Hmmm, nukes are looking less attractive.
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-04-08 11:07 in Suggestions and Ideas
I very much agree. Nukes haven't had much attention, correct me if I'm wrong, since the target cap was implemented. A nuke that can level a ZONE's worth of foes in a dumpster? Worth a crash. A nuke that can take out one group of foes? Not seeing it. Heck, I wouldn't mind if they left the -recovery and just removed the -end.
C'mon devs, I have rain of Arrows and it isn't 'overpowered.' Let the other sets feel the fun of toasting foes and not having to hang back! 
Also, while you're looking at tier 9 blasts- full auto. Narrow cone, max. 9 targets. C'mon, guys- some extra spread and the 16 target treatment would help assault rifle a LOT.
the only downside to judgement would be that the dmg is not buffable outside of the alpha boost
other than that i agree with everything (judgement does not crash but only takes about 20 end points to activate)
I agree and hope for change in this area as well. I love my lvl 50 Blaster and he levels things fast with his 2 AoE attacks. He can wipe out a spawn of same lvl enemies with Energy Torrent/Explosive Blast/Energy Torrent and risk less than running into the middle of the enemies and waiting for the animation to go off. Not to mention the crash which will make it so I don't attack anything else for a decent amount of time. I carry blues and use them but why bother with it if I can get a more consistent crashless wipe of the enemies without dealing with my toggles crashing and needing to be retoggled. I RARELY get into the intended situation it was made for of "OMG I'm gunna die if I don't hit this" and when I do I realize that I use it so rarely that I often forget to use it or still don't consider the benefit with the end loss. I mean Dying causes just as much end loss... Why not try and hash it out and maybe survive vs. guaranteed uslessness as would occur in death....
Seriouly, not worth anything other than a purple filler most of the time to me. Very sad because I love the power and don't even factor in the Incarnate powers making it less useful because I already don't use it. Even with really high recharge on my blaster I don't consider the end crash as valuable as the damage I inflict with my end bar full.
I would consider as well something along the lines of dropping end to 20% a better alternative or maybe a larger target cap but I still doubt I'd see situations where that'd be useful if I lost all my end. The blasters benefit on the team is damage dealing. When the blaster has no endurance the blasters benefit goes out with his/her end bar.
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Because you get it at level 32 and not at level 50 and only after going through some difficult content multiple times?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Now that Judgement exists, nukes are quickly becoming all downside with very little upside. Judgement: 1)Recharges faster than any crashing nuke. 2)Deals more damage than most of them. 3)Not positive on this, but I don't believe it kills your end bar either. Why would anyone take a power that kills your end bar every time you use it, and takes 5 minutes to recharge, when there is an alternative that doesn't crash your end and recharges in a minute and a half? |
Don't get me wrong, if they improved the nuke powers to be more blaster friendly, I'd be all for it. But let's not compare apples and oranges here, either. After I take the nuke at level 32 and get it slotted up, I have it and it's very useful to a blaster (especially one who teams or who has some sort of cheaty way of regaining END quickly).
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One could say that it's easier for a level 50 to obtain a base judgement 'nuke' than it is for a new character to gain their level 32/38 nuke.|
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Because you get it at level 32 and not at level 50 and only after going through some difficult content multiple times?
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The Judgement powers are great for destroying mobs quickly, the only downside that you won't have the ability to do so for another minute and a half. Still, they can just keep on doing what they do, and this is not 'unbalanced.'
If such is the case, then how is doing so to a lesser degree earlier from your 'ultimate' blast unbalanced? Out of pure, honest curiosity, I'm just wondering what makes a level 32 blast's crash a balance necessity? I'm especially curious in light of the judgement's treatment.
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I would agree with this. The crashes on powers don't seem balanced anymore (and actually haven't for a while). I can understand some kind of crash, but a complete crash makes little sense.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
One could say that it's easier for a level 50 to obtain a base judgement 'nuke' than it is for a new character to gain their level 32/38 nuke.
The Judgement powers are great for destroying mobs quickly, the only downside that you won't have the ability to do so for another minute and a half. Still, they can just keep on doing what they do, and this is not 'unbalanced.' If such is the case, then how is doing so to a lesser degree earlier from your 'ultimate' blast unbalanced? Out of pure, honest curiosity, I'm just wondering what makes a level 32 blast's crash a balance necessity? I'm especially curious in light of the judgement's treatment. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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It made sense back when they were hands down the most powerful attacks in the game, but that hasn't been the case for quite some time in all reality. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I would agree with this. The crashes on powers don't seem balanced anymore (and actually haven't for a while). I can understand some kind of crash, but a complete crash makes little sense.
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Recharge time on a nuke is 360 seconds.
Recharge on Judgement is 90 seconds.
The base damage on a nuke ranges from 300 to 500 enhanceable damage.
Judgement (from what I hear) does around 480, which puts it at the higher end of that spectrum. If you equip Musculature it will deal between 790 and 1080 damage (depending on the tier)
A nuke can hit up to 16 targets.
Judgement (at tier 4) can hit up to 40 targets.
A nuke will crash your end bar.
Judgement will NOT crash your end bar.
Now, looking at it like that, given a choice between them, which one are you going to pick? And let's not forget that Judgement is available to ANY AT, not just those who have a blast set as a primary or secondary.
And, in a situation where you have both powers and you can use one or the other, which are you more likely to use? I'd use the one that will hit more targets, do more damage (maybe), and still leave me with enough endurance to keep any important toggles running.
After Judgement becomes commonplace, it will be rare to see a level 50 Incarnate that even still HAS their nuke, let alone see one that still USES it. That may not be the case if they didn't fully crash your endurance, but if left as-is it almost certainly will be.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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But it's not an alternative.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Why would anyone take a power that kills your end bar every time you use it, and takes 5 minutes to recharge, when there is an alternative that doesn't crash your end and recharges in a minute and a half?
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Regardless of the existance of Judgement slots or not Nukes need to be redone to remove the crash. It's just a silly limitation of those powers nowadays.
Let their Recharge, Damage etc being the balancers for nukes, this imposed crash is silly. Forts have had access to proper crashless nukes for 8 issues now and they're fine. Nice powers, suitable for a tier 9 power but not overpowered really.
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I don't see the need for removing the crash from nukes myself, but as long as I get a freespec I'll be OK with it.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Regardless of the existance of Judgement slots or not Nukes need to be redone to remove the crash. It's just a silly limitation of those powers nowadays.
Let their Recharge, Damage etc being the balancers for nukes, this imposed crash is silly. Forts have had access to proper crashless nukes for 8 issues now and they're fine. Nice powers, suitable for a tier 9 power but not overpowered really. |
Slotting Endmod in Adrenalin Boost and Drain Psyche will become pretty useless.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I was kind of hoping for some 'AT specific' boosts from some incarnate slots:
Boost aggro caps for Tankers.
Improved pet controls and added powers to Controller/Dom pets.
+Crit rate for Scrappers.
+Crit dmg for Stalkers.
Improved target cap and/or softened crashes for ATs with nukes.
You get the idea...
/Signed for removing the crash
When I get my Fire/Fire/Fire blaster to 50 (a ways off yet) why would I bother keeping Inferno when I can use Pyronic V.Rare combined with Musculature V.Rare? Sure, it might not throw out nearly 2k worth of damage, but;
1) No End Crash
2) No PbAoE, so less likely to die
3) Way faster timer
4) Still excellent damage
Really, Nukes and Snipes both are in need of some love right about now.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Because Pyronic is recharging.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
/Signed for removing the crash
When I get my Fire/Fire/Fire blaster to 50 (a ways off yet) why would I bother keeping Inferno when I can use Pyronic V.Rare combined with Musculature V.Rare? |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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It's not just a silly limitation nowadays. It's always been a silly limitation, and it used to be even sillier when your own nukes would super-stun you for 5-10 seconds. Happy happy joy joy happy happy joy!|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Regardless of the existance of Judgement slots or not Nukes need to be redone to remove the crash. It's just a silly limitation of those powers nowadays.
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I've rarely argued for the removal of the crash from nukes, mostly because I didn't think anyone would agree with me, what with the strong status quo we have here, but I still firmly believe that these powers are unduly hamstrung by irritating limitations.
Here's what bugs me about nukes so much - they're good powers in some circumstances, but frikkin' let me use 'em! There's nothing quite as frustrating as having a good power on your roster and being unable to use it, even when it's right there, recharged and taunting you.
I'm all for removing the 100 end crash from nukes, yes. Can we kill the interruptibility on snipes while we're at it?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've felt this way for a long time.. I understand the need for some sorta 'crash', but what they have now is a bit too much. Maybe if they made it like Rads EM Pulse, it might be better. (-Recovery debuff per target hit). So if you missed a lot, either by the RNG hating you, or someone decided to scatter the mobs the instant before you blew up, your recovery isn't totally screwed.
As of now I almost always skip the nukes on Defenders (unless their primary has some way to make up for the crash, like Kin or Cold), as the damage is far too low to warrant the crash. I'm aware many of them do have some nice secondary effects attached as well, but whether they make up for all your toggles/debuffs dropping is another question.
I *personally* wouldn't mind if they just turned everything into the so called "mini Nukes", like some of the VEATs got. Take the damage down a notch, reduce the recharge some, and scrap the crash entirely.. Granted I'm sure there would be many people against that change.
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So why would I simply not use BU-Aim-Rain of Fire-Fireball-Breath of Fire instead? Which is much less likely to get me killed AND won't drain my end to 0. sure, it won't be a spectacular one shot kill, but it's got to the point (for quite some time) where the pros of Nukes are by far overshadowed by the cons. I already know of people who don't take them (bar the crashless ones and RoA/Full Auto etc) |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Because Pyronic is recharging.
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Fortunata's nuke has no crash...and thats clearly not broken.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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/Signed|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Okay, I was against this in the past, but I have since changed my mind.
My suggestion is to remove the full crash from the tier 9 nukes in blast sets. |
I have *always* felt that the nukes with crashes add NOTHING to a blaster - and as blasters are my favorite AT, I have a LOT of them over the last 7 years.
I always skip the nuke (except for Archery's Rain of Arrows, which has no crash.) Almost ANY other power is more useful to me than an AoE damage power that brings my gaming to a screeching halt and puts me in the corner for a mandated time out.
(In fact, I tend to skip *most* powers that have mandatory end crashes, perhaps similar philosophies should also be applied to some of the end crashes of some of the Defensive sets like Elude.)
I am not against a penalty - but one that halts your gaming and gives you a timeout is silly.
If simply removing the crash isn't acceptable, a smarter alternative, for powers that are deemed absolutely need a crash (Elude?) would be to have it hurt the character in a way that permits them to keep fighting. Perhaps losing 1/4 of their health - which could kill you if you are already below that. Counter strategy could be to either pop a green first of ask for a heal from a teammate. Or something.
But don't have the penalty for using a power that you have to stop playing the game for a bit and sit in timeout. It's *so* annoying that most folks I know avoid using (or taking) the power altogether.
For Great Justice!
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Thuderous Blast, Blizzard, Rain of Arrows and Full Auto asked me to mention that not all nukes are PBAOE. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
/Signed for removing the crash
When I get my Fire/Fire/Fire blaster to 50 (a ways off yet) why would I bother keeping Inferno when I can use Pyronic V.Rare combined with Musculature V.Rare? Sure, it might not throw out nearly 2k worth of damage, but; 1) No End Crash 2) No PbAoE, so less likely to die |
Yes, I take them, and will continue to take and use them, even if they don't change, but some degree of change should definitely be on the table. (I'm not *as* big on taking them on a defender, short of Rad - where it really has to be either "After stuff has been damaged a bit" or "After purples" as part of a 2-3 attack chain. Otherwise, they just *can't* do enough damage on their own. Though I still do. *shrug*)
I "Get" the crash (and the lack of one in FA and ROA) - it's a build up and "ultimate" release of power - versus Judgement being borrowed from the Well, so it's not "your" power you're using. I'd expect to be "drained" and hit with something just after it. I do think it needs to be rebalanced, though - more damage (especially in Defender hands, as you're paying *even more* by losing the ability to buff/debuff while down without being able to wipe out an even level spawn,) and if they have to keep the crash, slightly shorter duration with a faster recharge. Or something.
(While we're at it, rebuild Sparky in Electric so its attacks chain.)
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RoA and Full Auto didn't have a crash last time I checked |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Thuderous Blast, Blizzard, Rain of Arrows and Full Auto asked me to mention that not all nukes are PBAOE.
Yes, I take them, and will continue to take and use them, even if they don't change, but some degree of change should definitely be on the table. (I'm not *as* big on taking them on a defender, short of Rad - where it really has to be either "After stuff has been damaged a bit" or "After purples" as part of a 2-3 attack chain. Otherwise, they just *can't* do enough damage on their own. Though I still do. *shrug*) |
But yeah, I forgot about TB and Blizzard, true. However, the other points still hold true for them.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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That's just general frustration with nukes, it has nothing to do with the argument saying Judgement is a replacement for nukes.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So why would I simply not use BU-Aim-Rain of Fire-Fireball-Breath of Fire instead? Which is much less likely to get me killed AND won't drain my end to 0. sure, it won't be a spectacular one shot kill, but it's got to the point (for quite some time) where the pros of Nukes are by far overshadowed by the cons. I already know of people who don't take them (bar the crashless ones and RoA/Full Auto etc)
Fortunata's nuke has no crash...and thats clearly not broken. |
I personally love using my nuke, and If Inferno isn't enough to destroy the mob, use a Fire Ball beforehand.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I love nukes as well. I just think that, given the recharge and suchnot, there is no real reason anymore to keep the end crash. It's an outdated mechanic, much like the current lacklustre state of snipes.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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There are multiple methods of overcoming the end crash, blue insps being the most accessible one. In fact, I20 added another great way to overcome the end crash, with the Ageless Destiny power which gives you an awesome recharge bonus as well as filling your endurance bar.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I love nukes as well. I just think that, given the recharge and suchnot, there is no real reason anymore to keep the end crash. It's an outdated mechanic, much like the current lacklustre state of snipes.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Agreed ... I rarely use my nuke on my Ice/Ice unless I happen to have a tray full of blues. The end crash makes it virtually unuseable otherwise.
I will definitely be picking the cold incarnate nuke and using it instead.
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i say leave the crash. but make it so it only kills half of your end or at least 75% of it. as nukes can be buffed etc they do need a downside tbh and killing 50-75% sounds fine, you can still continue on.
Okay, I was against this in the past, but I have since changed my mind.
My suggestion is to remove the full crash from the tier 9 nukes in blast sets.
Why?
Now that Judgement exists, nukes are quickly becoming all downside with very little upside.
Judgement:
1)Recharges faster than any crashing nuke.
2)Deals more damage than most of them.
3)Not positive on this, but I don't believe it kills your end bar either.
Why would anyone take a power that kills your end bar every time you use it, and takes 5 minutes to recharge, when there is an alternative that doesn't crash your end and recharges in a minute and a half?
If blast set tier 9s retain the end crash, you are going to start seeing a LOT of blasters, corruptors, and defenders that either never took them, or respecced out of them at 50.
I'd like to keep the tier 9s relevant, and not another power that falls by the wayside since we now have something better in every measurable way.
I was against this before because the tier 9 nukes had to have a balancing point to being so powerful, but since anyone of any AT that is level 50 can get a power that is BETTER than the nukes, I see no reason why they have to stay the same anymore.
Edit: I'd even be okay with it if the crash being removed was something that happens at level 50.
But I'd prefer if it just happened across the board, because that way non-Incarnate characters would get a benefit from it as well.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.