50+1 and the Knockback issue
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-03-24 22:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
That's always been the downside to fighting -1 enemies. I don't really see them changing it.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
This I find quite annoying.. now that I have a few characters @ 50+1, I am having powers that originally caused Knockdown creating knockback which is definitely annoying on my Tanks and Brutes...
Has there been any mention of this issue by the Devs and are there any plans to change it ?? This is also an issue for My Elec Controllers and Dom who now have to deal with knocking back foes they did not before. PS change SolarFlare to knockdown..... |
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I've always thought that Knockdown powers should be low magnitude KnockUP instead of KnockBACK.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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Quote:
In the CoH engine there is only One Single Knock Effect|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I've always thought that Knockdown powers should be low magnitude KnockUP instead of KnockBACK.
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There is no existing mechanic that separates the knock-effects outside of the effect magnitude scaling.
This is why when you slot knockdown powers with knock-increase, stuff goes flying.
Now, should the game be updated to support 3 different states of Knock effect? Oh Hells Yes it should. That would fix a lot of the problems players have with powers causing knockback that are supposed to only cause KnockUp or KnockDown.
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There are two forms: Knockup and Knockback.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
In the CoH engine there is only One Single Knock Effect
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Knockdown is currently a low magnitude Knockback effect when it would make more sense for it to be a low magnitude Knockup effect.
Quote:
| This is why when you slot knockdown powers with knock-increase, stuff goes flying. |
Quote:
| Now, should the game be updated to support 3 different states of Knock effect? |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Could you be more specific? My Mace tanker has no problems with Crowd Control or Shatter. Are you fighting level 49s?|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
This I find quite annoying.. now that I have a few characters @ 50+1, I am having powers that originally caused Knockdown creating knockback which is definitely annoying on my Tanks and Brutes...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
This is also an issue for My Elec Controllers and Dom who now have to deal with knocking back foes they did not before.
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AAh, thats why.
My scrappers Claws focus is a KD power and recently it has changed to KB, this explains a lot. thanks.
As Tenzhi says Knock-up is a separate type of knock effect to knockback.
So everything they posted is entirely correct here, you could replace knockback/down with knock-up. Then as you outlevelled enemies they'd merely fly up further into the air rather than go from falling down to being knocked backwards.
Mind you I wouldn't do it with Jolting Chains cos it'd look daft. Not sure what the solution would be really. Marking the Chains Knockdown as "unaffected by buffs and enhancements" wouldn't work. I suppose they could reduce the amount of knockdown from (I guess) 0.67 to 0.34, then the scaling wouldn't take it above the down-to-back threshold (which I *think* is actually 0.75, not 1) as easily.
The knockback on powers like Focus is annoying, and can really upset your attack chain so I could live with knockback being changed to knockdown.
But only for melee ATs, because knockdown, or up, is grossly inferior mitigation to knockback, since the foe just has to stand up and immediatly starts attacking again. Sure, you may be okay if you're a blaster or a dominator with powerful melee attacks of your own, but for say an Energy corruptor or defender the extra time it takes for the enemy to run back into melee range is very valuable.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
The knockback on powers like Focus is annoying, and can really upset your attack chain so I could live with knockback being changed to knockdown.
But only for melee ATs, because knockdown, or up, is grossly inferior mitigation to knockback, since the foe just has to stand up and immediatly starts attacking again. Sure, you may be okay if you're a blaster or a dominator with powerful melee attacks of your own, but for say an Energy corruptor or defender the extra time it takes for the enemy to run back into melee range is very valuable. |
Erm, focus IS knockdown. Unless you fire it at something weak to knock effects (like Clockies), enhance it (either via enhancements or by set bonuses) or you're a few levels above them, then it becomes knockback.
As I said they only thing I can think of doing is greatly reducing the knock magnitude in powers so it won't cross the threshold as easily.
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I know that, but I was talking about the +1 issue referred to by the OP. There's also Shockwave, which I'd frequently avoid using except on bosses because of it's knockback effect.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Erm, focus IS knockdown. Unless you fire it at something weak to knock effects (like Clockies), enhance it (either via enhancements or by set bonuses) or you're a few levels above them, then it becomes knockback.
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I love knockback, both for it's mitigation, and for it's sheer sense of superpower, but it is somewhat counterproductive for a melee AT and decidely awkward to fit into a smooth, fast attack chain.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
In the CoH engine there is only One Single Knock Effect
There is no existing mechanic that separates the knock-effects outside of the effect magnitude scaling. This is why when you slot knockdown powers with knock-increase, stuff goes flying. |
I don't understand what you mean. What seperates knockup from knockback is the relationship with the position of the caster. Knockback throws a creature backward along the angle between caster and victim. Knockup throws a creature straight up into the air without much (any?) regard for the caster's position. When you slot knockback into knockup powers, stuff does indeed go flying... mostly straight up. They are the same only in the sense that both move the enemy in some direction. The difference is what direction the enemy moves.
In terms of the animation that plays when a creature gets knocked up or back, I believe but haven't exclusively tested that KBs or KUs less than the KB threshold do not really do a "full" short range knockback. What they do instead is play a stock animation that is more or less like a type of custom hold. I don't have access to my logs, but I think it is usually called SWEEP_LOW or SWEEP_HIGH. SWEEP_LOW looks like the knockdown in Ice Slick, SWEEP_HIGH looks like the flip through the air in Air Superiority. I need to test this more with knock up though.
In any case, the game does have the mechanics to "lock" the magnitude of a KB effect and prevent it from changing when creatures of higher or lower level are encountered. This effect currently exists in Repel, Repulsion Field and Whirlwind to prevent you from standing on top of high level enemies with an autohit KD toggle. I also think it might be used by Ice Slick and Earthquake, as low level enemies do not bounce out of those like you'd expect.
Personally, I am loving the extra KB. 
My 'main' is currently a Mind/Elec Dom.
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Footstomp I have noticed is scattering foes. Its possible I might have been fighting 49's. I was on a mission that wasnt mine (running with a friend ) which might have been set lower. I will test it today again and see what happens
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Could you be more specific? My Mace tanker has no problems with Crowd Control or Shatter. Are you fighting level 49s?
I can take my level 18 Electric controller and use Jolting Chain on level 17 enemies and they do no get knocked back, just down. |
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Quote:
In the CoH engine there are Two Distinct Knock Effects.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
In the CoH engine there is only One Single Knock Effect
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Knockback Enhancers apply their boost to two attributes, Knockback and Knockup. The link is to City of Data, and Mid's database also shows this. The Archetypes spreadsheet leaked by Iakona lists CoH entities as having a Knockback and Knockup Attribute.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Oh lord... does that mean when I slot my 3rd tier in my ice controller the Ice Slick is going to cause things to scatter like it does rikti monkeys now? Yuck. 
One could use the difficulty slider to alleviate this problem.
Forgot to mention, I find zero KB, only KD, using something like the epic Energy Torrent (not the blaster kind) on my level shifted scrappers. Haven't shifted my Axe tank or anyone similar, but as long as I'm fighting 50s (whose minions will con blue to me), I experiece no KB. In fact, I made a point to ask ppl w/KD powers, after level shifting, to see if they experienced KB right after I19.5 and no one had any problems. If FS is causing KB to *lvl 50* mobs, I'd /bug it (haven't level-shifted my own WP/SS yet so can't test myself).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
My experience w/ Stone Melee is that lvl50 mobs now behave as lvl 49 mobs used to in re KB
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Originally Posted by dave_p
Forgot to mention, I find zero KB, only KD, using something like the epic Energy Torrent (not the blaster kind) on my level shifted scrappers. Haven't shifted my Axe tank or anyone similar, but as long as I'm fighting 50s (whose minions will con blue to me), I experiece no KB. In fact, I made a point to ask ppl w/KD powers, after level shifting, to see if they experienced KB right after I19.5 and no one had any problems. If FS is causing KB to *lvl 50* mobs, I'd /bug it (haven't level-shifted my own WP/SS yet so can't test myself).
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Hmm... I'm trying to think of all my level shifted toons and what powers they have w/KB/KD/KU. The only toons I can think of are my 2 scrappers, Kat/Regen & DB/WP. Both have ET as an epic and they still do KD. Same for powers like Vegn. Slice, which has a .67 mag KB. If my Foot Stomp or Axe powers start doing KB after level shifting, I'm going to be seriously PO'ed.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
I dont think this happened on my SS/ brute after he lvl shifted, his KD is still KD. Oh yeah, you can also just raise your dif by one and get more inf.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
I dont think this happened on my SS/ brute after he lvl shifted, his KD is still KD. Oh yeah, you can also just raise your dif by one and get more inf.
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As far as I remember with Focus (and anything with 0.67 knockback) they have to be -2 to you for KB to start kicking in. I remember my Claws/WP scrapper used to get really annoyed when I started a mission and then realised it was a few levels out of date and I'd be doing a lot of minion chasing in it.
Quote:
This.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
One could use the difficulty slider to alleviate this problem.
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This I find quite annoying.. now that I have a few characters @ 50+1, I am having powers that originally caused Knockdown creating knockback which is definitely annoying on my Tanks and Brutes...
Has there been any mention of this issue by the Devs and are there any plans to change it ??
This is also an issue for My Elec Controllers and Dom who now have to deal with knocking back foes they did not before.
PS change SolarFlare to knockdown.....
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-