It's the journey, not the destination: Really?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-03-18 07:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Some people seem think that CoH "got it right" purely by accident.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Pretty much this. If the road to the reward is a slog then it's not worth it.
So far COH has gotten this right. Let's see if they still have come issue 20. I'm betting on they have. |
Judging by the way the original design team worked, I would have to agree.
Whether the current design team is working to correct that error or not remains to be seen.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Having tried them on test, if you like the newer task forces, you'll likely like the incarnate trials - they're difficult, but they play more like a task force than any of the raids in this game which usually just become freeze-frame button mashing. The trials have mini-objectives, and feel like you're accomplishing something throughout. When I finished my first MSR, I couldn't help but think "That's it?"
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I've been playing nearly 6 years now, 1.5 of them US side. Last week I dinged my first US (and 3rd overall) level 50. (I should be adding another this week as my Widow/Fort is at 48).
So yep, tis about the journey for me, I wasn't even aware I had a destination to be honest. I've no real interest in the Incarnate TFs really or the Incarnate abilities. (I'll probably try the trials though just to see what they're like). |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
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I'm pretty much the same. In fact, the incarnate system technically is supposed to be FOR people like us who like to explore the game mechanic space (i.e. Character Builds), but if it's made to be too grindy or long for a single character (and from what I hear, it may be), then people like us lose interest quickly, because the grind gets boring really fast.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I'm going to refer to the Bartle types -- the four types of MMO players, first described by sociologist Richard Bartle.
For Achievers, it's all about the destination. For Killers, it's all about the power, which implies the destination. For Socializers it's the journey. If they get to the destination too quickly, there's nothing to talk about. For Explorers, it varies. If they're exploring the game content, they enjoy the journey of going through and mastering the new challenges. But once they've mastered them, further play over the same content becomes a grind. If the explorers are exploring the game mechanic space (i.e: Character Builds) they may be more focused on the destination, because their new character creation will only be complete when they have the powers it grants. As an explorer/achiever myself, I'm a bit worried about i20. I've already given up on ever getting a 'very rare' alpha slot, because it's too grindy for me. If the new slots in i20 are that difficult to get (and it sounds as though they may be) then I may not participate much in the new incarnate system. Which would probably lead to me no longer participating in CoX, as incarnates are the new focus of the game. We'll see. |
I guess we'll see. I'm not dumping the new system until I get a chance to go through it all completely at least once. If it feels too grindy or long for a single toon at that point, then I'll feel justified in not participating in that part of the game. However, the explorer in me won't allow me to do that until I've at least had the chance to "explore" it....
Personally, I'm one of those people that spends as much time in Mid's as they do in the game, so for me, I like to play my toons at 50. I like playing a "completed" character, regardless of whether or not he gets exemp'd down for a TF or to help out some lower level characters. I like the feeling that I have "mastered" that character--not necessarily the AT. A big part of that for me is experimenting with different builds in any and all situations, so I guess in a way, that part of it is my own "journey" per-say, but it is always done with the destination of "mastering/completing" the character, so I can have it "on-call" for difficult tasks or team challenges that I may find myself in or be invited to.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
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Underhanded criticism aside, there's a serious flaw in this logic, or at least as I understand it.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
I've never minded working toward a never ending goal but I'm quickly understanding that I am a minority of people(or at least a silent majority) who do not want instant gratification.
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One cannot work towards a "never-ending" goal, because that's working for a goal which can never be achieved. When a goal cannot be achieved, it makes no difference how great it is. If you know it's impossible to achieve, then there is no point in working for it.
The only way a never-ending goal can be worth pursing is if it's not the goal that matters, but the journey spent in pursuing. Hence, the journey. However, such a journey cannot and should not be referred to as "work," because work it ain't. It's fun, else we wouldn't be on it, what with there being no end goal to it.
"Working for an endless goal" is an empty premise, because it implies you don't like the work, but know you will never get to the goal. This is not a valid motivation for players at large, and I'm confident enough to state that as a fact. You need to reward your players, either with a great journey, or with a reward at the end. Having neither makes for a horrible game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It is about the journey, not the destination to me. Except my definitions of journey and destinations may differ from other peoples.
For me, journey refers to the immediate emotional experience I have with the game when I log on and play every session, rather than a chase of a reward as destination.
Is the story and the rationale for my character hitting things interesting? Am I experiencing little storylets of beginning, middle and end with interesting characters? Can I immerse myself in the situation and pretend how my different superheroes would react, even if I dont outwardly RP? Are the enemies Im facing interesting (visually different, or reacting in tactically different ways)? Is the setting Im in for this mission interesting (visually again, or conceptually or tactically)? Is the actual flow and feel of the combat smooth and thrilling and exciting? Are there fun opportunities for team synergies? Can I make interesting choices and decisions in the course of play, be it where to spend my game time for the day, what to do, or even which powers to appropriately use?
All of the above empower me and make me feel like the journey is FUN.
Conversely, if I am repeating motions and actions that I have always repeated, or can predict with my eyes closed where the enemy is and what it will do, it threatens to become boring (though my tolerance for repetitive combat grind is quite high as I can fall into a combat zen state.)
If my decisions become funneled by design and fueled by negative discomforting emotions to catch up with the Joneses, or feel obligated to do certain things I dont enjoy in order to unlock future new content, eg. interacting with a mass of teeming players to coordinate them via chat or voice in some fashion to accomplish a goal, earning a piece of supreme loot in order to get more powerful so that I can see the new content, earning more currency in order to get a recipe in order to craft another object in order to
Yeah, I start feeling a little led around by the nose, or a rat in a Skinner box, and my instinctive impulse once I recognize the manipulation is to stop. Because the journey (and it is a journey, of progression even if its a boring one for me personally) is not fun for me.
I happen to be an odd duck mix of Explorer-Achiever who has burnt out with raid-like grinds long ago. Im fine with there being a destination, or an attractive goal to reach. Thats my Achiever side speaking up, asking for a nice gradual sense of progression to a cool reward. But my ever-watchful Explorer, having slapped my Achiever silly some time ago when it got loose and turned me into a rabid greedy selfish monster, now insists that the journey to get to the destination must be enjoyable. If Im not having fun, the destination is not worth suffering through a lousy journey to reach.
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Isn't the question of whether it's a slog dependent on how you feel about it in the first place? Pretty much this game is all about beating up polygons over and over with different window dressing. If you go into a particular goal with the mindset that you're just going to have fun beating up polygons then I doubt anything will feel like a slog.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Pretty much this. If the road to the reward is a slog then it's not worth it.
So far COH has gotten this right. Let's see if they still have come issue 20. I'm betting on they have. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Man, I feel bad, because once I hit level 30 and get auras, I have all the shinies I want and stop caring a little about progressing. :P
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In my case "slog" here equates to "Man, I can't wait until level X so I can smack those Polygons with Y"|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Isn't the question of whether it's a slog dependent on how you feel about it in the first place? Pretty much this game is all about beating up polygons over and over with different window dressing. If you go into a particular goal with the mindset that you're just going to have fun beating up polygons then I doubt anything will feel like a slog.
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Once I get there typically play with Y for a few levels and then get distracted by a new combo of powersets and a new series of Level X, Power Y thresholds to work towards.
Generally my main "slog" areas are 14-22 (much improved now) and 33-40ish, which is more down to the zones those levels correspond to (improved by RWZ, Tips and Super sidekicking nowadays but still there a bit for me).
To me, it's the equal enjoyment of making progress (journey) and achieving goals (destinations).
There is no "final" destination, other than quitting the game (for good). So as long as I'm happy on the treadmill, I'll just keep on going.
A big yes for me.
Going thru the various mish along the way helps 'firm-up' the toon (and it's background). And thus keeps you playing. And gives you ideals on how to slot/lvl it.
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I believe this single sentence needs to be printed on t-shirts and handed out to game developers the world over to wear, because it points out a fundamental step that far too many game developers tend to forget about: People come to your game to have fun. You can't tell them that the fun only starts 25 hours in.
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Originally Posted by Lycaeus
If Im not having fun, the destination is not worth suffering through a lousy journey to reach.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This strikes me as telling people that if they go into dinner with the mindset that you love Brussels sprouts, you'll enjoy a dinner made of them. Of course, that ignores that the reason some of them were eating Brussels sprouts all along was because of what was for dessert, or because of the company at dinner. Telling them to enjoy Brussels sprouts when they don't get dessert, or when they don't want to have dinner with the other people there just isn't going to convince them to enjoy that dinner.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
If you go into a particular goal with the mindset that you're just going to have fun beating up polygons then I doubt anything will feel like a slog.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I agree with the Guy. This reminds me of Torak's "I don't like Hotdogs!" sketch.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This strikes me as telling people that if they go into dinner with the mindset that you love Brussels sprouts, you'll enjoy a dinner made of them. Of course, that ignores that the reason some of them were eating Brussels sprouts all along was because of what was for dessert, or because of the company at dinner. Telling them to enjoy Brussels sprouts when they don't get dessert, or when they don't want to have dinner with the other people there just isn't going to convince them to enjoy that dinner.
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-You should try hot dogs.
-I don't like hot dogs.
-But you can put mustard on them.
-I don't like hot dogs.
-They're pretty cheap.
-I don't like hot dogs.
-They go well with sporting events.
-I don't like hot dogs.
-They're not as bad for your health as burgers.
-I don't like hot dogs!
In other words, this is a misunderstanding of the entire point. When a person comes from the standpoint of not liking a particular activity, then ordering said person to like said activity or trying to explain how said activity is not productive. No matter the argument, the fact remains that "I do not like
green eggs and ham."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Wow... You mind if I put this in my signature section?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
People come to your game to have fun. You can't tell them that the fun only starts 25 hours in.
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If you do, just let me know, and I'll take it off.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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You say that like they don't know this. They know this. The problem is that no game will cater to everyone with every piece of itself. Games - MMOs specifically - try to create a diversity of experiences such that *enough* of them will be attractive to enough players to make the game as a whole enjoyable enough to want to spend time playing.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I believe this single sentence needs to be printed on t-shirts and handed out to game developers the world over to wear, because it points out a fundamental step that far too many game developers tend to forget about: People come to your game to have fun. You can't tell them that the fun only starts 25 hours in.
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Whenever a dev says something like "well, if you don't like X, pretty soon it will be Y" players seem to think the devs don't understand that if X isn't fun they should change X. The problem is that often its the players that don't understand that there exists a flip side of players that like X, and dislike Y. The parts of the game you don't like might not be there for you, but they might be there for someone else.
When I roll a new alt, I still play that alt from the tutorial and up through every level. I roll new alts specifically to level them. No part of the game is intrinsicly unfun, just not enjoyable for everyone. Sometimes you can avoid it, sometimes you just have to tolerate it. If it becomes intolerable, that's the point when you either decide to stop playing, or admit its not actually intolerable and keep playing.
As to the original topic, in my opinion games are meant to be played. I don't consider my time in City of Heroes to be either a journey or a destination, because I'm not headed anywhere and I'm not leaving anywhere. I'm just here. The last time I was on vacation in Las Vegas, I don't recall thinking that I was taking a journey through the city. I was just there unwinding. On a micro-level, my characters journey through the game. But I just play it. I know ten thousand times more about the game now than when I first started. I have thousands of hours more experience. Over a hundred more alts to choose to play, besides rolling a new one. But I still play it exactly the same way I did in May of 2004. I log in, I pick a character, I run missions, I make lame jokes. I enjoy playing the game, so on a fundamental level I don't need it to be more than that.
Yes: I pursue things in the game. Levels, influence (if I need it to buy things), badges. But only because the act of pursuit itself is something I will enjoy doing. I have never pursued anything in the game where I was thinking the entire time I hated doing it (River Rat and Zookeeper notwithstanding). I would continue to play the game even if those things didn't exist - although I appreciate the fact that they do. I know this because when I roll a new alt, and she's standing in Outbreak trying to fossilize things to death, none of those things really exist at that moment. And not once in seven years have I ever rolled an alt and thought to myself for even one second "man, I can't wait for this alt to be good." Moreso than practically any other player, I *know* what that alt will eventually become. But right at that moment I'm fossilizing something to death: its already good.
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I have said "I wish this was good" or "does this ever get good?" but never "I can't wait for this to be good." If it ain't good, I'll get bored and abandon it around level 7. I have, however, said "this is good," gone into mids, played with my build pr0n, and said, "this is going to be AWESOME!"
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I know this because when I roll a new alt, and she's standing in Outbreak trying to fossilize things to death, none of those things really exist at that moment. And not once in seven years have I ever rolled an alt and thought to myself for even one second "man, I can't wait for this alt to be good." Moreso than practically any other player, I *know* what that alt will eventually become. But right at that moment I'm fossilizing something to death: its already good.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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I am definitely a journey above destination kinda guy. Having (multiple!) interesting destinations is great, but I prefer a more undirected approach to gameplay. I know for a fact that most gamers do not feel the same way as me, so I don't mind at all that games tend not to cater to how I play... if I can find my own fun, that's enough to keep me playing.
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I fully understand that I am in a minority on this, and have no problem with that, but I am one of the people who is totally fine with not having a goal. In this game, the things that bring me the most pleasure are probably playing random alts with weird powerset combos and running around, exploring the world. To be extra clear... SimCity remains one of my favorite games to this day, and I just got massively into Minecraft. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
A journey with no goal becomes aimless to me, and I will stop exploring it.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
For me it's definitely the journey. I got the post-50 blues after Nightshade hit 50. Same again when I got a hero to 50. Both times I wandered off to play other stuff for a while.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
When I roll a new alt, I still play that alt from the tutorial and up through every level. I roll new alts specifically to level them.
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Yeah, I still enjoy playing lowbies. You level faster when you're tiny!
Proud member of Everyday Heroes (Infinity Heroes), Dream Stalkers (Infinity Villains), Devil Never Cry (Freedom Heroes), Enclave of EVIL (Pinnacle Villains), Phobia (Infinity Villains), Les Enfant Terribles (Freedom Villains), Gravy Train (Virtue Heroes), and more!
Full, detailed character list
"After a time you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." - Spock
I'll stand by that exactly as quoted.
Since everyone seems to be on the side of the "journey" and patting themselves on the back for it I will come out on the side of the "destination." I hate leveling up in this game, I hate playing through endless missions of beat up -generic villain group here-, and most of all I really hate levels 1-35. I do love playing a level 50 character and IOing them out, to bad the only way to do that is by running the same content that I have been running for 50 levels to get anything accomplished. But wait! They are finally adding content designed for and rewarding for level 50! Ohh...people are doing nothing but complaining about it and hoping that it goes the way of PvP and gets ignored for years after it is released...
So yeah, as Arcanaville put it there are people in both camps and for the longest time in this game there was no destination, now that they are building one it is a problem? Let us have ours, you journey folks have had this game for years now and while I enjoy this game I typically can't play it for more than a month because there is little left for me to work towards, finally I get something to work towards and it is the end of the world?
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
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I have no hate towards endgame. I hope it's very successful, and that the destination type people have fun with it! I'll be spending plenty of time tinkering with it myself, too. Can't speak for anyone else, but I am not yelling doom at all. |
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
So yeah, as Arcanaville put it there are people in both camps and for the longest time in this game there was no destination, now that they are building one it is a problem? Let us have ours, you journey folks have had this game for years now and while I enjoy this game I typically can't play it for more than a month because there is little left for me to work towards, finally I get something to work towards and it is the end of the world?
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Proud member of Everyday Heroes (Infinity Heroes), Dream Stalkers (Infinity Villains), Devil Never Cry (Freedom Heroes), Enclave of EVIL (Pinnacle Villains), Phobia (Infinity Villains), Les Enfant Terribles (Freedom Villains), Gravy Train (Virtue Heroes), and more!
Full, detailed character list
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More specifically, I was referring to the comments made about Final Fantasy XIII. When people complained about the game running them down linear corridors though a plot which made little sense, they were told that the game got better about 25 hours in. This is not an acceptable approach to game design, yet developers continue to approach games this way. I'm much likely to share the opinion of the Escapist Magazine's Extra Credit - if you don't capture the players' interest within the first 10 minutes, they're not likely to stick around to where it actually gets good.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You say that like they don't know this. They know this. The problem is that no game will cater to everyone with every piece of itself. Games - MMOs specifically - try to create a diversity of experiences such that *enough* of them will be attractive to enough players to make the game as a whole enjoyable enough to want to spend time playing.
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For a more domestic examples, look at Controllers. Every now and then, someone will complain that they don't do enough damage, or that levelling them up is painful or whatnot. That person will be told that they are just fine, because Controllers become awesome when they get their pets at level 32 (Mind Control notwithstanding, obviously), which is an argument that baffles me. If it sucks out the door and I have to wait for what is ostensibly 2/3 through the game, then the wait ain't worth it.
Furthermore, take your conventional end game and what it tends to do to people. Specifically, the notion that "the real game starts at 60." Or is that 70 or 80 now? The notion that the game itself is a chore which must be sidestepped wherever possible for the sole purpose of getting to the level cap, where the REAL game starts.
You claim to play just because the game is fun, and this is a credit to your character. I respect that. But to a great many people, this is not the case, as evidenced by the fact that they seek ways to NOT play the game if they can get away with it, all for the sake of earning a specific reward. RMT wouldn't exist were that not the case.
In general, I have a profound disrespect for the "carrot on a stick" approach to game design, because its cornerstone philosophy is to goad players into playing something they will not enjoy playing, because they're not doing so for the love of the game, but are rather working for a reward. Throwing great rewards at horrible tasks should never be a preferred solution.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I would argue that hidden behind that oversimplification is a deeper design statement, namely that controllers have a different power leveling curve than other archetypes, and there's nothing wrong with that for those that are willing to accept it. When my blaster reached 32, she got Nova. A flashy, fun power that occasionally has significant usage. But fundamentally, she was no different than at 31. In fact, energy blasters are never very different than when they reach 26 and get explosive blast. From that point on everything else is refinements on what they already have for the most part. They build out quickly and stabilize. My illusion/radiation controller, on the other hand, changed constantly, when she got phantom army, when she got spectral terror, when she got phantasms, even when she got EMP. Her power curve was much more dramatic over time.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
For a more domestic examples, look at Controllers. Every now and then, someone will complain that they don't do enough damage, or that levelling them up is painful or whatnot. That person will be told that they are just fine, because Controllers become awesome when they get their pets at level 32 (Mind Control notwithstanding, obviously), which is an argument that baffles me. If it sucks out the door and I have to wait for what is ostensibly 2/3 through the game, then the wait ain't worth it.
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The important thing to note is that one is not intrinsicly better than the other. Sure, its easy to say that flashy and dramatic changes are intrinscly better, but that also breeds the very impatience you mention some people experience in wanting to "get to the end." Some things mature quickly, and then level off. Some start off lower and accelerate upward. This, like many other elements of the game, are attractive to different people. *You* shouldn't like controllers just because they get better later. But controllers might be just fine because they get better later, for the people that want to see things get better constantly.
If you want a stepper performance curve, you have to start lower and end higher. If you don't want to start lower than absolutely necessary, you will have a much less noticable increase in performance over time. These are absolute statements about leveling. Its one thing to say the devs should never make the early game slower, but that also ties their hands when it comes to making things faster as players go along.
Condemn the devs for handing out weaknesses, and you remove their ability to give out strengths as well. Whether a weakness is tolerable is a highly individualistic decision.
One more thing about controllers. My blaster leveled to 50 almost 80% solo. 95% solo from one to 30. But my Ill/Rad was the first alt I leveled at least 50% through teaming. And if you team, there's no such thing as leveling slowly. You level at the same speed as everyone else, because unless you die and acrue debt, you cannot level slower than the rest of your team (unless this is the old days and you're a significantly higher level than everyone else). The slower leveling for early levels for controllers is something a significant number of players never see, because so long as they team a majority of the time with that character, it is impossible to see. And its not a wild notion to suggest that a support character might tend to appeal to teamers more than soloers.
The fine distinction here is this: I can't and shouldn't convince you or anyone else that some problematic situation is fine for you because that situation comes with a compensating advantage. That's for you to decide. However, I can say that the offsetting advantages and disadvantages are fair and if you don't like them, you should just avoid them and concede they are there for someone else other than you, rather than try to eliminate them from the game when other people might appreciate them.
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| In general, I have a profound disrespect for the "carrot on a stick" approach to game design, because its cornerstone philosophy is to goad players into playing something they will not enjoy playing, because they're not doing so for the love of the game, but are rather working for a reward. Throwing great rewards at horrible tasks should never be a preferred solution. |
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Big kudos for quoting Spock.|
Originally Posted by MrNotorion
"After a time you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." - Spock
I'll stand by that exactly as quoted. |
I'll say this: I've grown to be a journey>destination kind of guy. I admit, when I first got in the game, I was all about the destination. I had just gotten a superhero video game! Sure, I had a ton of background story ideas and origin tales, but I wanted my own characters to be as epic and powerful as the major ones in the comic book universes. And I wanted it NAO!
Then I adapted. I figured out how the game works, and that there was much more fun to be had if I focused on making those origin stories and the like actually playable, rather than simple words in the bio section of my ID. Now, I definitely play more for the journey.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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Sums up my whole stance better than I have been able to in weeks and I get paid to argue! |
Originally Posted by MrNotorion
"After a time you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." - Spock
I'll stand by that exactly as quoted. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
So yep, tis about the journey for me, I wasn't even aware I had a destination to be honest.
I've no real interest in the Incarnate TFs really or the Incarnate abilities. (I'll probably try the trials though just to see what they're like).