Quote:
So why not search for it and see that you are indeed, not mistaken. Read whats there, realise that you have nothing to add to the subject, and also realise its not something the vocal majority want, and the Devs have basically told us (albeit a while ago) they don't want it.
|
Originally Posted by mike1alpha
I would be quite surprised to learn if this topic has not already been discussed,
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
|
Roll another character. Mission accomplished.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec
and here;
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec
and of course here;
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec
and another one here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec
and yet again another one... here.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec
and have you seen this one here?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec
and of course my favorite because a few folks thought I was being serious.... 
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=224711
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Just in case anyone reading this thread is curious as to the main reason why without clicking on the listed links.
In Short; Won't happen due to exploitation.
It'd be too easy to roll up a toon that sails through the 1-40 game but then struggles, only to switch to another toon that sails through endgame, thus bypassing the struggle early on.
You'd have people rolling up Blasters and Scrappers just to blaze to 32 and then switch to a Controller already with Pets...
But seriously. If you reached 50 in such an amazingly fast rate, just roll another one. If your that attached to the concept/story it's easy enough to imagine he's your praetorian version that shares the same outlook, only with slightly varied powers, etc etc...
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
@Mega_Jamie
I searched, maybe not too hard - did not find what I was looking to discuss, so I made this thread. Here we are. I used 'powerset respec', 'respec' as my keywords - didn't find the threads that Rangle had linked to. So not sure what happened there.
@DarkGob
Yeah, but not was I was thinking about doing with a level 50. If I had a toon around level 15, I'd consider it.
@MaestroMavius
Wasn't exactly what I was talking about. I'm not talking about changing AT, just primary and secondary powersets; and even then, not being able to do it very often.
I think it would be unique to be able to take an idea for a toon, push them through the game and then 'evolve' them into a different type of toon - especially with being able to change your alignment - SAME ARCHETYPE. Example: Fire/fire dom villain that turns into a cold/fire dom hero.
I like using my blaster, but I just wish I had chosen differently for my primary powersets. And with the advent of incarnate, I'm not re-rolling my 50 just to have a toon with powers I think would be more 'suited'.
Also, I've been playing my level 50 off and on for the nearly 2 years I've been subscribed to CoH. Again, another reason I'm not going to re-roll.
Even sticking to the same AT you'd have issues with exploitation.
Take for instance the sets that mainly deal Smashing/Lethal damage.
Not heavily resisted early on but towards the endgame it is.
As an aside, there are various other long winded reasons why this isn't going to happen. It's one of the most brought up, and refutted suggestions. This side of Vehicles.
You really enjoy your 50. So don't worry about changing him, the Incarnate slots will allow you to further flesh him out with Fire or Ice or whatever.
Each powerset/combo plays differently than the other. So if you've played Fire/Ice for 50 levels and then suddenly respec into a Psy/MM how are you going to know your attack chain? Your specific weakness and strength? When you would've been struggling to reach level 27 and realized this certain power would really help your build... except now you just skipped right over the learning curve and don't have a clue that you'd need such and such...
In short, we don't need another round of 50's not knowing how to play their AT.
To wit: AE Babies
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
Positron once said hat the game was intended to encourage the creation of alts, and that a "powerset respec" was out of the question as being completely contradictory with this directive.
I'm interested to see how well this notion fares post Incarnates.
Either way - this has been discussed before and has been rejected out of hand by the developers themselves, in words direct enough that they don't appear to be subject to being convinced otherwise.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
No reason the Incarnate system should deter altitis. Most people I know who suffer from altitis have a few 50's and well.. anywhere from 20-200 lower level alts.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Positron once said hat the game was intended to encourage the creation of alts, and that a "powerset respec" was out of the question as being completely contradictory with this directive.
I'm interested to see how well this notion fares post Incarnates. Either way - this has been discussed before and has been rejected out of hand by the developers themselves, in words direct enough that they don't appear to be subject to being convinced otherwise. |
Edit: Darn buttons. didn't intend to quote anyone. ;p
It has been discussed (It's hard to find a topic that hasn't been I expect) I would love it. Alas unlikely.
Cheers though! 
Quote:
Also, there are a number of sets that start out good and taper off in high levels, while there are other sets that struggle early and turn into powerhouses later. |
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Even sticking to the same AT you'd have issues with exploitation.
Take for instance the sets that mainly deal Smashing/Lethal damage. Not heavily resisted early on but towards the endgame it is. |
Imagine, if you will, leveling as a Fire/Regen scrapper, which levels very quickly, without much downtime in the early game.
If the OP got his wish you would then be able to respec into being an Electric/Shield scrapper, which struggles early but gets stupidly powerful at high levels.
You'd get to have your cakewalk and eat it too, which is something the devs have mentioned repeatedly that they don't want happening. Their other reasoning is that it undoes a lot of work they did trying to make the game alt-friendly, if you can level 1 character to 50 and respec it whenever you want to play a different powerset, there would be no need to roll more characters.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
These comments always amuse me.|
Originally Posted by mike1alpha
I'm not re-rolling my 50 just to have a toon with powers I think would be more 'suited'.
Also, I've been playing my level 50 off and on for the nearly 2 years I've been subscribed to CoH. Again, another reason I'm not going to re-roll. |
Fine Mike, if you are dead set against rolling up another character then that's your perogative. Just be aware that the devs have flat out told us that they will never allow powerset respecs.
But please feel free to hang around waiting for more end game content to be added. I hope there's enough of it to keep you from getting bored while everyone else is having fun rolling up new characters.
Quote:
Oh goodie! One of those threads had Memphis Bill's Copy/Paste.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec and here; http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec and of course here; http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec and another one here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec and yet again another one... here. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec and have you seen this one here? http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ghlight=respec and of course my favorite because a few folks thought I was being serious.... http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=224711 |
Quote:
| Why a full respec is not a good idea for COH. |
Quote:
|
So, you've played your Apathy/Dual Wet Noodle Tank to 50 and decided you don't like him. You've come to the forums and said "Why not let me completely respec the character!" Well, people consider a "full respec" to be different things. I'm going to cover a complete and total character respec. If some of them don't apply, well, this comes up enough for this to be a copy and paste reply. There are four things that the developers and game see as defining your character: 1. Archetype 2. Origin 3. Primary powerset 4. Secondary powerset When people talk about a full respec, they're either talking about the powersets or the whole enchilada. A Respec is short for respecification - altering what your character can do. This can be through reordering the levels you took powers, reassigning slots, and/or changing power pools. You'll note that none of this touches on changing the four listed items. The reason being that if any of those change, it's not the same character. A respec is not recreation or reimagining. It's tweaking your character a bit. Now, let's go through some of these "full respecs." Primary/Secondary You're sure to hear this repeated a good bit - Just because you've played one set, doesn't mean you know how to play them all. For instance, my namesake tank is a Fire/Superstrength tank. I know how he plays. The most similar powerset to him at the time of writing is Dark Armor. It's resistance based, it has no knockback protection, it has a damage aura, a self heal that does damage - it even has a self rez as its tier9. They don't play anything alike. (I can say this, because I also have a version that's DA/SS.) Fire has no Psi protection. It has no stealth. Burn has a far different effect than Oppressive Gloom, and nothing similar to Cloak of Fear. It calls for a thoroughly different style of play. With Fire, I can leave my toggles on and go to town. With Dark Armor, I have to be selective, or the times I have to herd stragglers (for instance) won't work exceptionally well. Dark Armor also does not have anything like Consume to help out with Endurance - that's in Dark Melee. With "similar" sets being that different - try Fire vs Stone. Or Invulnerability. You now have a set at or near 50 (when most people seem to mention wanting this - "I have a 50 that...") that you don't know how to slot effectively (which means you'll be doing *at least* one more respec) and don't know how to play effectively. That's just changing *one* side of the equation. Now add in, say, going from Stone Melee to Dark Melee. Different effects, with *very* different affects on your survivability. And you won't know how to slot that, either, or how well they synergize. Similarly, a Stormie plays vastly differently from an Empath, or a Dark, or a Rad. Earth Control is nothing like Illusion. Combo-chasing with Dual Blades won't help you with Martial Arts. How do I know that this ends up being a mess? Beta testing. The devs have, on rare occasion, bumped up characters to specific levels. The most notable was when Recluse's Victory came out for testing. Everyone was made level 40 - and it was a *mess.* Sure, people made copies of their own characters, and those worked out. Then there were those (many, many of those) who said "Hey, I've never had a X/Y before, I'll make one of those!" Like I said, it was a mess. You could very easily tell who had done that versus making copies of characters they knew. Now, yes, over time you'll learn your powerset - but in the meantime, you're not going to be very effective, or very happy. Archetype Now, given what I just said about powersets, imagine a *whole different AT.* Your tank is now an Empath? Really? You know how to survive as a Blaster because you played a Scrapper? And don't even get me started on epics. If *sets* are that different, Archetype is that times ten. Impact on enhancements IOs are a big part of the game right now. Think about IO'ing out your character. You get your KB protection, sets and the like, potentially spending millions (or more) on finishing up these sets, or working on merits or whatnot. Now, you change your primary - again, we'll take a tank - from a resistance based one to a defense based one. Guess what is now useless to you. You *may* have a power to stick that resist set in, somewhere, but now you're defense based - and those resist sets dont' work for you any more. That Knockback set isn't taken any more. It's even worse when you say you want to switch AT - what is a Blaster going to do with a resist set? What is a Scrapper going to do with Sting of the Manticore or Malaise's Illusions? This isn't even touching on the fact that *you could only retain ten enhancements.* That's 1 2/3 six-slotted powers. And you'd have nobody to blame for all that lost time and INF but yourself... Origin Origin holds a strange place in this list. I'm just going to touch on it briefly. Origin used to matter *vastly,* back in pre-beta. It determined how many powers you could learn and how skilled you could get with them. The system was scrapped, and for a long time it was mostly an RP item, as well as determining which enhancements you could use. It now has *some* impact in the game with some temp powers - the "helper" power you get at level 1 (throwing knives, taser, mutagen, etc.) as well as some of the vet powers. The main impact, though, would be if you'd equipped with DOs or SOs, with the lost INF. That said, you would be able to get some of it back. Origin's probably the least of the problems with a full respec. Though some would, of course, complain that they no longer get a damage bonus or what have you - and who knows what the devs may do with this in the future. Gameplay There are also three other things to consider. 1. The game is designed around alts. Seriously. If this were Guild Wars, for instance, with severely limited slots, I could see wanting to do a complete respec. But by default, you can make over 100 characters before feeling a pinch - and can purchase up to 24 additional slots per server, if you so choose. Don't like one set, make some others and try them out. 2. It's just not that hard to level. Seriously... it's not. With half debt inside missions, patrol XP, double XP weekends, XP smoothing, XP adjustments (typically up,) debt reduction everywhere... it just *isnt'* hard to level. And levelling "honestly" means you're learning your powersets, how they work with each other and others and hopefully how to use them best - which will only make you a stronger player. 3. The devs say "no." The devs have said no. They devs will continue to say no. The most recent "no" being the 4/2010 Q&A. So this is not just player opinion. In closing, let me just say "No. Roll an alt." |
Quote:
I like the idea, I don't know how it would be added to the game, but never the less, I too support this idea. I have a few characters that I've had since day 1 wen the game was released that I'd love to switch out either my primary or secondary due to newer and better sets that have come outm be it for person reasons or thematic reasons. Just limit the power set respec to either a secondary or a primary respec, not bothm and they can only choose to do one or the other.|
Originally Posted by mike1alpha
I would be quite surprised to learn if this topic has not already been discussed, but I've been thinking about this for some time. As I almost got my first toon to 50, my brother helped me out time and again (usually with his tank, my toon being a blaster).
Probably almost around level 40+ I started to realize I wish I had chosen a different powerset for my blaster. Not wanting to start over from scratch or to delete my toon, I kept at it and now I've got him up to 50 and alpha slotted. I'm still wishing I could have chosen a different powerset. I know, I know.. the lot of you probably are probably thinking "Welllll... just start a new toon with the powersets you're really wanting" Except that I really enjoy my toon and the backstory I've given him, and not to mention all the badgeys I've gotten thus far. So.. my point? Why isn't there some type of powerset respecification? I'm not talking the current power respec where you can change the order and level in which you had selected your powers and reslot your enhancements - I'm talking complete powerset changes. My blaster is energy/electric. I'd love to be able to try a different set (let's just say fire/energy, just to throw it out there), and perhaps one more befitting of my toon. I figure anyway with the science pack where you're able to have a complete gender transformation through the tailor - why can't you have a power transformation - either as a respec mish or a trial of somesort. Or maybe even *gasp* being able to pay a nominal fee to get that powerset respec off the bat. Thoughts, anyone? |
/signed
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
Quote:
Beef, I hope that was a bad attempt at sarcasm. |
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
I like the idea, I don't know how it would be added to the game, but never the less, I too support this idea. I have a few characters that I've had since day 1 wen the game was released that I'd love to switch out either my primary or secondary due to newer and better sets that have come outm be it for person reasons or thematic reasons. Just limit the power set respec to either a secondary or a primary respec, not bothm and they can only choose to do one or the other.
/signed |
If not, you obviously missed a few things like:
Quote:
| the devs have flat out told us that they will never allow powerset respecs. |
Quote:
|
Also, there are a number of sets that start out good and taper off in high levels, while there are other sets that struggle early and turn into powerhouses later. Imagine, if you will, leveling as a Fire/Regen scrapper, which levels very quickly, without much downtime in the early game. If the OP got his wish you would then be able to respec into being an Electric/Shield scrapper, which struggles early but gets stupidly powerful at high levels. You'd get to have your cakewalk and eat it too, which is something the devs have mentioned repeatedly that they don't want happening. Their other reasoning is that it undoes a lot of work they did trying to make the game alt-friendly, if you can level 1 character to 50 and respec it whenever you want to play a different powerset, there would be no need to roll more characters. |
Every argument against can be resolved by implementing it as a 'rebirth' starting at 1 but keeping badges.
Any counter to that must be economic IE 'it may be hard to do that because of what happens if a level 1 has X badge.' However beyond implementation speculation there is no reason not to believe it would be a significant improvement to be able to retcon (appropriate name for it), particularly if new powersets become available.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
I believe that's called "Rerolling." Yes, I know, you don't keep badges that way. Other than that, what's the point of implementing a system to reroll 'without rerolling?' You can re-earn defeat badges on the way up. Accolades won't have a potential problem if you reroll. The Incarnate stuff won't have to be "un-earned" (we don't know if it can be or not.)
Want to make some badges global, such as the anniversary ones, to make it less painful? I have no problem with that.
Quote:
You do realize people can like an idea even if the Devs don't?|
Originally Posted by Sharker Quint 1
Beef, I hope that was a bad attempt at sarcasm.
If not, you obviously missed a few things like: Quote:
|
Quote:
|
and this is one of the reasons why they said no: Quote:
|
Quote:
Do us a favor and go back and re-read what Claws wrote until you understand it. It has nothing to do with performance at 50. What Claws wrote was about the journey to 50. You could take one set that levels quickly to begin with and then when it gets tougher later on, switch to another set that doesnt suck leveling at higher levels to 50. Then, when you get to 50, switch at almost anytime you want to any other combo's of powers without rolling an alt. Can you say barren low level content?
|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
You do realize people can like an idea even if the Devs don't?
If we're suppose to roll a new alt when we get to max level, then ease of leveling verses performance at 50 isn't a valid balance point. |
On some levels I can understand Power respectification. On some other levels I don't, and in general don't support this. It does happen in comics I suppose, but not often. So people getting to 50 then deciding they want something else, can't say I am behind this at all.
Memphis Bill's copy/paste covers many of the technical reasons why the devs may be reluctant to allow powerset respec, but it doesn' directly cover the original reason why powerset decisions were even made permanent and irreversible in the first place. Fundamentally, its a cornerstone game design decision that some choices define a character, which others simply flesh the character out. Archetype and powerset specifically define a character, in a way costume and even name do not. Your archetype and powersets *are* your character. The devs wanted some choices to be immutable so you would have to live with them, so that there was a psychological cue that some things about your character are fundamental and couldn't be changed. The logic is that this causes players to more strongly form attachments to characters they like, even if it also turns people off quickly to characters they don't like.
Its considered axiomatically true that fixating certain decisions about your characters in an MMO or a game in general makes the characters seem more real and less like empty shells. And its considered ludicrous to the point of insanity to take chances with this assumption.
Exploitability is a concern, but I'm pretty sure its not the main one. The main one is that you're presenting a fundamentally different game when you change the game from requiring players to play powersets from beginning to end vs allowing them easy ways to play them only at the end. The game this option creates is not a game the devs want anything to do with. Ergo, its not the same thing as suggesting changing the way knockback works or increasing the aggro cap. Its asking the devs to make a completely different game they don't want to make. So the hurdle to convince them to do this is unbelievably high. You'd have to convince the simultaneously to make the game you want and not the game they are currently making, and take a chance of disconnecting a large percentage of players from psychologically investing in their characters, all in one sweep.
I could probably more easily convince them to buy a bridge on the moon.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
For starters, I want to preface this with the fact that while I like the idea of power respecs in theory, I in no way think they will or should be implemented. That being said, it doesn't change my argument, one shouldn't be expected to give up early game performance for late game performance. All power sets should level within acceptable speeds at all level ranges, and if they all do, it shouldn't matter if I change from one to the other.|
Originally Posted by Sharker Quint 1
Do us a favor and go back and re-read what Claws wrote until you understand it. It has nothing to do with performance at 50. What Claws wrote was about the journey to 50. You could take one set that levels quickly to begin with and then when it gets tougher later on, switch to another set that doesnt suck leveling at higher levels to 50.
|
Quote:
| Then, when you get to 50, switch at almost anytime you want to any other combo's of powers without rolling an alt. Can you say barren low level content? |
Quote:
Easy fix, only allow the respec of a Promary or Secondary Powerset once you hit level 50, that way this can't be exploited.|
Originally Posted by Sharker Quint 1
Beef, I hope that was a bad attempt at sarcasm.
If not, you obviously missed a few things like: and this is one of the reasons why they said no: That goes for one/both of the power sets. |
Not that it's that big a deal, the devs just want you to roll another character so you spend more time in the game. There is no reason why this can't be added to the game, they just don't want to. Because they'd "lose money to allow this" instead of making a new alt. It's all about time sink, nothing more.
[B]Leading Badge Holder in the City of Community[/B]
Owner & Operator of...
[URL="http://www.vidiotmaps.com/"]Vidiotmaps.com[/URL] & [URL="http://www.badge-hunter.com/"]Badge-Hunter.com[/URL]
[URL="http://net-warrior.mybrute.com/"][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=darkorange]Challenge My Brute[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/URL]
Power comparison at different levels of the game is a just-plain sucky reason to not allow this. I remember old D&D games. The Wizard is weak a low levels, but this is balanced because at high levels the Wizard becomes the most powerful class in the game, usually much more powerful than a fighter of equal level. I detested that reasoning then and don't favor it here.
Why can't powersets Primaries/Secondaries within an AT just be roughly balanced against each other from start to finish? Shouldn't that be something that's sought after? For one AT, if one powerset is so much better than another at any stage of the game, that's a problem, and should be addressed period - regardless of whether powerset respecs are allowed or not.
Concerning powerset respecs - I don't have a problem with this idea. It's happens in comics ('Electric Blue Superman, anyone...'), provided that you do have to stay within the AT. I also think it should be something hard to attain ('how that is can be open to discussion').
Yes, the devs said no. Not the first time. They could change their minds - wouldn't be the first time... and this is something I don't think most of the players wouldn't want.
/signed
Or maybe they realize that most players are not smart enough to switch from one primary to another without playing it...
Sonic Defender becoming a rad...
Stone Tanker becoming Dark
Illusion Controller becoming a Fire
etc
etc
etc
etc
No thanks I don't need a new NrG blaster who doesn't understand how to play his toon because he switched from Fire.
/unsigned
I would be quite surprised to learn if this topic has not already been discussed, but I've been thinking about this for some time. As I almost got my first toon to 50, my brother helped me out time and again (usually with his tank, my toon being a blaster).
Probably almost around level 40+ I started to realize I wish I had chosen a different powerset for my blaster. Not wanting to start over from scratch or to delete my toon, I kept at it and now I've got him up to 50 and alpha slotted. I'm still wishing I could have chosen a different powerset.
I know, I know.. the lot of you probably are probably thinking "Welllll... just start a new toon with the powersets you're really wanting" Except that I really enjoy my toon and the backstory I've given him, and not to mention all the badgeys I've gotten thus far. So.. my point?
Why isn't there some type of powerset respecification?
I'm not talking the current power respec where you can change the order and level in which you had selected your powers and reslot your enhancements - I'm talking complete powerset changes.
My blaster is energy/electric. I'd love to be able to try a different set (let's just say fire/energy, just to throw it out there), and perhaps one more befitting of my toon. I figure anyway with the science pack where you're able to have a complete gender transformation through the tailor - why can't you have a power transformation - either as a respec mish or a trial of somesort.
Or maybe even *gasp* being able to pay a nominal fee to get that powerset respec off the bat.
Thoughts, anyone?