50+1 and the Knockback issue
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-03-24 22:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Funny thing, I just started a KM Scrapper last week. Quick Strike does KD, but its mag is 0.7, not 0.67 (at least that's what I remember, I'm not currently at my game PC to verify). When he fights blues, QS does KB; that tiny change makes all the difference...|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
As far as I remember with Focus (and anything with 0.67 knockback) they have to be -2 to you for KB to start kicking in. I remember my Claws/WP scrapper used to get really annoyed when I started a mission and then realised it was a few levels out of date and I'd be doing a lot of minion chasing in it.
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As usual, you have no idea how the engine works. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
... as usual, you have no idea how the engine works.
Okay, in the CoH engine there is only One Single Knock Effect There is no existing mechanic that separates the knock-effects outside of the effect magnitude scaling. This is why when you slot knockdown powers with knock-increase, stuff goes flying. Now, should the game be updated to support 3 different states of Knock effect? Oh Hells Yes it should. That would fix a lot of the problems players have with powers causing knockback that are supposed to only cause KnockUp or KnockDown. |
There are currently existing mechanics that seperates the knock effects outside of the effect of magnitude scaling.
This is why when you slot knock up powers with knock increase, stuff goes flying higher but not farther away. Ok higher is farther away, but you know what I mean.
Now, should the game be updated to support 3 different states of knock effect? Hell not it should not. The 2 we have are working as intended. Smack something of lower level with the same force as you would a higher level, the lower level mob should go flying vs just falling down. Imagine hitting a prize fighter and a 5 year old with the same force. One would at best fall down and be dangerous to you like an even or higher level mob would be and the other would go flying and pose no real threat. Although the later would probably spawn a police ambush at some random time when you are least prepared for it.
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Same. Some mobs are prone for knockback like clockwork (may be the only ones). Otherwise unless you should not have any issues unless you are 2 levels higher.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
I have 2 lvl shifted Super Strength brutes and neither of them sees any knockback problems fighting 50's.
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This will be interesting once I20 has been out for a while and we have 50+3s running around. Im sure farming, they will set the difficulty up if they have KB powers but on TFs that are on the lowest setting, Footstomp could suddenly turn into handclap with damage.
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I thought the extra +2 shifts in I20 were only applied in Incarnate content? Doubt we'll be seeing grey-conning 50s any time soon.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
This will be interesting once I20 has been out for a while and we have 50+3s running around. Im sure farming, they will set the difficulty up if they have KB powers but on TFs that are on the lowest setting, Footstomp could suddenly turn into handclap with damage.
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An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel
Oh lord... does that mean when I slot my 3rd tier in my ice controller the Ice Slick is going to cause things to scatter like it does rikti monkeys now? Yuck.
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No, Ice Slick will not throw enemies based on level difference. It will only throw the ones with an inherent vulnerability to knockback.
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You are correct. The mag is 0.7 on Quick Strike. That is a little odd considering the other KD powers in the set are 0.67. Typo perhaps when making the power that someone missed the 6 when typing 0.67? Not that things like that ever happen in this game.
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
Funny thing, I just started a KM Scrapper last week. Quick Strike does KD, but its mag is 0.7, not 0.67 (at least that's what I remember, I'm not currently at my game PC to verify). When he fights blues, QS does KB; that tiny change makes all the difference...
-Gate |
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Is that how it works? I have not read up on it so if that is the case it would be a non issue.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
I thought the extra +2 shifts in I20 were only applied in Incarnate content? Doubt we'll be seeing grey-conning 50s any time soon.
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Dude, come on, we all know knock up is a lie. You can't knock anyone up in this game. The proof is that there are no children.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
...as usual, you have no idea how the engine works.
Okay, in the CoH engine there are Two Distinct Knock Effects. |
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Oh thank goodness! My controller normally joins other people's teams so setting the difficulty isn't always an option. Good to know I'll only see the scatter slick on the primal clockwork and rikti monkeys like I have in the past.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
No, Ice Slick will not throw enemies based on level difference. It will only throw the ones with an inherent vulnerability to knockback.
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That would defeat the purpose of getting the +1.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
One could use the difficulty slider to alleviate this problem.
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I beg to differ. The catgirls have been multiplying since Launch Day.|
Originally Posted by Johnstone
Dude, come on, we all know knock up is a lie. You can't knock anyone up in this game. The proof is that there are no children.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
That would defeat the purpose of getting the +1.
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A. The extra KB is not an issue, its a BENEFIT!
B. Theirs not going to even be that much extra KB due to how KB works (unfortunately).
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A. For some, maybe. Not for others.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
A. The extra KB is not an issue, its a BENEFIT!
B. Theirs not going to even be that much extra KB due to how KB works (unfortunately). |
B. Yes, KD turns into KB against -1, on most powers. This can be a serious annoyance for melee characters.
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This is NOT true. This very thread has demonstrated this is NOT true. It baffles me that someone would post that non-true statement in this thread where it has been spelled out mutliple times that it is NOT true.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
B. Yes, KD turns into KB against -1, on most powers. This can be a serious annoyance for melee characters.
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KD turns into KB against -2s on most powers against almost all enemies. Almost all -1s still only suffer KD when hit by almost all KD powers. Quick Strike should be fixed to 0.67 KB, IMO, although it is almost a non-issue generally.
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Sorry, was typing quickly and made a typo. I meant "many powers" not most. Yes, on most it will not turn into KB (though it is painfully close), but there are a number of them that it will change it to KB.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
This is NOT true. This very thread has demonstrated this is NOT true. It baffles me that someone would post that non-true statement in this thread where it has been spelled out mutliple times that it is NOT true.
KD turns into KB against -2s on most powers against almost all enemies. Almost all -1s still only suffer KD when hit by almost all KD powers. Quick Strike should be fixed to 0.67 KB, IMO, although it is almost a non-issue generally. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I can't speak for all powers of course, but on my Inv/Stone tanker Fault and Tremor are still KD instead of KB on level 50's. I haven't really made a thorough search of powers but it's been a non-issue on anything I've played so far... including my Shield tanker & scrapper's shield charge.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Sorry, was typing quickly and made a typo. I meant "many powers" not most. Yes, on most it will not turn into KB (though it is painfully close), but there are a number of them that it will change it to KB.
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I'd worried about that exact point but it doesn't affect anything I've played so far at 50+1.
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New interface slot effect: Grants KB protection for 0.1s
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Hardly. You get the benefit of the reward of a +1 foe that behaves exactly like a +0 foe used to, or a +2 foe that behaves exactly like a +1 foe used to, and so on. Frankly, I still have a hard time believing the devs let it work that way, because of how good it is for reward rates. I was positive they wouldn't do that.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
That would defeat the purpose of getting the +1.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
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Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm fairly certain I'm seeing more KB effects on my level shifted MA/Shield scrapper.
And I'm curious what extra rewards, beyond extra XP, +1 provides. Drop rates are effected by more Lts and Bosses, not by increasing the level.
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Let me know if your level-shifted Incarnate gains any XP. |
Originally Posted by Hercules
And I'm curious what extra rewards, beyond extra XP, +1 provides.
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Influence per enemy and SO drops will be one level higher as well. |
Originally Posted by Hercules
And I'm curious what extra rewards, beyond extra XP, +1 provides. Drop rates are effected by more Lts and Bosses, not by increasing the level.
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Remember that the level shift isn't the only thing that comes with a high tier alpha. If you really have problems with KB, turn the difficulty up one. You will have an easier time at +1 than you did pre alpha at +0.
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Here's the problem w/"just turn up the difficulty +1" arguments. On a mixed team of level shifted & non, say running end game TFs, it's not fair for the non-level shifted toons to have to run +1s just so some of your attacks don't do KB. If I'm doing a speed ITF, I have exactly zero motivation to run it at +1, certainly if I'm not already level-shifted. Most teams I've run in the last month are of this sort--doing end game content, esp if they're the WST, with a mixed bag of level shifted & not (or hell, not even 50s yet). They're not all speed-oriented teams, but almost all of them run at +0.
Does applying a +1 to mobs make the game noticably harder for twinked out 50s, esp w/incarnates mixed in? No, not really, but it does slow down the kill rates just a tad, and again, why is it fair to ask non-shifted toons to spend even an extra 10 min to complete a TF because some of your powers are now doing KB? More likely, they'll just ask you do not use those powers, which now is unfair to those toons whose prime powers may no longer work optimally.
Solo, this may be a non-issue, though there are some who I'm sure would rather blast through armies of blue conning mobs for max drops or whatever.
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There is no KB problem when you run at +0 for level shifted characters. This a myth, a fabrication, a mistake, a misunderstanding, a lie, an untruth, a bad assumption, an error, etc.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
On a mixed team of level shifted & non, say running end game TFs, it's not fair for the non-level shifted toons to have to run +1s just so some of your attacks don't do KB. If I'm doing a speed ITF, I have exactly zero motivation to run it at +1, certainly if I'm not already level-shifted. Most teams I've run in the last month are of this sort--doing end game content, esp if they're the WST, with a mixed bag of level shifted & not (or hell, not even 50s yet). They're not all speed-oriented teams, but almost all of them run at +0.
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Quick Strike is, so far, the only confirmed power where -1s get knocked back instead of down. I think it should be fixed. Are there any others?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Shockwave, for scrappers, does knockdown against +4s. Level shifted claws scrappers soloing +4s are now at a distinct disadvantage because enemies get knocked back.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Quick Strike is, so far, the only confirmed power where -1s get knocked back instead of down. I think it should be fixed. Are there any others?
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*There is snark here.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I have 2 lvl shifted Super Strength brutes and neither of them sees any knockback problems fighting 50's.