone can't be involved in the trials, they are not allowed to have access to the new character progression...at least in your view point. I would say that's selfish attitude.

You can't do it, you shouldn't have access to it! Neener neener neener!

Irrelevant. Just because you are ok with your limits and the limits in the game has no bearing on the Incarnate System. Perhaps you complacency is one of the reasons why the PVP IOs remain out of reach.

Lastly, please stop comparing PvP IOs to the Incarnate System. They are not a comparable analog.

No one can't be involved in the trials. They all choose not to be.

I'm going to continue comparing to the PvP IOs because they are a comparable analog.

Then you're not being efficient about running your tips. If you're being equally inefficient about earning shards, it'll take more than two hours.

They are tradeable, which in and of itself makes them a bad analogy.

A SUBSET of the INVENTION SYSTEM is not a comparative analog to the ENTIRE INCARNATE SYSTEM.

Ah, but why would you care? As long as you get your shinies, the hell with anyone that plays differently.

That they are... and they are available, what three(?) different ways (pvp drops, alignment merits, on the market).

Multiple avenues, none of the particularly easy, but mutiple and attainable by any player regardless of play style choices.


I think I am done with this discussion overall. It is getting just a tad... no, completely ridiculous on all sides.


If the Devs would publicly offer anything resembling an intent statement or design roadmap it would stop the player base from ravaging itself. Yet, apparently, after this much angst and wailing, to me it is clearly what they must want this for some reason that I just cannot fathom.

Then honestly your opinion on the subject is basically meaningless, as it directly contradicts the devs' intention with this system. If your argument is "I don't feel it takes too long because they shouldn't get it in the first place," that doesn't help the devs figure out how fast solo players should be getting it. And they do intend for solo players to get it, whether you like it or not.

The devs' intention is for solo players to be able to obtain the new incarnate stuff, but not as fast as people doing the "intended" method. If it's currently too fast, too slow, or too hard to get is the argument. "They shouldn't get it at all" does not help to answer that question and essentially has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

"You shouldn't even have a cup" isn't an answer to "is the cup half empty or half full?"

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I would immediately shoot down that rebuttal as factually inaccurate. Nothing else has the participation restriction that the trials do for equivalent rate of acquisition.

Let's imagine for a minute that you could have all the PvP foes you could ever want, and could actually defeat them very consistently (though not as consistently as just farming AFK characters). How many hours of play do you think it would take you to get, say, 12 specific PvPOs as drops? How long, on average, do you think it would take you to sell PvPOs you get on the market and use that to buy the PvPOs you actually want, but didn't get?

Now, let's ask another question. What PvPOs provide functions that cannot be had any other way than to own those specific PvPOs? Even if one successfully makes the argument that PvPO earning progress is inextricably tied to PvPing (something I think the market and Alignment Merits both bring into doubt), can we really make the argument that not PvPing (and therefore ostensibly not having access to PvPOs) actually prevents progress? While it's true that certain build configurations may not be possible, how strong is the general argument that one needs access to PvPOs to meaningfully approach the best of the best builds? How does a high-end IO build that lacks PvPOs compare and contrast with the level of performance of someone who has the Rare Incarnate powers and someone who does not?

So no, I'm sorry, I find the rebuttal weak because the analogy you're using as its basis is so tenuous.