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unless more content is coming that expands them. by chatty people's estimates we have 2 more issues dealing with praetoria after i20 at the very least, i expect more fleshing out of later game factions.

I'm allowed to side with them in 1-20 content.

The problem with that is that I'm not at war with them. My character might be, but I'm not. So while my character could potentially not care about their motivations, etc, I do. And there's nothing compelling for me, the player -- the guy who has to actually read the text and press the buttons -- about Praetoria past level 20 when they become generic bad guys. They're boring at that point, even more boring than some villain groups who we've had since Issue 0 because they still just come across as cheesy Evil Goatee Earth.

Dante got it in one. In 1-20 Praetoria, you can work with the Loyalists. You're also given options and choices beyond "Rrwar! Must kill Praetorians!" Post level 20, that option is completely gone regardless of what you've done up until level 20.
You can speak to them, agree with them and work with them versus them being little more than AV farm fodder.

Just like Recluse and the Arachnos patrons?

Being able to have a conversation with a supervillain doesn't make them any less of a supervillain - Tyrant and the Praetorian Guard in the 1-20 content are the same as Tyrant and the Praetorian Guard in ther Portal Corp missions and the Incarnate content.

Or pumped up on Enriche

Correction: You are not.

You are allowed to side with Marchand's side through the Responsibility Arc, which opposes that which Cole is trying to do.

Marchand Ultimately sends you to Paragon City to prove that not all Praetorians are Evil, and to seek help to stop Cole.

You are allowed to side with your own side through the Power Arc, which opposes Cole as you want to take his place for your own glory and fame.

The natural course for the Power Loyalist is to go to the Rogue Aisles and build your strength so that you can come back and kick Cole's rear-end.

At no point in either of the Going Rogue Loyalist Storyline are you allowed to side with Cole for the sake of siding with Cole.

So, sorry, but Golden Girl's point stands. Yours and Jophiel's does not.

*Shrug* I disagree. I'm not really worried about convincing you, I'll just play until I get bored enough with the content to stop playing. Really, the best thing I could take from your statement is that they ARE the same and 1-20 content is even more shallow and dull than I thought. I'm certainly not going to take this to mean that Incarnate Praetorian content is actually fascinating stuff because I'm not fascinated.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

The thing is though, she has a point. GG I mean. Praetoria is portrayed as a simpler world in the 50 content, but it doesn't hold true that the 1 - 20 stuff doesn't also exist in the same world right? And if you could side with Tyrant in the 50 content? Well....how could you resolve it? People want the Praetoria stuff to end eventually, and how do you come to a good resolution of that storyline if you can have the players help invade the multiverse? Because someone there would have to lose. You could have competing TF's, and in one Tyrant invades the multiverse and succeeds, and in the other you put him down. But to make content happen after that you need to figure out which side wins, so the game is going to declare one side the victor.

So the game has made it easy on us, and I think that's why they decided that they want him invading the whole multiverse and not just Primal. Primal he can try and justify, but worlds that he's never even come into contact with become much harder. In face, it's bad for his "I must be here to protect Praetoria" thing, because he wouldn't be there.

You were never on the Praetors side really, I don't think. Responsibility is given in terms of protecting the people from the most harm. Power is given in terms of gaining the people's love and gaining your own power within the system. I would like to see a greater explanation of why the Resistance doesn't hook up with the Primal Earth, but I'm okay with that. The Syndicate.....well, they're gangs anyway. And gangs go away on Primal Earth by level 30 - the Tsoo, Warriors, Family. So they're not ready for prime time.

So what's different about them? In the original Portal Corp missions they said very little - all GR has done is flesh out what was already there.

On one hand, I would say that nothing ever really gets "resolved" in these games anyway. The Rikti keep invading, Recluse keeps hanging around and each AV you capture in the Jenkins missions gets a "But the Zig won't hold him for long!" Resolution isn't a strong point of MMORPGs anyway and competing TFs or whatever aren't any worse than "Insta-Repaired" Steel Canyon and the like.

On the other hand, if the developers boxed themselves in with a poorly plotted line where they can't resolve it leading to the game's detriment, that's not really my fault or my problem. Personally, I think the continued near exclusive focus on Praetoria for issue after issue is to the game's detriment but I'm not really out to convince GG or you of this but rather just expressing my opinions. Hey, maybe a developer will even read it and take note. One can hope...

Rather than go in circles with you I'll just agree with you and say that Praetoria now is every bit as boring and Evil Goatee Earth as it has ever been. Don't let it be said I'm not willing to meet you half way

Can we get off the whole "Good writing", "Bad Writing" thing? Because if you like the writing for what it is - a well produced, well made "we have to stop this invasion right now!" thing it's actually been quite good. It doesn't offer you the depth of choice, but depth of choice does not equal good writing either.

There's a difference between "I like the writing/don't like the writing" which indicates subjective opinions and "I think this writing is good/bad" which indicates that it's objectively bad.

I would like to see a greater attention to the people of Praetoria in the 50 content, but I don't think it's especially badly written. I can see not liking it. I can see not liking it because it doesn't give a depth of choice (although to be fair they never do assign motivation to stopping the invasion, other than "it's an invasion", so they let you come up with your own, much like the STF or LGTF). There's a lot about this stuff that I like in the 50 content. I think Tin Mage shows how far you've progressed as a character really well, when they show the Freedom Force lined up to back your play as you go into Praetoria. Apex and Tin Mage was the first time that I felt that each of the zones are connected because they told you what was going on else where while you were fighting. So, yeah, there's a lot for me to like in the writing of the level 50 stuff.

That I like it doesn't make the writing "good". That you don't like it doesn't make the writing "bad". And save for the occasional plot hole (and I've seen Oscar winning movies and award winning books with them folks - plot holes do not necessarily mean bad or even lazy writing when you're talking about a lore this complex), and probably the transition between Praetoria and Primal at 20 (which I understand why they had to lay off that a little since they didn't want to give motivation for either one - otherwise they would have had certain arcs lead to only to one and not the other) is a bit awkward - but overall the writing in this game has gotten better produced, and better artistically.

So if you don't like it, can you please just articulate why you don't like it, instead of implying that everyone who does just can't understand what bad writing is? Because I can articulate exactly the reasons I do like it. I can probably write a thirty page essay on it. I can also probably do that for the reasons I don't like it (gasp!!!! I can have conflicting opinions!). Neither one make it "bad" writing.

We did end the Rikti invasion. Just because you can play it more than once, and it keeps on going in the metagame for other people to be able to play it, doesn't mean your character *keeps* ending the Rikti war.

It means that "ending" the war is meaningless and unresolved. As evidenced by the piles of invading Rikti running around Miss Liberty several times a week.

So you want to ... what? Have the entire server only do the LGTF once? Because then the Rikti invasion is over?

What? There are concessions that we have to make for it being an MMO. That's one of them. Just because it's only happens once in game history, doesn't mean they can only make it able to run once in game history.

I don't like Praetoria because it's cliche. For Positron saying it wouldn't just be Evil Goatee Earth, it feels exactly like that. Evil Statesman and the Evil Freedom Phalanx. Zoinks! Back Alley Brawler here is against drugs but the one in Praetoria is actually making them! How topsy-turvey is that?? The setting is different but that only matters form 1-20. After that, they might as well come from Bizarro Paragon City where black is white and penguins live at the north pole.

Compounding this, Cole is the least interesting incarnation of Statesman. Statesman as Uber-Nazi or Statesman as Roman Emperor? That at least feelsl like you're mixing it up a little. Statesman as jerkier Statesman? Meh. No one likes Statesman anyway (speaking as a player, not a character) so who cares if it's Statesman as a bigger jerkbag? He's boring. And, while you can at least ignore the "He's really alternate Statesman" aspect while squashing Nazis and Romans if you like, Praetoria takes "He's EVIL Statesman!" and rubs your nose in it over and over like you're a puppy being blamed for someone else's mistake. "See?! Evil Positron?? That's because he's led by EVIL Statesman!!" Again: Statesman is boring. The only way I'm going to care about a Statesman-themed story is if there's something interesting on the fringes. Evil Freedom Phalanx isn't it. The Roman stuff was interesting. Reichsman's TF at least had some amusing AVs (and it's only one TF; not issue after issue after issue about ReichsWorld). I don't feel it for Praetoria. Early Praetoria has some interesting hooks and gimmicks; Post-20 Praetoria is dull.

That's my thoughts anyway since you asked for someone to express them. Your milage obviously may vary and I'm not out to convince you and if you love it then that's great but, at the same time, no one has convinced me that it's worth following.

Do you think we're arguing on this point? I said that the idea of "dueling TFs" or an open-ended conflict where you can side with Cole doesn't bother me because MMORPGs don't usually resolve stuff anyway so why should I be upset about two TFs with conflicting "endings"?

The problem is they wouldn't be open ended TF's because 1 TF would end with Cole winning and the other with him losing. Which storyline does the game follow *after* that. This isn't a STF/LRSF thing since those aren't dueling TF's. This would be unprecedented.

Easiest solution would be to not have the TF end in complete resolution. A TF to take over Atlas Park or something rather than a TF to destroy the whole world.

Will Atlas Park be conquered later? Nope. No more than Steel Canyon is in burning rubble after you complete Apex. But battle lines move back and forth and a "reclaiming" of Atlas can be handwaved in as easily as the continued Rikti invasions around Miss Liberty.

And aren't people already complaining about the lack of resolution of storylines in this game?

I'm not those people. I'm speaking for me. Hell, make the end of the Cole line be that he loses if it's that worrying to you. It's not as though "victory" as a villain Red Side ever results in you moving your futon and hotpot into the Freedom Corps building or making Recluse your chauffeur. Have Cole lose, you get to grab a choice prize from the rubble of his failure and you're good.

Edit: Even this is essentially trying to help the developers out of a situation they made for themselves. I don't know if the answer is to extend the 1-20 content but the problem remains that the Incarnate Praetorian content is boring and uninspiring.

The Loyalist choice at the end of the Power arc is a literal (in the literal meaning of literal) "Yes, My Emperor" response, as you can read about in the Wiki.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you there. I was introduced to the Praetors by existing contacts, I ran their arcs, I even made a few moral choices that favoured them. I didn’t have to hand over De Vore or Belladona to Mother or Praetor Sinclair but I did and with a smile on my face as any loyal citizen should. That time I shopped Praetor Berry to the Emperor, Cole even came to see me and tell me what a loyal subject I was. What a guy! Sure feels like siding with Cole and the Praetors to me.

Regardless, I think the major source of disconnect between 1-20 Praetoria and Incarnate Praetoria is due to the nature of the beast. 1-20 is all story arcs, places that allow for exposition, characterization and getting more in depth with the story. The Incarnate content is all TFs and Trials, hardly the best medium for storytelling. So if I were to blame anything for the distinct difference between the two, I would point the finger at the Maria Jenkins arc and the distinct lack of one on the villain side.

I ran the new MJ arc the other night and found it distinctly unimpressive. Sure, it’s new and shiny and has had another lick of paint but it still felt like an old arc that’s just been spruced up. What if some of that new mission tech had been put into it? What if I could have spoken to the Praetors first before diving straight into an attack? Hey, what if it was coded so that it picked up on your badges and could tell your character was an exiled Praetorian now fighting for Primal Earth? Now that would have made for some fun interaction! But instead, they do what every other AV I’ve ever fought in this game does: throw off a few snappy lines and then attempt to remove my head in the fastest way possible before becoming just another sack of HP to whittle down. Just like how they were in Issue 2.

And then of course, there’s the complete absence of anything villainside before the Apex TF. What about those Loyalists who went to become villains? When did they make their sudden decision to fight Cole? As the leaving text says, there’s the option to side with him when he invades. Except there isn’t. And there’s no explanation given for why. Sure, we can make assumptions and suppositions but nothing that reintroduces the Praetorian threat for villains. If the Devs are going to expand on Praetoria in the future, this is one area that would make the transition so much better.

Anyway, I’m not trying to convince anyone here so feel free to disagree with me if you wish. If you like it, fine, I’m glad for you. Enjoy. I feel short changed. I play CoX to be part of the story and this is one area where I feel the story has left me cold. For a five and a half year veteran, that’s a big disappointment especially as it’s about their flagship Incarnate content.