By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2011-03-19 22:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Your getting into pretty-little-head territory
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Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I see the Well as an omnipotent kid that just found a new toy. Attributing good or evil to a sentient energy source is foolish since it doesn't have the same perceptions as we do. It is the interaction between people that define good and evil. If I lived on a world where it was just me and plants and animals, then good and evil would have no meaning since I couldn't help or harm someone.
The reason why Recluse and Statesman avoid the well is due to the fact that they like to stay in control. Even if the Well controlled Recluse to achieve the World he desires, he would hate every minute of it because it is not Recluse creating his ideal world, but a Well puppet that did it.
I appreciate the discussion; many interesting replies.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
the well is a source of power that seems to have some self direction, and it seems to favor cole, thats what we know, i wouldnt make it an ultimate source of power just yet, its just a really strong power. I wouldn't be surprised if the coming storm is a force of equal or greater power.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Mentioning Incarnate powers and then saying 'Such as the Well of Furies, etc etc' would have been just fine. It would also have let people determine their own source of power, wether it was indeed the Well or a deity, or spirits, or uber high-tech, or shear consumption of enough anti-freeze that they became more super and 100% more blue.
But, no, we instead get straight-jacketed with 'The Well is GOD! OBEY THE WELL MYTHOS!', which I still don't buy frankly, and nor do most of my characters, IC or OOC. *shrug* |
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Presumably the devs want to drive their own game's story forward by tying characters into the lore. I don't really see the problem here, can't you just ignore the parts you don't like and make up your own reasoning?
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Originally Posted by Melancton
I appreciate the discussion; many interesting replies.
This is a possibility, but the Well has currently been singled out as "the" way to become "Incarnate" as I interpret the presentation. You could be right, but I also do not sense the Coming Storm as being particularly different morality-wise from the Well. I think this is my own biggest objection. The Well is "it." The Well is "the" source. And yes, I "Mystery Science 3000" that aspect, but I am not happy that the official lore makes the ultimate force of the universe the Well. It does not officially affirm Good nor Evil, but just the desire to have Power. I think the Devs figured that makes it "Neutral," but by favoring Cole, I cannot see how that does not make it "Evil." Well, I am, and I suppose a lot of folks are. But at some point, the game may well go over a line officially that endorses things that will make me too uncomfortable to go on. To use an extreme example: I will not play the Grand Theft Auto series because of the official presentation of a number of crimes and other acts; it is no good trying to ignore it and pretend it is really a Smurfs adventure. I have no problem with game mechanics that allow Vigilantes and outright Villains, because they are on parallel tracks to the same general level of power. You are not shoehorned to a particular moral decision in order to hit level 50, say. Not so if you want the next level of power, which the Devs have unfortunately presented as it stands. The Well of Furies previously was something non-sentient and passive; simply "a" means of becoming Super. Two guys found it, drank from it and the uses that they made of the abilities that resulted were guided by their respective moralities. That is different from a sentient Well making what are ultimately moral choices by favoring the evil Tyrant above all. Further, we are told that the Well has to be "resisted" or it will take you over completely. While this is all presented as not having any particular morality, and thus "amoral," I would agree with those that have concluded the Well is acting in an Evil fashion, and if Stupid is as Stupid does, the Well is Evil. And the Well is running the whole show as it is presented. So I ignore that aspect for the moment, since it is incompatible with my own lore. I am just getting antsy that the Devs will push this further and further to where participating at the highest level will mean having, if I may draw the comparison, to wear some form of an armband that I do not ever care to wear. |
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Originally Posted by Venture
No sane, ethical person would have anything to do with the Well as described.
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Originally Posted by Dante
I'm doing my best but the Devs won't let me.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Are you saying you aren't thrilled that you now GET to share an origin with Marcus Cole, the most heroic and yet most vile, most powerful and yet most emotionally vulnerable, most humorless and yet most charismatic man ever to live in any timeline, plane of existence, or marketing campaign since the dawn of Adam (who, it will later be revealed, was actually an aspect of Marcus Cole)?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Anyway, I feel the key mistake here was in trying to make the well sentient, which I really don't think was necessary. I DO know why it was done, however: the same reason all of Going Rogue's missions were written as they are - to be intentionally morally ambiguous. We spent years asking for choice, which the developers appear to have interpreted as asking for a morally ambiguous environment, which I'm not sure is the correct reading of that request.
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| I'm not even sure how much sentience the thing has. It doesn't appear to have a very complex, nuanced character shaped by experience, belief and emotion, so much as it appears to be a broken record going on about power and will and power and will and power. I see the Well less like a character and more like a mcguffin, just one capable of vocalising its actions. |
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Presumably the devs want to drive their own game's story forward by tying characters into the lore. I don't really see the problem here, can't you just ignore the parts you don't like and make up your own reasoning?
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Originally Posted by Melancton
And yes, I "Mystery Science 3000" that aspect, but I am not happy that the official lore makes the ultimate force of the universe the Well. It does not officially affirm Good nor Evil, but just the desire to have Power. I think the Devs figured that makes it "Neutral," but by favoring Cole, I cannot see how that does not make it "Evil."
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| I have no problem with game mechanics that allow Vigilantes and outright Villains, because they are on parallel tracks to the same general level of power. You are not shoehorned to a particular moral decision in order to hit level 50, say. Not so if you want the next level of power, which the Devs have unfortunately presented as it stands. |
| The Well of Furies previously was something non-sentient and passive; simply "a" means of becoming Super. Two guys found it, drank from it and the uses that they made of the abilities that resulted were guided by their respective moralities. That is different from a sentient Well making what are ultimately moral choices by favoring the evil Tyrant above all. Further, we are told that the Well has to be "resisted" or it will take you over completely. While this is all presented as not having any particular morality, and thus "amoral," I would agree with those that have concluded the Well is acting in an Evil fashion, and if Stupid is as Stupid does, the Well is Evil. And the Well is running the whole show as it is presented. So I ignore that aspect for the moment, since it is incompatible with my own lore. I am just getting antsy that the Devs will push this further and further to where participating at the highest level will mean having, if I may draw the comparison, to wear some form of an armband that I do not ever care to wear. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
But, no, we instead get straight-jacketed with 'The Well is GOD! OBEY THE WELL MYTHOS!'
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Anyway, I feel the key mistake here was in trying to make the well sentient, which I really don't think was necessary.
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Originally Posted by Venture
How do you know that, or more importantly how do our characters know that? The claim that "a little won't hurt" is, as it happens, the standard method for inducing corruption. No sane, ethical person would have anything to do with the Well as described.
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Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
If we don't, though, we'd have to start stealing stuff from Malta.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Lady Grey is just another chick with superpowers who won't come clean about her background.
The competition has already told that story. It didn't end well for the protagonist, or about, oh, half the population of the planet he was standing on at the time. For that matter, if there was ever any shred of decency in Tyrant (which I doubt), your position was also his. |
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Originally Posted by starphoenix
I see the Well as an omnipotent kid that just found a new toy.
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| If we don't, though, we'd have to start stealing stuff from Malta. |
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I see the problem as the devs want to drive their own game's story forward by tying characters into the lore. They don't need to do that, they shouldn't do that, the lore should be there for our characters to tie themselves into however they see fit.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Who, as it happens, already has a weapon designed to disrupt powers taken from the Well. I'm guessing we'll never have a chance to fire an Orestes Rifle at Tyrant or his crew, though.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Who, as it happens, already has a weapon designed to disrupt powers taken from the Well. I'm guessing we'll never have a chance to fire an Orestes Rifle at Tyrant or his crew, though.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
But they've been doing this since day 1. Heroes are registered with the FBSA and are forced to work with an origin-specific department. Villains are Destined Ones. There are countless examples of the game forcing you into its lore, I don't see why this is any different.
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| Presumably the Orestes Rifle only works on Incarnates who took the easy path to power, not True Incarnates like Tyrant. |
You know the well might not be the one talking and grabbing champions. The well itself could be a none sentient energy field that grants the ability for super powers to exist.
The talky Mc Gee could just be some BBEG that's trapped within the Well, that's encouraging people to become incarnates so they'll directly tap the well and thus either become a puppet for the BBEG or possibly weaken the Well enough that the BBEG can escape.
In a later issue we have the BBEG escape and our long route heroes must fight him/her/it with their none direct incarnate powers, meanwhile the BBEG tries to take over the universe with its army of direct incarnate mind slaves?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
That ^
Also, why tie it so explicitally to the well in the first place? Mentioning Incarnate powers and then saying 'Such as the Well of Furies, etc etc' would have been just fine. It would also have let people determine their own source of power, wether it was indeed the Well or a deity, or spirits, or uber high-tech, or shear consumption of enough anti-freeze that they became more super and 100% more blue. But, no, we instead get straight-jacketed with 'The Well is GOD! OBEY THE WELL MYTHOS!', which I still don't buy frankly, and nor do most of my characters, IC or OOC. *shrug* |
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Originally Posted by Seschat
Nah, the Well wants a corporeal bod so it can get laid. 'Nuff said.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You're about page too late
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
But, no, we instead get straight-jacketed with 'The Well is GOD! OBEY THE WELL MYTHOS!', which I still don't buy frankly, and nor do most of my characters, IC or OOC.
*shrug* |
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Originally Posted by Melancton
...a sentient, semi-to-mostly-all powerful being that acts like a 9th grader who has read a lot of Nietzsche.
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Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
I'm still trying to find the quote that shows that the Well is the actual source of all super powers.
Is it really the Well itself that's sentient, or something in the Well? |
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Originally Posted by galadiman
I cannot imagine a more frightening thing anywhere.
It is uncool that you have frightened me to the point that now I have to change my pants. The people sitting around me at my workplace do not appreciate this. |
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
So you're saying the source of all super-powers, the fueller of Tyrants insane rampage across multiple dimesions is Little Timmy O'Toole?
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