Powersets and respecifications?

I can see a reason, and its the reason I would advise the devs not to implement this type of respec if they asked my opinion on the matter, although I suspect they already know this. It sets the precedent that power respec is not "game breaking" and the technology to execute it no longer has additional costs associated with it, so that therefore the devs must justify to the players why they cannot have it under more extensive circumstances.

It creates downstream problems I would recommend avoiding if full powerset respec was not a valid option. There's far too much evidence that far too many people believe "why not" is a valid reason for doing something to make the implementation of a slippery slope in this case worth any possible benefit generated from it.

The only opinion that mattered on either topic was the devs. The reasons players were giving CAME FROM THE DEVS!

The devs said power cust was difficult to do but they wanted to do it eventually.

It was and they did.

In terms of powerset respecs they HAVE said they DON'T want to do it. They've never really said much about how difficult it is. (At least as far as I've read).

So the discussion about power customization is NOT the same discussion as powerset respecs.

If they ever do decide to allow it I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Do I think they NEED to do it? NOT AT ALL.
Do I think they SHOULD? NOT AT ALL.

You don't even have to do this.

Just reroll! And give the same concept/backstory to the new character. Either say they've always been the way they are, or say some change happened.

Not that I'm against the idea, could be a one time high level Trial or TF, that just allows you to respec one of the powersets (not AT and powersets), but I understand why they don't allow it.

Its worth noting that in both cases neither was done because it was finally suggested often enough, but because the devs independently changed their minds or the circumstances changed. The devs already know some players want powerset respec, so asking for it again is unlikely to alter the situation any. If powerset respec happens, it will happen because something will happen to cause the devs to radically change their minds about some fundamental design assumptions about this game. That will happen whether powerset respec is suggested a thousand times in the next year, or zero times in the next year.

People have been asking for ED to be repealed for almost as long as they've been asking for powerset respec and probably more total times than powerset respec. Do you believe that the fact that inherent fitness was added says if only enough people ask enough times for a long enough period of time, the devs will repeal ED?

Some things are amenable to that kind of persuasion, some things are not. I don't think powerset respec is one of those things that are.

It isn't. Technical difficulty has never been a significant reason why the devs have failed to offer this option. They don't do it because they really, really, really don't want to, and they are not obligated to prove a feature is technically infeasible to say "no."

Please go back and reread my post. I said "attempts". That's plural with an "s". This isn't the first time you made the argument that the devs said "no" and changed their minds on power customization since it was added to the game.

I'll just quote Aura because this is exactly what I wanted to respond with.

No. What I believe is that "the fact that inherent fitness was added" means that certain suggestions aren't as adamantly impossible as some naysayers would assert, even if they are evidenced to be highly improbable.

I also believe that the Suggestions forum is largely ignored by anyone who matters, so it's not important if suggestions are inevitably repeated (or it's important that they *are* repeated, depending on POV).

Telling people exactly what the devs have told us does not make people naysayers.

Furthermore concerning respecs the devs have never said that powerset and AT respecs were impossible to do. They said they don't want to do it.


There's a world of difference between they can't do it and they aren't going to do it.

Since I didn't make any such argument this time, this isn't ANY time that I've made the argument - first, second, or otherwise. I don't recall making any such argument before, either, but que sera.

Go right ahead. Who am I to stop you from invalidating your own opinion?

I don't believe the devs have ever said about powerset respecs, for instance, "In Short; Won't happen due to exploitation." Maybe I was sick that day. I missed the part where they made laughable assertions about their powersets being so complex as to require multiple levels of painstaking combat to figure out how to play in order to support the aforementioned notion as well.

Certain ones are. Powerset respec is not one of them. I'm not just a blanket nay-sayer, and moreover I've never claimed something was impossible or fundamentally unlikely that has *ever* subsequently happened except when so much time passed that I myself changed my mind about the likelihood of it happening. I've never been caught off guard before in that respect. It is within that context that I say powerset respec is fundamentally unlikely.

With one exception. I thought it incredibly unlikely the devs would ever release a feature like Real Numbers until the day I found out they were actually working on Real Numbers. And the reason why is that I didn't think Castle would approve, and in fact Castle was never crazy about Real Numbers, but unbeknownst to me Castle did not have veto power over Real Numbers. I've never been wrong before or since about the technical or philosophical feasibility of a game change.

Long before the devs would ever allow powerset respec, they would give a sign that such an idea was even on the table. Not in overt obvious ways, but in ways I'm reasonably sure I would detect, unless they just stopped talking publicly altogether.

Which part? This?

Or are you trying to make a big deal out of the standard

Which is a polite way to mollify people to keep them from nerdraging in a public forum.

That DOES sound like they've changed their view. In the past we didn't even get something like that.

Whether it will happen before the servers shut down though is another thing.

"We're thinking about" it is not the same thing as "we'll eventually do it".

EDIT: Also the way they put it "The team has discussed it but wants to avoid facilitating regular respecs for the "optimal" build or flavors of the week." makes it sound like if they do do it folks may not like how they do it.

I can easily see them requiring you to start at level 1 again for instance. Which many folks may not like.

So if the developers say they are against powerset respecs - we should believe that? And when they say they are considering the issue - we should not believe that?

One of the main arguments on the table here is that the developers are dead set against this. And yet 3 days ago they say it is an issue being discussed.

Regarding Arcanaville's assertion that powerset respecs will be a slippery slope downstream to some unknown catastrophe in complete opposition to the direction the developers are taking the game - I can only respond with a polite chuckle. In the last couple of years the developers have given my hero duck new incarnate powers, inherent fitness and three new powers to choose from, a crazy number of very good temporary powers, access to villain powers, the ability to become a villain, the ability to change my duck's body size, the ability to change my duck's gender, the ability to change power colors and so on. So that now my hero can summon up a Mu Adept or maybe some Arachnos Spiderlings, he can become a woman, he can become very tiny, he can become evil, he can summon a giant snowman, he can glow purple. And I love it. And most everyone else seems to love it. But I can't change from Broad Sword to Dual Blades? Because that will somehow undermine the integrity of my creation and perhaps even the integrity of the game? That seems silly.

It has been stated that the essence of the game is creating alts. I would argue that the true essence of the game is creating a character or characters that is completely unique. A character that you love playing and that is completely yours. This is what makes CoX special. And this is what the developers have worked tirelessly to achieve in my opinion. Giving folks such an amazing range of possibilities. Not just an elf like everyone else's elf.

I have no desire to change the primary or secondary powers on most of my toons. I really like most of my toons. But I don't like a few of them and would be thrilled to have a means to re-work them. To this end I think powerset respecs are not inconsistent with the philosophy of the development team. I do think the development team has concerns about how to implement such an option. It obviously can't be something that is easy to do. But this development team seems all about giving people more control, more choices and more freedom. I no longer have to roll a new toon to change gender or to have access to villain content. Why not extend that flexibility to primary and secondary power choices within a given AT?

Oh I forgot to say many thanks Penny for finding that article. It's nice to have something more current on the topic than 4/2010.

Yep. Cuz there's a world of difference between saying they are discussing it and saying this is something they'd like to add to the game.

Or what if they decide to remove the ability to pull enhancements off of a build during a respec. They always told us we were lucky they let us keep ten.

Yeah. I could "see" them allowing a "full respec" under those conditions.

You don't keep any enhancements. You don't keep any powers.

You just roll back to level 1 with all of your badges intact.

I don't see people being willing to lose the hundreds of millions of inf they spent on IO sets every time they think they found a new optimal build.

It tells me some devs think there might be some positive aspects to allowing it, but most probably think its not currently a good idea.

Pro-tip: if the devs say they are discussing it, the one thing you can be absolutely certain about is that they are not actually contemplating doing it yet. Because the moment they start seriously investigating the details of hypothetically doing it, whether they've made the final decision or not, they immediately shut up about it. My guess is that its more of a water cooler topic than a serious investigation yet. But that is a guess.

There's been a lot of turn over and shuffling in the last two years: War Witch is now the head honcho on overall design, Positron is more active in specific design, Castle is gone and Black Scorpion is now in charge of powers, critters, and lots of other stuff. Ideas like powerset respec would almost certainly get kicked around every time new people have input or decision making authority over the process. With every shuffling, the odds change as to whether they might consider doing it. I still don't think its likely at this point. Its also worth noting that of the three people that the article said was on the panel, only Nate Birkholz would really likely be in a position to know how seriously the devs were contemplating such a move, and none of them would be actually involved with the details of such a change. If Tim or Matt or Melissa were there and acknowledged it strongly, I might be inclined to think differently.


There's only one thing that has happened to change my opinion on how likely something like powerset respec is likely to occur under any circumstances in the last few years, and that is the Incarnate system. I used to think that if it were to happen at all, it would be something that would be earned like at leevl 15-20, and you would have to execute it before some maximum level, around 20ish. You wouldn't be allowed to level to 50 and then switch to a whole new 50. But I now believe that the other possibility is to make powerset respec (within an archetype) a potential future reward of the Incarnate system. Basically, if you get to the point where your character is a full Incarnate and has most of the Incarnate slots unlocked, a significant fraction of that character's net ability will be in the Incarnate powers. Changing primary or secondary might not be the same thing for such a character as changing powersets would be for a leveling character or even a level 50 character, because the net change in the character is lower.

You could even argue, to a limited degree, that when you become an Incarnate its really the Incarnate tree that becomes your "primary" and your original primary becomes more of a secondary set that might be more acceptable to respec. That analogy only goes so far, but it might go far enough to create the design cover to allow the change.

I'd still say that the odds are less than 10% of that sort of thing happening at the moment. But if I were Positron, I might be contemplating whether whatever plans I had for Omega might not include unlocking an alternate primary or secondary. Most players assume that Omega has to be one hellaciously powerful power. But there's lots of things Incarnates could be allowed to do that aren't just generating big floating numbers. Limited switching of powersets could conceivably be one of them. Its not *exactly* powerset respec, though: its a related concept.

Excellent and thoughtful post. Tying something like powerset respecs to the incarnate system is a very clever idea.

I second this. Thanks Arcanaville.