I give in - Inventions knockback protection

Is that a playstyle choice?

Well, Steadfast protection only goes up to 30, Karma only goes up to 30. So that leaves you with just BotZ.

Now that Flight is speed-capped without anything in the slot, you can place the BOTZ -KNB in there without losing any speed. If you don't plan on flying while fighting (or if you have Hover for that) you don't care about end cost anyway, and it's effectively free in terms of build compromises (although not in terms of money).

I think you can get Steadfast -knb with Alignment merits too -- IIRC, it's an exception to the "rares only" rule.

Wait what? When did they change this? Last I had heard (granted I don't keep up to date with travel power changes) the only change to flight was raising it's speed cap, not that it automagically reaches it without slotting.

As to Sam's decision on slotting nothing but 50s, it's his choice. How does what he do affect you? He made it clear he will not exemplar, so slotting anything below 50 is moot (and more expensive). I don't do it personally, my brute is happily sitting on the lowest level Steadfast.

Some of my characters

When did this happen? Before Universal Travel Power IOs were excluded from sprint, because some people have multiple versions of sprint, while others players just have the one version.

To Samuel...I'd still suggest the early level just so you can slot it asap.

However, if you have no desire to exemp ever, then you COULD switch it out for a higher level one, but Steadfast and Karma -KB are pretty cheap, and last I looked (it's been awhile I admit) BOTZ -KB wasn't exactly cheap.

If you're tanking on a team, you'll want to hold aggro as much as you can. Ideally, of course.

I must be mistaken - never actually tried as i have the aforementioned stealth in every toon. mb.

Behold.

1 is typically enough to prevent 95% of the KB in the game, actually.

The Kinetic Crash set only has a -3 KB protect, which isn't enough on its own.

With the Steadfast slotted, the only things that manage to knock me down:

1) Fake Nemesis force bolt
2) Summoned Phantasm energy torrent (hate those things)
3) Occasional AV with super KB powers.

I can't remember if those Longbow EBs can do it or not (it's been awhile).

The best bet for a non-melee character, though, is probably the Karma -KB IO. It can be put in powers like Hover and Combat Jumping, which you can get early on, and they're also fairly cheap (relatively) to obtain, especially if you can wait to slot a level 30 version at level 27, and their isn't a tremendous amount of knockback until you get past level 30, so the journey shouldn't be too unbearable.

If you're one of those melee types without KB protection with damage resist powers, spend that extra slot on a low level power and slot a steadfast. BotZ probably isn't worth it, all things considered.

Well, people do things for all sorts of reasons and I'm not the one to tell people how to play, but if it means anything to you its worth pointing out that while there is such a thing as a level 50 SO, there's no such thing as a level 50 IO in the same sense. An SO has an intrinsic level, such that if you are more than three levels higher it stops working. IOs have a minimum level, but they work at all levels. Since nothing about the KB enhancements scale up or down with level a level 10 KB IO is indistinguishable from a level 10 KB IO when you are level 50, so it is in effect identical to it. It only acts differently at lower levels, which you say you'll never be again.

On the subject of what has what level of knock, just to review:

All knockdown is 0.75 or lower; that's what makes it knockdown in the first place. A -4 therefore blocks all knockdown.

Most critter knockback for minions to bosses are between mag 0.3 and mag 3. One KB IO will stop those as well.

Some critter KB exceeds mag 4, but its unusual. Archvillains can exceed mag 4 with a variety of powers. Any boss or higher critter with power push can also exceed mag 4.

Some KB is intrinsicly lower than mag 4 but players can experience higher mag due to the purple patch. Statesman in the LRSF has a lot of mag 4 KB, but its only mag four if you happen to be the same level as Statesman. Its otherwise somewhat higher. KB in +2 missions only has to be mag 3.3 to convert to at least knockdown. Against +4 critters its only 2.8.

Force bolt is the usual culprit for high mag outside of AVs. Its intrinsicly mag 9 on bosses, enough to overcome to -4 KB protection IOs. It can also overcome three such IOs if you face the boss at +4.

A few critters just have mega KB. Statesman has an intrinsic mag 6 knockup in KO Blow and mag 6 knockback in Hurl, but two IOs can block him. BackAlleyBrawler and Reichsman both have some wicked knock, from mag 6 all the way up to mag 22 (both have at least one mag 22 knockback power). But this is usually very special circumstance.

And by the way, as far as I remember all KB IOs are also KU IOs with the same mag.

Two KB powers that land at the same time will combine magnitudes, a fact which is more important for tankers (and anything else that tries to tank like one) than most other things. The definition of "at the same time" is a little vague, but I think its probably something like within the same combat clock or thereabouts, which means the KB has to land within one eighth and one quarter of a second apart. Two Nemesis Fakes landing simultaneous force bolts will almost certainly knock almost anything off its feet that does not have KB resistance - which all melee powerset powers with KB protection have as well.

And since this has come up before, 100% KB resistance means no KB. It reduces all incoming KB mag to zero, and zero means no KB - unless the knockback is unresistable.

On the subject of unresistable knockback: UXB detonations have unresistable knockback, and its mag 300. That's why they will toss even melee away from them: its almost impossible to have enough KB protection to stop that.

Some days I feel like you're allergic to me in general

Thank you for the insult, and for not reading my previous posts. It's appreciated.

It is a benefit because it gives me an excuse to not exemplar. I do not want to exemplar, I will not exemplar, and the more excuse I have in addition to "I just don't want to" the better off I am. I see no benefit to it, I see no reason to do so, and I never intend to do it.

In fact, I have to wonder - why does everyone always assume that everyone wants to build to exemplar as low as possible? Yes, I know some people want to have access to all the game's content, but I have a zillion alts to access said content. I don't need to backslide my level 50s and lose the bulk of their powers when I can be playing alts, instead.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

For me, it's not about accessing all the content. It's about accessing my friends and the content they are currently playing with my favorite characters. I like being my warshade, no matter what level he is. He's fun to RP and he's a blast to play. My mastermind and tank are no different. More importantly to me, though, is being able to play with my friends. And if they're level 20 characters are running a Positron today, then I want to be with them. I don't want to be useless to them because I built with the idea that I'll only be good at 50.

Is flight speed capped even without a flight speed enhancement in Fly's default slot? That could make things simpler. And, yes, I do have Hover to use in combat. A number of people have remarked on how unusual it is to see a perma-hover Scrapper, but that just makes me feel all the more proud

I'll have to check that when the servers come back up.

That's what I planned to do. I checked my Reward Merits and discovered I had 91, which allowed me to snag a level 10 Steadfast Protection enhancement for 75 right on the spot, and I currently have that slotted in Temperature protection. I'm working on acquiring two Alignment Merits now and hope to be done with this by the time my vacation is over. I will proceed to hoard those alignment merits until said character turns 47, at which point I'll swap that Steadfast Protection out for a level 50 BotZ. To people's resounding disapprovement if necessary

Gotcha. This puts things a little more into perspective. So the worry with knockback mag higher than 4 is less so with how debilitating it can be on direct survivability and more so with how much it can contribute to a Tanker losing control of his "herd." I've avoided playing Tankers in general, and even when I do tank with Brutes and Scrappers, it's not with Fiery Aura, so this shouldn't be a concern. That's one point against going for multiple special Inventions and sticking with just Mag 4.

Thank you! This puts quite a few things in perspective.

I've seen knockback stacking happen before, but it's always been my impression that the window of opportunity to stack is VERY narrow. So much so as to be negligible for most common situations, and stacked knockback seems rare enough to not bother accounting for it. Moreover, the "pinball effect" happens less because of stacked knockback and more because of concurrent knockbakc that recurs faster than I can regain control of my character.

I wasn't aware of how knockback scales with level, but knowing that this is part of the concern is a relief, since I don't intend to tackle missions higher than +0 if I have a choice. I realise Incarnate content is inherently +4, but that's a whole other subject of discussion. Suffice it to say that this does not concern me, and I would not bother building for it.

Finally, the exceptions of higher knockback seem to be fairly rare and/or special, which to my eyes constitutes and acceptable vulnerability. My chief concern is avoiding the pinball effect from regular repeated spawns. Being knocked around by an EB or the occasional boss is acceptable, so long as I can resist being tumbled around by Hurricane or Earthquake.

Finally, all Dark Armour and Fiery Arua characters I have are fliers, either with just Hover on top of other travel powers, or via Hover and Fly. I know BABs made aerial knockback equal ground knockback in terms of length, but this seems to have been shortened thereafter, since aerial knockback at least FEELS to take slightly shorter than ground-based one, or at least doesn't feel like it has such a huge pause after the tumble. This means that what knockback does get through shouldn't be so debilitating, provided it's not repeated many times, which it shouldn't be with this rarity and exclusivity.

---

More than anything else, the cost of investment for all of these feels fairly low and easily acceptable. 75 Reward Merits or 2 Alignment Merits may be a high cost if I planned to spend them many times, but once for a grand total of four characters... If that? Yeah, doesn't seem like a big deal. I should have done this much earlier, but it's only now that I abandoned Blasters that this has really become a feasible example.

I'll consider doing this for Masterminds, but I don't think it's quite as relevant for them.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I thought Knockup was just Knockback aimed in a different direction?

Heh, would that I could But I like the game when it's easy in more than just combat difficulty. I like the game when it's not a lot of work, and Inventions are a lot of work. Combat becomes easy, but investment becomes hard, and it's just trading one bad for another, and a much worse one in my eyes.

I'm not an optimization-minded player, is all. It's not that I can't do it, so much as I feel it ruins the game for me. Defence belongs to defence sets like Shield Defence or Super Reflexes. Then it's proper gameplay. Capping melee or ranged defence on a Fiery Aura character is so meta-game I might as well start calling her a "toon." Easy isn't always fun. Attainable, repeatable easy is

I can respect that. You wouldn't believe how many times I've gotten in trouble with my friends over refusing to swap characters and partake in planned events, or how often I've refused to SK or EX down 30 levels to play with them. If I complain about forced teaming content, this is part of the reason - I like doing my own thing, with people only if they feel like coming along, which they rarely do. It's not a very fair approach, I'll admit that right out the gate, but it is what makes the game work for me.

Truth be told, I'm here for the game. I enjoy playing with my friends whenever possible, but not at the expense of the gaming experience. That's experience, not XP. The simple reason is that the more I deviate from what I was planning to do, the less enthusiastic I am to log back in the next day.

You may not realise how powerful a tool it is to have a valid excuse for not participating in a planned event. Some people are very understanding, but some... Just aren't. "So switch over! So exemplar! What, can't you make an exception for me just once!" It's much easier to say that I CAN'T because my build would unravel than to out-and-out say that "No, I don't want to make an exception, because it makes me not want to look at the game when you force me to do something I don't want to do via emotional blackmail."

I can handle myself either way, but one way is definitely more pleasant than the other.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Perhaps so, but I'd be irritated by myself if I were so anal about the things I'm anal about when those things aren't a big reason to get butt-hurt over...sphincter.

Well don't. I've got a hover Brute that I enjoy chaining cones from 20+ ft away. Even when he's not doing that, he's slicing up stuff in the air. So not that unusual.

Abandoned Blasters?

Well forget you too >_>

Installing Mids, learning how to use it, planning a crazy build, investing in all the IOs and taking the time to slot them: Yeah, that I'll give you as "difficult." It's also bloody annoying unless, like me, you enjoy that kind of thing.

But you certainly don't have to go that far. Stop by the invention tables in RWZ, a university, your base, or the abandoned labs at the end of the day. Go through your inventory of invention recipes that dropped today, and make a few of them. Chances are there will be a few set IOs that can be crafted. There's no marketing required here, just one extra stop on your way to the vendor. Now see if any of those enhancements fit somewhere on your character. Even if you get a grand total of zero set bonuses, level 50 IOs are flat out better than SOs. Think back to your old thread on dual-aspect enhancements, and how huge the benefits were. It's even better for three and four aspect IOs. Any set bonuses you obtain this way will be by accident, but are benefits on top of having better enhancement values.

If you really can't make that one stop on the way to a vendor at the end of your day, then I suppose I have to respect that. I don't understand it, but I'll respect it and leave you be. I'm just making this effort to stress to you how easy the system can be.

My Dark Armor tank is capped to S/L/E/N defense. My Warshade happens to have five purple sets and 187.5% global recharge. My Mastermind has S/L and ranged defense capped and something on the order of eleventy billion hitpoints.

None of them are "toons."

I thought it had to do with "strength" of the knock?

I really don't want to get into that, but I'll split the problem into two categories:

1. I don't know what I want, or more specifically, what I'm supposed to want. Optimization tends to focus on plugging up holes in characters, whereas I'm just fine with characters having obvious weaknesses and obvious strengths as distinct from each other. Provided the weakness isn't too jarring (like run speed floor slow or lack of knockback protection), I don't have a problem with it.

2. It always ends up as a halfassed job, as making a complete set is part impossible, part undesired. One of the things which makes me want to bother with Knockback Protection enhancements is that they're just one thing that I can get done once and stick it at 50. It's not an ongoing process that will never be done.

Again, my reasons are not convincing, and people are already lining up to toss low-brow insults at my face over them, just as happens ever time I mention this. It is what it is. But at the end of the day, what matters is how much I want to do something and how much I want to play the game with it. Other people's preferences are all fine and well for them, but I don't necessarily want to copy them, and I won't necessarily enjoy them as much as they do.

Common Inventions are about as "involved" as I'll go. If dual aspect Commons existed, I'd probably get involved with those, as well. But set bonuses don't interest me. They're too close to your typical Fantasy RPG set of +5% fire resistance, +20 health, +10 magic, +2% critical chance, +11 Fortitude, +etc. I don't like complex game systems made up of multiple small gains. I much prefer simpler game systems where progress comes in fewer, larger steps that I don't have to crunch numbers to notice. That, and "loot" in general no longer interests me, thanks in whole to City of Heroes' launch design.

Whether my reasons are good or bad is irrelevant, because at the end of the day, it's still my time in my game.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm pretty sure knockbakc and knockup are the same effect as far as stats are concerned. Knockback and knockup effects are both resisted by knockback resistance and negated by knockback protection. Sub 0.75 mag knockback turns into knockdown, where your character lifts up in the air and lands on his back. Sub 0.75 knockup turns into a similar thing - your character gets lifted off his feed, he does a full one or two spins in the air and lands on his back.

Check out Air Superiority vs. Heavy Mallet for comparison.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.