Hmmm, nukes are looking less attractive.

And when every AT could fly, teleport, have a heal, stealth, buff defences and h-
Oh, wait.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Since you asked...

Re: Fireball. A great power that hits a lot of enemies, does a decent amount of damage, and fires off very quickly. The drawback here is that it gets you a lot of enemy attention. If you just use it every time the enemy is clustered, you're going to die a lot. At base difficulty, this isn't so much of an issue, but when I am fighting harder spawns filled with reds and purples, I need to be smarter and exercise good judgement in how I use this power or I am going to die a lot. You can better serve the team by saving Fireball for when you're sure you won't get enough aggro to kill you.

This is especially true in challenging content like the new Incarnate trials, Tin Mage, Apex, and the like. If you're fighting whites and yellows, I'll concede that it probably doesn't matter as much and you can just throw Fireball and Fire Breath as much as you want without having to worry about the consequences. Ditto if you're solo - you're going to be getting all that aggro, anyway, so worrying about it is unnecessary.

Blaze is a better example of the point you're trying to make. There are almost no situations that can't be improved by adding Blaze. It's a solid part of my single target attack chain and I use it almost every time that it's up, but I recognize that not every one of the powers I pick needs to be a bread-and-butter staple of the build like this.

If you care and because it is relevant to the discussion, I tend to use Inferno in three different situations:

1) If I believe I am about to die. I'm a Blaster, and this happens a lot. Inferno is my strongest attack. I'm about to run out of my HP, nevermind my endurance. If I have one move left to make, what better all-or-nothing final gambit is there than a Nuke?

2) The team has aggro'd more than one spawn, and I don't believe we can handle it. In this case, I almost always do the same thing: I'll hit defensive inspirations if I've got any, hit Build Up, Fireball/Fire Breath one spawn, and use Inferno on the other. This will almost certainly get me killed, despite the Lucks/Ruggeds I just popped (unless I had a whole lot of them), but it will kill enough of the enemies we're up against that the team might be able to handle it now.

3) If I believe it would be cool. In which case, yes, using the power this way is a gimmick.

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. I like my Nuke. I like it a lot. It's a useful power, for more than just a gimmick. I guess I wouldn't actively complain if they suddenly stripped the crash, but I feel that it's not a necessary change. They are still good powers and I do still use them for more than the occasional giggle. If they must buff classic Nukes, I'd honestly keep the crash and add more targets, more damage, or a wider area of effect. I realize that I am in the minority, here.

City of Heroes might not be as tactically complex as, say, Starcraft, but it's not whack-a-mole, either. That you need to think before you use a power doesn't necessarily make it a bad power, and sometimes, the benefits are worth the crash.

Hmm... OK, you have a point there, I concede. I'll need some time to decide if I CAN argue against this, if I'll just need to hand you this one.

Viewing Incarnate powers as pools is not a bad idea. I suppose I saw them more as epics, myself. But they seem a bit... Specific for pool surrogates, though. Pools are mostly "just" powers that don't come with elements.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I concede that you have a point in regard to team encounters, though for the most part my experience is a bit different. I tend to play my Blasters at full tilt on teams, largely because I get so fed up of having to withhold half my powers when solo, and I've very rarely had that problem. Granted, on very high difficulty settings, that might become problematic, but the worst aggro I've seen Fireball or Fire Breath (or Fire Sword Circle or Combustion) draw has been a straggler or two. And that's not just on eight-man teams. Even on smaller teams, I rarely get more enemies than I can comfortably handle.

I have to disagree on using nukes as a last resort, however, and not because I haven't done it - I have - but mostly because it doesn't work. What I mean is, by the time I'm low on health, the spawn that's about to kill me has usually scattered quite a bit, or is otherwise out of range. My chances of catching them all with a nuke are minimal, so nuke or no nuke, I go down, at which point I consider nuking to have been a failure.

My beef with nukes and snipes and a few others is that all the drawbacks take at least my fun out of them when I have to think "I want to use this power... But I really shouldn't." It may be the smart thing to do, but if smart means not using my powers...

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

It comes down to the whole arguement of origins and concepts again, really.
For example, lets say that Blasters got a 'Rain of Swords' targetted AoE power, right?
Now, Angry Mac McMac the Sword Scrapper wants to use that power. But, because he's a Scrapper, he instead gets told he has to use 'Big Chop', an ST attack with some secondary effects to it.

Mac doesn't want that. He's got ST damage out the wazoo, and wants something cool and characterful that also happens to have swords in. But, by some arbitrary quirk, he can't have that.

This way, at least, there is no one who gets the concept-shaft, or anything like that. Sure, they may be a tad generic at times, but hopefully we will get more options, and at least this way no one gets something on their Tank that, really, they'd rather have to make their squishy a bit more hitty.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

This was in reference to the Judgement powers, and what it didn't address is that when you get to the higher tiers on Judgement the target cap increases to 40 for most (if not all) of them.

That's compared to the 16 target cap a nuke has that can never be increased by any means at all.

Also, the buffed damage of nuke powers, at least what is buffable by enhancements, is about on par with Judgement's base damage for most nukes.

Blizzard and Inferno are exceptions, but the rest all do around the same damage.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

What I don't understand is why AT modifiers aren't applied to these powers. Blasters excell at damage, it's what they do. Their top powers SHOULD outdamage the other AT's. Sure, Scrappers and Stalkers should be a close second, but Tanks shouldn't be able to generate as much. If AT modifiers were applied to the powers, you still get the cool wow factor, you still have a power that is awesome, just a blaster overkills by even more than usual. Same for the other slot with Buffs (I don't remember which), a 'fenders power SHOULD be more effective than the blasters.

I'm in two minds about having different powers per AT, and I think I'm leaning towards Alpha's side, but I do believe the strenghts of the AT's should be applied.

Less so to concept and more so to how generic pool powers are. Take THE most basic super power of all: Flight. Fly is a power that makes you fly. End of sentence. Even its combat text is "You are flying!" with an exclamation point. It doesn't imply AT mechanics, it doesn't imply a specific element, it doesn't imply anything, really, other than the ability to fly, which can come from probably the genre's widest set of backstories.

Judgement powers, especially, can be a bit more difficult to explain. But like I said, I'm not sure I want to argue that angle because you DO have a point. If everyone can share the same pool powers, I need a better reason why everyone shouldn't share the same Incarnates.

Speaking purely for myself, ANYTHING to do with a sword would be fine by me, so long as it did damage primarily. I've never been the kind of snob who looks down on single-target attacks because "the game is all about AoE," and I've actually campaigned for signature powers of that nature, back when that's what we were calling them. I envisioned a really long melee "combo" type power that lasted for a good 5-6 seconds, which nevertheless did ABSURD levels of damage to a single target.

I mean, AoEs are cool, but I learned my lesson early - you very much CAN have too much AoE and not enough single-target. My AR/Dev Blaster showed me that beyond a shadow of a doubt. AoE is good for mowing down legions of minions and cackling like a little kid, but once you face that particularly tough EB, all that AoE is worth about as much a sack of dead rats. It does crap damage for an obscene cost, it recharges too slow and it's mostly wasted. Now, I know Incarnate AoEs deal serious damage even to single targets, but just imagine if the damage it does to just, say, three or four targets were consolidated into one single-target attack?

Marauder, here I come! Please use your 90% resistance power so that I may test you!

All's I'm sayin' is there's room in the game for everything.

---

To harken back to the original topic - having nuke surrogates available to all ATs gives me one less reason to reconsider deleting all my Blasters. I HATE the balancing on their existing nukes, and now I can get a similar effect on my Scrappers. Why would I bother with a squishy Blaster, then?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Ion Judgement can also potentially hit 24 more targets than Thunderous Blast ever will.

It can also drain the mobs endurance.

Okay, so if we use round numbers to do the math here, TB will deal 1000 damage to 16 targets, for a total of 16,000 potential damage.

Ion Judgement boosted by Musculature will deal 620 (it's base damage is 480) to a potential 40 targets, for a total of 24,800 potential damage.

And, even with 100% recharge in TB, Ion will still be available twice as often. So, Ion Judgement will potentially deal 49,600 damage in the same amount of time it takes Thunderous Blast to deal 16,000. And that's using just the 33% Common Musculature boost, you can get up to a 45% boost for the Very Rare.

There's really no comparison there, Ion Judgement wins by a mile. Then you add in the facts that Ion Judgement doesn't drain your end bar, AND is available to all ATs equally instead of just 3 ATs in specific powersets (which are on the lower end of those ATs' performance as well) and Thunderous Blast pales even more in comparison.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

These aren't exactly right.

It uses all END if it hits a significant number of targets. If you nuke a single target? Nope. You'll end up with END still. It pretty much won't use *any.* Your *recovery* is still dropped, but you still have END. (Exceptions being Blizzard, which is placed and will drop END to 0, and Electric, which needs a target but will still not drop you to 0 if you don't hit enough.)

It also does not preclude using other powers - you can still take a blue, use END recovery powers, or have other buffs or ally powers return your END and continue fighting. (Elec/Elec, for instance - Nuke, blue, powersink, rock.)

Side note, part of the perception here is going to depend on where you spend your time. I don't run a blaster/defender to 35, then ITF my way to 50 in a weekend. I don't spend a lot of time on my 50s at all - they're part of a rotation. Sometimes I feel like playing them, sometimes I don't. So I have much *more* time, even on a Defender getting this at 38, to play with the Nukes. Someone who rushes to 50 and concentrates just on that character is going to see it much differently.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I would actually say no to that.
Why?
Because Blasters and Scrappers already do more damage than the others ATs even without Judgement attacks.
Judgement for squishies is something to finally Hurrah about, a personal attack that actually lets you stop sucking at damage for a moment and make a mob fall over. On Alpha, its really nice to just let the bots kick back for a mob, while the Boss does his thing with throwing lightning bolts.

My Fire Blaster, on the other hand, makes mobs vanish in three-four powers anyway. A uber-giant fireball will be really cool for her, but she'll still be awesome even during its downtime.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

It was purely an example

I'll boil it down further;

Player A has AT X. They get Power 1 for their Judgement
Player B has AT Y. They get Power 2 for thier Judgement

Player A would much rather have Power 2 on their character/AT, because it fits their concept better. But, because of being the wrong AT, they can't have that power, despite the fact they know it exists. They also see no good reason not to get that power, which is then frustrating.

/example

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Understood, and true, I'd say the lack of drain is all but a footnote if we're talking about these powers used as AoE attacks. As to the rest: yes, I know inspirations and endurance boosts are loverly. Heck, my defender can:

1. Eat a bunch of lucks, so crowd aggro is all but harmless.
2. hop into a large crowd, fulcrum shift
3. nuke
4. use a blue
5. use transference on the sole surviving boss

End result? Full end with one surviving foe, and a HUGE damage boost. But the scenario I just listed contains four tidbits that have nothing to do with nuke balance. Hint: they don't include step 3. Yes, there are many things that can assuage the downsides of powers, or maximize performance. But it ain't fair to keep these in mind for balance because you can't count on their presence in any given situation. Would it be fair for all snipes to stun the player's character? It wouldn't be so bad, because you can always use a break free.
Yes, it's facetious, but let's go back to my aforementioned defender. I have had times where the same defender was fending off a group of nearly dead foes, and used his nuke without any blue candy, or three of a kind I could combine. Guess what? He had to take a time out. This was the game working as intended.

Power positives are balanced against recharge, endurance price, power tier, and negative effects after use. Nukes already have the highest tier, longest recharge (by far) and a steep endurance cost. Heck, I would have rebalanced them right after their target cap was introduced. One more negative added, no positives added, so remove one negative to compensate.

But as to why I think the judgement is a handy tool to use in this conversation: it's a new power. Similar function. No legacy factors to balance it. The two are travelling different roads to the same place. The new has a 45 lb weight it has to carry on the way, while the old has a 60 lb. weight. Is the old so superior it needs a high handicap? I don't think so.

Heck, I'd be cool if all nukes took the 'new' tier nine approach from armor sets, with a set endurance price after use rather than a crash. I'm just not seeing the shutdown's necessity.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I never said that nukes were balanced outside their set- in fact I was implicit that they were balanced inside their powerset by the inclusion of tier considerations. I will admit I was less than clear on this matter, so I will clarify:
You can't take into account mitigation of nuke downsides that lie outside of a given powerset. Powersink, catch a breath, etc. have nothing to do with a nuke's balance, does that make sense? They exist, but cannot be assumed.

I never said nukes were 'cost free.' The 'wait until 32/38' is an opportunity cost for receiving a powerful ability. (See any set, and this is almost always the case.) Having to wait another six minutes (3 for recharge slotting) is and opportunity cost. Having to use 20 endurance (unslotted for endurance) is a cost. Having to use a power pick and enhancement slots is an opportunity cost. I think these are enough costs, and suggested myself an additional one should the devs feel it necessary, the set but lower cost of a certain amount of endurance, as rage/hasten/strength of will/one with shield exhibit.

As to the trans-archetypal-balance, I said explicitly that the incarnate pools have different balance considerations than the powerset consideration of a nuke. (See "different roads comment, and list of balance factors previous in thread.) I simply said that looking at the weights stacked against the strengths, considering the balance of a similar effect and outcome, is logical. (though limited) If you told me my defender had to run a bunch of trials and wait until 50 for their nuke, I'd tell you you were crazy. But again, go back to the pluses the incarnate AoE's bear and they DO balance out. Then go to my elec/pain corruptor, take away his blue candy. Should he nuke? In many cases, it's better if he doesn't. Why, he can't nuke again soon? Sure. But mostly because he greatly reduces his ability to react/participate.

I'm just saying this: judgement wipes a spawn, and takes away some endurance, and costs you the chance to do so again until the near future. Getting it costs time, trials, in-game resources. Nukes cost bring a high (arguably higher) opportunity cost AND cost you the ability to use any powers for ~10 of increased vulnerability, always against squishy archetypes. (Deliberately ignoring blue inspirations) Getting nuke powers takes time, in-game resources, and limited power/slot choices.

If you DO include inspirations, you are costing yourself inspiration slots times however many slots you reserve for 'nuke candy,' an added opportunity cost against potential personal healing/damage/defense/etc. If you rely on toggles, those also need to recharge and be reactivated.

Yes, I think they are bad powers and I much prefer OWTS & SoW which are mini-god modes with mini-crashes which makes them infinitely more useable.

I drop Psychic Wail on my Fort the instant it's recharged and I have targets in range.

My Fire/Rad corr on the other hand dropped Inferno a few weeks ago because I never used it - I could never afford to due to the crash.

And now that I have seen Judgement, I will never take it.


Only my Fire/Kin corr will keep inferno, as he can circumvent the crash by popping a blue and then transference.

The devs specifically said they balance the game around SOs and not IOs. Well, I'd theorize that, when it comes to incarnate/judgement, the devs simply *do not* balance them. They basically make you *unbalanced*. As great as the Judgement powers are, the rest of the game needs to stay balanced. So trying to balance nukes because Judgement is so much better is trying to rebalance them for an unbalanced reason.

That said, I still think the recharge on the nukes could be reduced by a quarter and still not be unbalanced. They should still recharge longer but you should still have the opportunity to use them more, even if they crash you. (But keep the crashless nukes around where they are)

I'd have to completely disagree on this point. Judgement powers show every sign of going through a developer balance process. Each tier requires more time invested. Very limited boostability, (only alphas work) set-in-stone recharge. Only available for the 45+ game. Requires a level 50 character. Requires a many in-game resources and a lot of participation. They didn't give players the "I win" button, they game them a nuke that can be upgraded by participating in trial content.

You don't have to give players an 'I win' button to be unbalanced. And many of the considerations you say were probably given with respect to future additions to the incarnate system. There are still slots to unlock and they don't want to give up all the power to you with just those you can get now.

Except that if you use Ion and hit 40 targets you have just succeded in probably killing off minions and having a ton of LTs and bosses looking in your direction. Not an issue with existing nukes.

First and foremost, I realise this is a purely theoretical discussion for much the same reasons as stated before - nukes need to be looked at, and they simply won't be.

That said, I don't want nukes to be "cost free," I just want a different type of cost. Even swapping the 100% endurance drain with a 100 point endurance cost would be a vast improvement, since that can be slotted down to around 50, more if you consider Incarnate slotting. I feel a nuke's cost should be less in its crash and more in its... Well, cost. Endurance cost, recharge speed, slotting requirements and so forth. Yes, it would be less pleasant to build, but it would be more pleasant to actually use.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

What nukes are YOU using?

I have LTs and bosses looking at me after an Inferno all the time......and I don't have any endurance to fight them off. And this is after Aim+Build Up, with a fully slotted Inferno.

LTs have slightly more HP than Inferno can deal, and bosses have substantially more. And an LT with a sliver of health is just as dangerous to me as a fully healed one because I have no endurance to kill it with.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

I mostly agree w/you, but just as a nitpick, I usually (always?) lead w/BoF & Fireball before Inferno to get rid of those slivers of Lt healths. Sometimes Blaze on the boss too. Unless you're trying to solo-clear a spawn, and even then you can pull it off depending on your defenses (esp before the crash) and your secondary.

But yeah, the advantages of Judgment are ridiculous. Here's another one: you can cast them around corners to avoid (almost) any return fire. Just hit 1 mob at the edge of a spawn, and it'll propagate to most of his friends (via jumping or a 40' radius) who won't be able to shoot back at you, and you'll have full end & mobility to run away if you choose. Yeah, you can sorta do that w/Blizzard (no end, no mobility) and RoA (4 sec animation) too, and not w/Void (favored by melee types who don't care about return fire) or Cryo (unless you use all of that 120' range). However, everyone has access to Ion & Pryo, and only Ice & Arch blasters can (sorta) pull off this trick w/their nukes.