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The thing is it's a re-valuation. Yes it takes 20 threads instead of 4 shards for a common component but threads drop a LOT more frequently than shards.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I'm fine with the drop rates for shards. the time it takes for me to acquire enough shards to create a common or uncommon alpha enhancement is fine with me. Quintupling the number of shards for the next tier is a bit excessive. Quintupling that for the next slot just shows that the end game is not for casual players.
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If I do a kill most ITF I get 1 common component and on average 3-7 shards so say 2-3 common components total. The Lamda Trial gives (going by memory): a few threads from drops (say 2-4), 3 Astral Merits (equal to 12 threads) a common component (worst case) and an Empyrean Merit (equal to 20 threads). So all in all it works out to about... 2.75 common components.
Yes if you try to progress in the new slots using the old content the difficult is quintupled but if you use the new content the effort required should be about the same per slot.
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Granted. But that isn't the case when we're talking about an end-game tied to the Incarnate system in Co*. You are not being given the opportunity to gain 4 or more level shifts, bonuses which sidestep ED, additional bonus effects for your powers and extra powers above and beyond what a standard level 50 character could obtain just so you could do a regular level 50 TF. Capping the Incarnate system with something so simple and easy that you don't use a single Incarnate ability, boost or level shift to complete it would be ludicrous. Something only a bad designer or complete idiot would do.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
No, you're assuming they think the same as you. Someone can have completely different opinions, plans and intentions without being an idiot.
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My "assumption" is based on knowledge of what's being tested now, observation of new things added previously and about to be added and deduction derived from an understanding of the basic idea of progression. Between the two of us, my "assumption" has more facts and reality behind it than anything you can even begin to postulate, and it's a far more logical conclusion than your apparent belief that the Incarnate system is completely separate and independent from the end-game. I know what we got in I19, I know what's coming in I20, I can logically determine what will be coming in I21 and following that path with even the slightest bit of foresight leads me to my very clearly stated conclusion, that the entire Incarnate system is a gate to the end-game content, not a bonus feature being released parallel with the end-game.
Until you actually know as much as or more than I do, you aren't in a position to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, am making wild assumptions or have no foundation for my conclusions. That's just hypocritical bull dung. Shovel it on someone else.
It's not a matter of the time or work in doing the slots, it's if the toon feels right to have it with the slot, and only about 3 have felt right with it. I've got one toon to tier 3 alpha only, and He was the only one that felt right having it. Going to have one toon at tier 4 *shrug* I don't know, I'm more worried about getting my toons the judgment and destiny slots... Call me weird, I've also been thinkin about dropin most my 50s the incarnate system has make me realize that they dont mean jack to me.... >.> Ya weird and stupid, but it keeps slots on my freedum server for new power sets.
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It's not at all weird. The Incarnate system is intended to require significant time to get high in it. As such the devs are pretty much assuming that people will choose to focus on a small number of characters.
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Originally Posted by Broken Voltage
Call me weird, I've also been thinkin about dropin most my 50s the incarnate system has make me realize that they dont mean jack to me.... >.> Ya weird and stupid, but it keeps slots on my freedum server for new power sets.
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Playing casually, all my characters have amassed more than enough shards/notices to get Very Rare alphas. I skip WTFs that I don't like (so far, mainly Sister P and Numina) and play only the ones I enjoy. My scrapper has 220 shards after getting her Cardiac Core Paragon.
So far, the only remotely annoying thing about the incarnate content are the 'shard TFs' that have been popping up. People on these TFs tend to talk about nothing but how many shards they got so far, how many more they need, how the droprate needs to be increased, etc etc. which is annoying since I team for the social aspect of the game.
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So did I. Good times.|
Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
It took me nearly a year to get my first 50. Is that "reasonable?" I don't know, but I had fun getting there. As is often said around here, it's about the journey, not the destination. I knew it would take a lot of playtime to get a character to 50, but as long I was having fun, I didn't worry about it.
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Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
I don't believe it was ever the intent of the developers for players to "blast" their way to 50.
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I think players "blasting" to 50 that fast is intentional.
I 'd like to know how that was done . My scrapper has got 8 shards . I play about 4 nights a week for about 3 hours . The most shards I have got was in a ship raid when I got the last 3 to fill the Alpha Slot. I'm begining to believe that we are not to outfit more than one Incarnate as the there is not that much to do with them.
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Nails it! And i know at least four other players on my global who feel the same way-folks I had, until very recently, considered lifers.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
Yes, right with you, Graystar. My stable has been reduced to 2-3 that I may play for incarnate stuff, and the progress of my sub-50s has ground to a halt.
But it is worse than that for me... In fact, I am playing less and less all the time primarily because what is coming doesn't feel particularly exciting and while I know my character is stronger I don't feel like the character is any more super. I know it has been debated to death, so I won't go down that path... but I can easily see myself letting my sub lapse, and that never even occurred to me prior to incarnate introduction (which I was psyched about). Right or wrong, it feels like the game itself is changing. And my perception is that the change is into something I do not want to play...  |
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*OR*, they're thinking in a different direction that you haven't even imagined. Or do you claim to know everything?|
Originally Posted by Luminara
Capping the Incarnate system with something so simple and easy that you don't use a single Incarnate ability, boost or level shift to complete it would be ludicrous. Something only a bad designer or complete idiot would do.
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| Between the two of us, my "assumption" has more facts and reality behind it than anything you can even begin to postulate, |
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| Until you actually know as much as or more than I do, you aren't in a position to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about, am making wild assumptions or have no foundation for my conclusions. |
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The Mentor Project
I can understand why people wanted "end-game" I just abhor the implementation of it. It takes no account of how this game has encouraged altitus and the "what do you need" response to teaming. (Of my 19 or 20 50s I play 15 on a regular basis; which ever helped the team most.) It almost totally ignores soloists/small teams.
The intro arc was fine the first time; got old on my 15th 50. It's another "ugh" like costume slots, capes, auras, vanguard and Cim arcs. I don't enjoy running the WTF on all my 50s for Notices and I see the Raids the same way.
As for the new Raids. If I want to play for 90 minutes I won't spend 45 minutes standing around waiting to form. I don't relish having a team full of incompetent PuG members. Nor a failure due to half the team speeding and half wanting XP. Nor do I have any interest in acquiring another bunch of in-game currency.
The only character which I am LIKELY - not certain - to do the Incarnate stuff on is my main badger. Only for the badges. I am still undecided if I will even bother to do that. But if I do the team will get zero choice; you want me then its my main. You don't like my main, tough luck because I will not do this grind for all my 50s.
For me the game was always about altitus and it's such a shame that there couldn't have been some way of implimenting the end game content which allowed people to still have a large amount of alts which they could use without grinding.
So yes, now it's killed my 50s in the sense everyone wants level shifted etc and frankly I'm not faffing with that on all of them. This is the char you're getting, take it or leave it.
SAVE CoX info:
Titan Network efforts
Saving CoX events/FB info
And I have 6 global friends who I have not seen since probably i14-i15 come back because of all the incarnate stuff...
The thing about Incarnates is if you don't like it you don't have to do it.. ever!
So tired of people acting like they are victims.
There is nothing keeping anyone from their 100+ alts. ANYONE who has been in either i19 or i20 beta knew in advance that incarnate stuff is a time sink. It is not supposed to be something that can be done in a day... it's something for people to do and continue to do on their 50s. What is the point of an end game if it is soo easily achievable that it has been burned through in a week or two? I mean.. hello that has been the argument against increasing the level cap since day one.. that people would just burn through it and then whine they wanted more. Well here is your end game... get over it! You asked for something hard and time consuming... TADA ... your wish has been granted 
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Originally Posted by Kohei
Nails it! And i know at least four other players on my global who feel the same way-folks I had, until very recently, considered lifers.
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The end-game will either require Incarnate abilities, or it won't. There is no third option. It can't require players to be familiar with the Incarnate system, or to have run past a contact related to the Incarnate system, or to have teamed with someone with Incarnate abilities, or anything else. It is binary, it either requires Incarnates to complete, or it has nothing to do with Incarnates beyond the story. Why you believe there's some mystical third possibility, I can't understand, because there isn't. I don't need a fax of Positron's notes to know that, nor should you. It is A or B, not A, B or C, not A+B or A/B or A squared minus the root of B. If you choose to believe that the developers are stupid enough to implement an end-game with no direct, incontrovertible ties to the end-game system they're building, your call.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
*OR*, they're thinking in a different direction that you haven't even imagined.
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| Or do you claim to know everything? |
I have 7 level 50s, and will probably be picking up 2-3 more in the next month or two. I run the Ramiel arc for all of them simply to reap the shard rewards when I play them, but only one of them thus far has a tier 3 or 4 Alpha slot, and only two others have ANYthing slotted. And I still play... whatever darn toon strikes my fancy at the time, out of a selection of approximately 50 alts. They're all different, in some way or another - I rarely become bored with ANY of them. All of the boring toons, I've already deleted... a list MUCH longer that the toons I've kept. 
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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You're conflating non-linear progress with reward options. If I earn 10000 influence and I spend it at in-game stores, there are lots of potential things I could buy, in lots of combinations. But that is not non-linear progress, because the progress part was the part where I earned the 10000 inf, not the part where I spent it. We progress in levels by earning XP, not by picking powers. Its the difference between the one option we have to unlock capes, and the multitude of capes we can choose to use.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
When it comes to incarnate slot acquisition, that's less non-linear than you had previously predicted. Right now, it seems that after Alpha we have two linear tracks. And when it comes to actual incarnate abilities, that's no more non-linear than putting things into enhancement slots is now. We just happen to be able to put more dramatic things into them.
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The progressional parts of Alpha itself are the components we earn to craft Alpha abilities. Its not the actual abilities themselves: those are rewards for progress. Because the shard system is blurring the distinction, its easy to overlook the fact that different activities generate different progress even in the Alpha slot: different task forces earn different components which are useful in different Alpha trees. The Notice of the Well is linear: at the moment there is only one way to earn it, and there's only one kind of it. But the components (many of them) are tied to activities, and that means different sets of activity generate different progress in different Alpha trees. In I20, this will extend to a limited degree to the other slots: different activities generate different progress in different slots. This is not something that exists with the current progressional system, because all activities that generate progress generate the same progress towards the same goal of earning the next level. Because there is only one flavor of XP, there can be by definition only one kind of progress in the standard game.
And that's what generates the need for differing currencies. The need for differing progress from differing activities. And that is completely different from any set of options we currently have in the standard game or the enhancement system. We can choose different powers or different enhancements, but all roads lead to the same choices. And its not the number of choices that makes progress non-linear, but rather the number of different ways to progress itself.
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Just to be clear, I'm not actually objecting to the implementation at this point. I understand the need for currencies, I just get sad when I see so many of them, and I don't feel the CoX currencies were planned very well overall. Side effect of how they've organically grown as the game has been developed, I suppose.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And that's what generates the need for differing currencies. The need for differing progress from differing activities. And that is completely different from any set of options we currently have in the standard game or the enhancement system. We can choose different powers or different enhancements, but all roads lead to the same choices. And its not the number of choices that makes progress non-linear, but rather the number of different ways to progress itself.
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As to eventual Incarnate rewards, I've resigned myself to the fact that if I keep playing, some things are going to be out of my reach until such a time as I feel I can afford the mandatory downtime that follows high intensity team events. Other things are simply going to be out of my reach.
I was just voicing another perspective on classification, that's all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Actually, I never asked for something hard and time consuming.|
Originally Posted by Fixxer
Well here is your end game... get over it! You asked for something hard and time consuming... TADA ... your wish has been granted
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Also, the question was never answered: Time consuming for who?
What I call time consuming for the people that blow through content in a week, for me, is glacial progression that isn't worth the effort for those who don't.
We seem to have two sides to this issue and one of them won't be happy.
Unfortunately, it seems to be the side that this game was marketed for in the beginning.
So, tell me who this is supposed to be "time consuming" for?
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
I always thought this game was about being a super hero and now with the incarnate slots.. I feel even more super. So to me this is what has always been presented to me as a super hero mmo. To me the Incarnate stuff is sooo much more an endgame that what has previously been existent in CoH.
And my argument "For" the time consuming end game...people have always said "NO NO NO" to increasing the level cap because they wanted an end game that simply could not be blown through in a week or two.
I think the main problem I see from people complaining is that the incarnate "stuff" will take awhile which tells me a lot of the noise is people who want everything NOW. I like playing my toons.. all of them and that is probably why I don't feel this is a grind. If it takes me months to slot my 50s then so be it... that is months I played them.. had fun.. and got my monies worth out of my subs.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Actually, I never asked for something hard and time consuming.
Also, the question was never answered: Time consuming for who? What I call time consuming for the people that blow through content in a week, for me, is glacial progression that isn't worth the effort for those who don't. We seem to have two sides to this issue and one of them won't be happy. Unfortunately, it seems to be the side that this game was marketed for in the beginning. So, tell me who this is supposed to be "time consuming" for? |
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Alternatively, maybe at least some players that thought this game was explicitly designed for and targeted at their specific personal preferences were wrong. Maybe, as I've been saying for years now, this game was always and obviously designed to be something for everyone, not everything for someone.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
We seem to have two sides to this issue and one of them won't be happy.
Unfortunately, it seems to be the side that this game was marketed for in the beginning. |
I'm more or less fine with the end game as a whole, and I don't particularly feel like I only like the game by coincidence: that I'm not a part of its target audience. I think I'm a small part of its larger market. I also think none of the people who are currently unhappy with the end game are any larger, more central, or more important part of that market than I am.
The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all.
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That's not the point though.|
Originally Posted by Fixxer
I always thought this game was about being a super hero and now with the incarnate slots.. I feel even more super. So to me this is what has always been presented to me as a super hero mmo. To me the Incarnate stuff is sooo much more an endgame that what has previously been existent in CoH.
And my argument "For" the time consuming end game...people have always said "NO NO NO" to increasing the level cap because they wanted an end game that simply could not be blown through in a week or two. I think the main problem I see from people complaining is that the incarnate "stuff" will take awhile which tells me a lot of the noise is people who want everything NOW. |
At least not mine, and I think not the OP's either.
My point is NOT that it is time consuming, but that it is such a big boost that it is quite a must have.
If it took half a year, and the reward was a shiny badge and a 5% bonus to an enhancement category of your choice, I think noone here would be worried. (And a lot of people would still happily work to get it! Myself included!)
But it's not. It is effectively one more level with the Level Shift, plus the bonus from the Alpha slot, plus more rewards because you can now defeat stuff as if you were 51 and get rewards as if you were 50.
Thus everyone that doesn't want to roleplay being not that super, and get less rewards all the time, will want to have it on their character.
And if the future brings more like this, the must-have-ity of it will even increase.
So again this is your perception of keeping up with the Jones'.
If I want levels, shineys, etc... I have to earn them. I mean hello I would love all my toons to be 50 in less than a week, with at least 500 easily earned badges, and purple drops galore so I can twink my build out. But you know what... I have to grind for the badges, the influence, and sometimes it feels the xp.
Level "51" should not be easy to earn. It should be harder than any other level. It should take longer than 49-50.
And your perception that it is a must have on most/all of your toons is your perception. Many people still use SOs on their toons and are quite happy with those toons. Now me... I like sets set sets, but that is a criteria for completion I have set for myself on my toons...it is not required to go whoop booty.
The ONLY things requiring an Alpha slot are the two.. Incarnate TFs (Apex and Tin Mage).. and as I said before prerequisites for certain content in this game have a precedent.
Stop thinking you HAVE to get the new stuff NOW... and if you CHOOSE to try and get it on all your 50's that is a self-imposed burden you are placing on yourself. no one is forcing the incarnate content on you.... plain and simple.
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Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
That's not the point though.
At least not mine, and I think not the OP's either. My point is NOT that it is time consuming, but that it is such a big boost that it is quite a must have. If it took half a year, and the reward was a shiny badge and a 5% bonus to an enhancement category of your choice, I think noone here would be worried. (And a lot of people would still happily work to get it! Myself included!) But it's not. It is effectively one more level with the Level Shift, plus the bonus from the Alpha slot, plus more rewards because you can now defeat stuff as if you were 51 and get rewards as if you were 50. Thus everyone that doesn't want to roleplay being not that super, and get less rewards all the time, will want to have it on their character. And if the future brings more like this, the must-have-ity of it will even increase. |
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I never said that this game was designed for my specific personal preferences. However, and I think you will agree, this game was originally designed towards the casual gamer. Not the elite power gamer.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Alternatively, maybe at least some players that thought this game was explicitly designed for and targeted at their specific personal preferences were wrong. Maybe, as I've been saying for years now, this game was always and obviously designed to be something for everyone, not everything for someone.
I'm more or less fine with the end game as a whole, and I don't particularly feel like I only like the game by coincidence: that I'm not a part of its target audience. I think I'm a small part of its larger market. I also think none of the people who are currently unhappy with the end game are any larger, more central, or more important part of that market than I am. The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all. |
I do not see the "end game" being anything near casual friendly.
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Originally Posted by Fixxer
Stop thinking you HAVE to get the new stuff NOW...
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I do see people requesting that the casual player not be left out in the cold though.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Actually, that doesn't mean much at all. 49-50 is now a half-hour and I'm pretty sure it took way longer than that to make my Rare Alpha. I have not noticed anyone talking about it, so I will mention that this new weekly task force has completely broken the upper tier leveling system.|
Originally Posted by Fixxer
Level "51" should not be easy to earn. It should be harder than any other level. It should take longer than 49-50.
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I had a lvl 41 character at the start of the weekly task force. After running 3 TFs (each about an hour), I am now lvl 50. 41-50 with just 3 hours play. Just like some of the XPloits in the AE or the Winterlord fiasco, I do not think that super-charging the path through the 40s is the right move.
I have no problem with a reasonable XP bonus, but what we are getting is not reasonable. Couple this with the fact that said lower-level toon is probably running the TF with one or more super-charged Alpha characters and you basically have company sanctioned power-leveling.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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-g=C800:5
never said that this game was designed for my specific personal preferences. However, and I think you will agree, this game was originally designed towards the casual gamer. Not the elite power gamer.
I do not see the "end game" being anything near casual friendly.
Twisted Toon
This, What is the use of having a end game that few can participate in?
PLing to me is standing at the door during a repeated mish over and over. If you join my ITF and you think you are going to stand at the door you are sorely mistaken
And the WSF only gives the double end bonus once per toon (if that is your reference). That is the only difference between a WSF and any other TF. I know a lot of people who ran ITF after ITF to get from 35+ to 50 quicker. But those people also.. actively fight/kill/die etc....
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Originally Posted by Sir_Zane
Actually, that doesn't mean much at all. 49-50 is now a half-hour and I'm pretty sure it took way longer than that to make my Rare Alpha. I have not noticed anyone talking about it, so I will mention that this new weekly task force has completely broken the upper tier leveling system.
I had a lvl 41 character at the start of the weekly task force. After running 3 TFs (each about an hour), I am now lvl 50. 41-50 with just 3 hours play. Just like some of the XPloits in the AE or the Winterlord fiasco, I do not think that super-charging the path through the 40s is the right move. I have no problem with a reasonable XP bonus, but what we are getting is not reasonable. Couple this with the fact that said lower-level toon is probably running the TF with one or more super-charged Alpha characters and you basically have company sanctioned power-leveling. |
Well you picked it......
There is a difference between long and windy, and too long to be worth the effort. You don't seem to understand that. Or, since you are happy with raids, you choose to not see the difference.
Not everyone likes to play like you. Not everyone likes to play like me. I know this. However, there shouldn't be a system that effectively bars a group from end game content do to massively excessive grinding.
I'm fine with the drop rates for shards. the time it takes for me to acquire enough shards to create a common or uncommon alpha enhancement is fine with me. Quintupling the number of shards for the next tier is a bit excessive. Quintupling that for the next slot just shows that the end game is not for casual players.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"