Right now you can get everything you need for Tier 4 alpha from old non-incarnate content (except I guess the entry missions, but those are easily soloable on most characters and are hardly new except story wise). You need 3 NotW so 3 weekly TF's and you can pick and choose when so your could in theory get all 3 from TFs that basically launched with the game (Numina's, Posi's, etc.)
So my question is (not trying to be snarky here or whatever), is there something coming in I20 that only unlocks from new content that I'm out of the loop about? Because as it stands now you can get all your Alpha slot fun without ever running "New Incarnate content" such as Tin Mage and Apex. It will be a massive time sink and I wouldn't care to try, but if you hate the new content that much, the "other way" is there.
Also, I can understand not liking the new TF's. I don't really enjoy my new found Incarnate awesomeness fighting 54 Praetorian Clockwork and dodging hundreds of unresist/ingnore defense instadeath blue patches. Atleast it is not another stand in one place and spam attacks at AV until it dies kinda thing.
I feel like one major problem with how many people have reacted to the Incarnate system is assuming that their 50's will need to get all of the Very Rare Slots. This to me is like assuming that all of your 50's will need to be outfitted with all of the PVP and Purple IO's. If your starting point is to assume that you will get the ultimate level of power for all of your characters in an MMO you are probably going to be disappointed with the amount of work it is going to take. For me, that's not even an option: I have 15 level 50's and 2 more on the way. 8 of these 50's are "favorites" that I play a lot of and expect to play through all of the Incarnate content.
I have no plans whatsoever to get very rare slots on any of my 50's. Based on my playstyle, I imagine that 2 or 3 of them will eventually get the very rare Alpha in maybe 3 or 4 months as a result of being played more than my others, but most of my 50's will probably never move beyond the 3rd tier on any of their Incarnate slots. For me this makes sense: all of of my 15 level 50's have IO's but only 3 have any serious number of purples and/or PVP enhancements. Most of the time I'm perfectly happy with "second best" IO's and powers. I think if players look at the top tier incarnate slots as aspirational rather than "MUST HAVE NAO" they'll probably be perfectly happy.
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Yup, and I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I'd say one of the strengths of this game has always been that the aforementioned lag hasn't ever mattered. That it might now suddenly matter is part of the concern.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Yes, the casual players will lag behind the hardcore players in how fast they advance their Incarnates. But casual players have ALWAYS lagged behind the hardcore players in accomplishing anything.
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Look. I have friends who (try to) play the end game of the 800 lbs. gorilla over there. I've routinely been left shaking my head at the complicated song and dance they have to run through to get anything accomplished. It's a logistical nightmare. Plus, it seems they only ever have time to play their primary character, and it has to be built just so. This is the level of commitment and focus that the content in question apparently demands. Many times I have counted myself lucky that my game of choice isn't like that, and I know I'm not alone there.
So when something like the Incarnate system is announced, is it any wonder some people twitch and get jumpy?
All that said, I've seen encouraging signs that the developers are trying to introduce this end game system without significantly compromising the accommodation of casual play City has always been known for. However, I fully understand why some folks remain trepidacious about it, and it irks me to see their worries misconstrued or disdainfully dismissed.
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You CAN blast through it, but you're not really supposed to. They can't make it more difficult for the people that want to PL their way up without making it REALLY difficult for the people that want to level at their own pace. |
Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
But why do they make the way to 50 something that you can blast through.
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And how are those extra levels that are not treated as such help speed-running TFs? When you pack tons of Incarnate stuff and Level Shift(s) but still read as 'level 50', imagine how fast you can blast through them THEN! 
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They really can't make existing content any harder to discourage speed runs because they are open to anyone level 45 and up. A level 45 with SOs (which the existing TFs are still scaled to) is going to be obliterated in content balanced for Incarnates, even if they are SKed up to level 49.
The end result is going to be that, yes, current high level TFs are going to be stupidly easy for a team full of Incarnates, but there's nothing they can do about that without screwing the people who are NOT Incarnates who want to run it, unless they set it up so you don't get all your level shifts all the time.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Time consuming for who?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If it were not time consuming, there are a whole lot of people who would blow through it in a few months and start up the whole "There's nothing to do at 50!" chant again.
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We have people here who play through new content in a week.
We also have people who don't have that much time to spend playing the game.
If you make the content time consuming for the players who blow through stuff "too fast", then you are, effectively, barring those who don't have the time to play from ever reaching that goal in a "reasonable" amount of time.
I have no problems with time gating content. That is making it so that certain things can't be done more than X times in Y Minutes/Hours/Days. I do take issue with creating content that caters to the "hardcore speed players". Especially, those who whine about there being no new content after they just sped through everything. I have no sympathy for them. Just as they have no sympathy for me and my play style.
For the record, I hate raids. I don't care for TFs, but I do them on occasion. I hate raids with a passion.
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It might work if you were limited to emailing it to yourself, so you can claim the shards on any of your alts, but you can't off-market sell it to anyone else.
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Originally Posted by Nyx
Agreed, but the only concern the Devs might have is that people scream for end content, and this suggestion although viable in some ways, might counter that goal.
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Hmm. Yes, as I understand it, unlocking the new slots will be completely different than unlocking the alpha slot. It uses new XP and new salvage. XP per slot type is gated to one or the other Trial, so if you want to advance slot X which is tied to the BAF, you will have to run the BAF and only the BAF over and over for each of your characters to get the necessary XP to unlock and then to get the necessary salvage to build.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
So my question is (not trying to be snarky here or whatever), is there something coming in I20 that only unlocks from new content that I'm out of the loop about? Because as it stands now you can get all your Alpha slot fun without ever running "New Incarnate content" such as Tin Mage and Apex.
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They are making the bet that these Trials will be "fun" enough to withstand such overexposure in a such short time. I'm not so sure about that. Since this is really the first exposure to what the devs are thinking of for Incarnate content, it is pretty important that it makes a good first impression.
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It's a lot closer than some of the other assumptions that have been made in this thread.|
Originally Posted by DanZero
This all boils down to:
Before, you could access everything in the game relatively easily, whether solo or in groups. Even Task Force rewards had an alternate path to obtain. In fact, with all the varied currencies introduced over the last 5 years, there are many many ways to obtain everything in the game except... Incarnate stuff. It's taken me a while to see what the gripe is over this, but let me see if I get it now. People who are upset feel that there is no reasoable way to obtain incarnate stuff, which they want, except by doing incarnate stuff. i.e., you can't buy shards with any other game currency. Also, you can't even play incarnate trials without said incarnate stuff, thereby denying solo players and casual players from seeing the best of the new content. So the gist is, this incarnate stuff is sort of a seperate game, which is kinda new because even AE stuff gave regular people rewards options. Is this the issue? |
Here's what I myself want:
1. To be able to acquire these goodies at a pace I'm comfortable with on at least a few characters. I don't care if progress is glacial, as long as:
2. When I get these goodies, there'll still be plenty of teams tackling the content these goodies are required for. I do not want to ever be put into a position where I have to herd dozens of cats in order to experience a single event. Especially if failure to complete the event is a possibility (Oi, I get a headache just thinking about it).
3. An experience that isn't toxic. I'm very leery of any system that could empower buttheads to decide who and who does not get to participate based on whatever inane criteria they've decided is important.
I do believe the developers are trying to accommodate these issues. Whether or not they'll be successful at that remains to be seen. I think it's a dark and winding road they've decided to travel... but... if they can pull it off and successfully combine this sort of end game with the longstanding City design philosophy, well...
It'll be a kick in the junk of a certain 800 lbs. gorilla, and that'll be something to cheer indeed.
Edited to add: And, for the record, I haven't had any issues with the Alpha Slot requirements.
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Exactly. Something will have to be done. The devs cannot create enough new hard content to keep the Incarnates interested. And if left unchecked, the old content will be unfun. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The end result is going to be that, yes, current high level TFs are going to be stupidly easy for a team full of Incarnates, but there's nothing they can do about that without screwing the people who are NOT Incarnates who want to run it, unless they set it up so you don't get all your level shifts all the time.
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So, either the devs have to curb Incarnate abilities in non-incarnate content or have an Incarnate Scalar applied to all old content. Option 1 lets everyone play like they always have, it just runs the risk of marginalizing the point of getting Incarnate powers. Option 2 runs its own risks in segregating the player base.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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There is one other set of things that is "bind on acquire" that is relevant to the Incarnate system: XP, Powers, and Slots.|
Originally Posted by Sir_Zane
The change that people are expressing as a "fundamental shift" is that the devs have finally applied the "bind on acquire" concept that they have been playing around with since Vanguard Merits to main character advancement. All previous "end game" items were "bind on equip".
This difference presents a (imho) large difference in how I now make decisions in the game in consuming its content. With IOs and Hami-Os, I can play any alt I want and send currency/items to another alt that may need it or can use it if that alt cannot. Also, I can choose to play any game content and I would still be making some progress on my alt and potentially any of my other alts in their end games. The Incarnate Process is completely opposite. Each character only gets to consume what they themselves have played. There can be no sharing between alts. This is why people are calling it "alt unfriendly". I imagine that simply allowing players to email incarnate salvage to each other would go a long way to loosening things up. |
The Incarnate system is not just an end game system in the sense that it was something the devs gave us to do. In that sense the badge system is a form of end game system. Its specifically an end game progressional system: its a system intended to extend character progress beyond achieving level 50. Rolling alts and doing end game task forces and trials are end game activity, but they are not progressional systems. The invention system comes close, but its more of a gear system than it is a progressional system because while it offers a way to increase the power of the player, it doesn't have a true progressional earning system attached to it. The standard progressional system is: you earn XP, XP unlocks levels, levels grant power choices and enhancement slots on a schedule. That is the progressional system of the game from level 1 to level 50. Its the only one we had prior to the Incarnate system. And all of its elements are non-tradeable. You cannot earn XP and grant it to other alts. You cannot earn powers and give them to other alts.
The Incarnate system is different in a number of ways, one of which is that it is non-linear. There are path choices and branching choices through the system that are created by using a middle layer between what players earn and what they gain from the system in terms of Incarnate XP or Incarnate Power components. But since these things are, in effect, middleware between XP and Powers, they can't be tradeable either.
Given that its intended specifically to be an extension of the standard progress system of the game, these things cannot be tradeable. Inventions could be, because it had no aspirations to be a progressional system. It was an extension of the enhancement system where things can be bought or sold to enhance the performance of the character. But we don't typically associate buying an SO with "progress" in the same sense we associate earning a bar of XP with "progress." The Incarnate power system incorporates the same concept of progress, but in a much more complex way. That complexity does not eliminate the need for character progress to be non-tradeable.
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Actually, all of those level gates are to my knowledge still there. Zones are still level locked, and task forces still have minimum level gates.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
All of that has been gone for a couple of issues with the exception of the hive/abyss maybe ?
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| The question is not if we had gated content but if the game is better without it. |
If you want to argue that MMOs in general, or this one in particular, would be a better game without any content gates objectively, that's a separate issue again, and on that I have a separate opinion.
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I don't believe it was ever the intent of the developers for players to "blast" their way to 50. The fact that many players have figured out how to do so may explain why the developers seem to be trying to make incarnate progression deliberately time consuming.|
Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
But why do they make the way to 50 something that you can blast through
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
If you make the content time consuming for the players who blow through stuff "too fast", then you are, effectively, barring those who don't have the time to play from ever reaching that goal in a "reasonable" amount of time.
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Full Incarnate progression will take a lot of play time. If I enjoy it, I'll get there eventually. If I don't, then I'll do something else. I just don't see any reason to be in a hurry when it comes to rewards and goals in this game. The quicker I accomplish everything, the quicker I'll run out of stuff to do and get bored.
I love that after 2 years of playing, there are still plenty of things I have yet to accomplish. That's what keeps me interested.
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The argument can be made that normal power acquisition is somewhat nonlinear. From level 6 onward, I get to choose when I start taking power pools, in what order. Within my primary and secondary selections, I get to take many powers in arbitrary orders, even skip large groups of them.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The Incarnate system is different in a number of ways, one of which is that it is non-linear. There are path choices and branching choices through the system that are created by using a middle layer between what players earn and what they gain from the system in terms of Incarnate XP or Incarnate Power components. But since these things are, in effect, middleware between XP and Powers, they can't be tradeable either.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, all of those level gates are to my knowledge still there. Zones are still level locked, and task forces still have minimum level gates.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I agree. Personally I have 3 characters I'm working on incarnate stuff for and I doubt I'll even get very rare in all 5 slots for all of them. I've gotten their Alpha Slot V.R. but honestly the difference between rare and very rare isn't that huge.|
Originally Posted by ComradeCommunism
I feel like one major problem with how many people have reacted to the Incarnate system is assuming that their 50's will need to get all of the Very Rare Slots. This to me is like assuming that all of your 50's will need to be outfitted with all of the PVP and Purple IO's. If your starting point is to assume that you will get the ultimate level of power for all of your characters in an MMO you are probably going to be disappointed with the amount of work it is going to take. For me, that's not even an option: I have 15 level 50's and 2 more on the way. 8 of these 50's are "favorites" that I play a lot of and expect to play through all of the Incarnate content.
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My initial goal when I20 comes out will be to get a Rare in each slot for each of them. However I'm not as concerned about getting the very rare. Oh, I'll work towards it but since going from rare to very rare requires about 4 times the effort required to go from nothing to rare (baring a lucky very rare component drop) and doesn't really provide that much advantage it's a long term goal that I'm not to concerned about.
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Important distinction: when you gain level 20, there is only real way to measure progress from 19 to 20, or alternatively many different completely fungible ones: you earn linear XP to get from 19 to 20. When you gain level 20, you get exactly the same reward I do: you get to pick from a set of powers that is available within your powersets. Although you can pick different things, there is no way for you to change the way to get to level 20 in a way that would give you a different set of options. So the reward is essentially singular.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
The argument can be made that normal power acquisition is somewhat nonlinear. From level 6 onward, I get to choose when I start taking power pools, in what order. Within my primary and secondary selections, I get to take many powers in arbitrary orders, even skip large groups of them.
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In the Incarnate system, the primary means of progress make a distinction between what you do, and what progress you make. I can do something that will present me with a totally different set of options than you will have. While you could argue that the order in which you take powers is not fixed and therefore non-linear, its possible to make a linear chart of progress from 1 to 50, and what specific reward you get for achieving each level from 1 to 50. you have no control over the order of progress through the system. With the Incarnate system, there is no way to make such a linear chart. it is, therefore, non-linear.
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| Most zones are no longer level locked at this point; those were lifted last year. You can walk a level 1 into the RWZ, despite the text of the guard outside the Vanguard building. |
And even with sidekicking, task forces have always had minimum true level limitations which I believe are still in force.
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As far as I can tell, though, it seems a lot of people are starting to sound like victims. The game is forcing me to do this. I have to make a choice between this and that. I'm going to fall behind.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
The concern is: being able to participate in this system while still being able to enjoy anything else the game has to offer. The worry is that it'll become an either/or situation, which is certainly the dynamic elsewhere.
I'm not saying that's the way it'll be. I actually think the developers are making some decisions to specifically avoid that sort of thing. All I'm saying is, I understand why people are worried, and I'm asking you to do the same. |
Every aspect of this is at the players discretion. I think the next quote is a perfect demonstration of the biggest problem here:
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Originally Posted by Luminara
Gear dependency. The Incarnate system has to culminate in something which makes it worth the time to create, to play and to experience, and I fully expect that grand finale to be a TF, Trial or raid which requires all participating characters to have all of their Incarnate slots unlocked and filled with at least one common boost.
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We have ONE slot out of TEN so far. At least wait until the next batch gets to live and see if it really is the grind everyone seems to be overreacting about. At that point we will have HALF of the system available to us and can come up with some kind of INFORMED opinion.
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I agree.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
As far as I can tell, though, it seems a lot of people are starting to sound like victims. The game is forcing me to do this. I have to make a choice between this and that. I'm going to fall behind.
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All these martyr cards being played are really getting old.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I agree.
All these martyr cards being played are really getting old. |
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I agree that you and I don't believe that the Developers intended for players to blast their way to level 50. I just find that they seem to be using methods of progression degradation that adversely affects those that do not blast their way to level 50. I really get irritated when the whole gets punished for what the few do.|
Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
I don't believe it was ever the intent of the developers for players to "blast" their way to 50. The fact that many players have figured out how to do so may explain why the developers seem to be trying to make incarnate progression deliberately time consuming.
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| How do we define a "reasonable" amount of time? When I started this game, my first real perceived goal was to get a character to 50. It took me nearly a year to get my first 50. Is that "reasonable?" I don't know, but I had fun getting there. As is often said around here, it's about the journey, not the destination. I knew it would take a lot of playtime to get a character to 50, but as long I was having fun, I didn't worry about it. If I wasn't having fun, I wouldn't have bothered getting my first character to level 2. |
I don't think I would call that reasonable. But, my idea of reasonable might not mesh with yours.
It comes down to a perceived value/time ratio. Is the slot worth the amount of time I would have to take to acquire it. I'm starting to lean more and more towards it not being worth it.
But, that's my personal value, not yours.
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| Full Incarnate progression will take a lot of play time. If I enjoy it, I'll get there eventually. If I don't, then I'll do something else. I just don't see any reason to be in a hurry when it comes to rewards and goals in this game. The quicker I accomplish everything, the quicker I'll run out of stuff to do and get bored. |
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| I love that after 2 years of playing, there are still plenty of things I have yet to accomplish. That's what keeps me interested. |
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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All of this is true, I was just making the point that while the incarnate system is definitely more free in specifics, it isn't as fundamental a change as it might seem; we already have more freedom than a lot of people realize.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Important distinction: when you gain level 20, there is only real way to measure progress from 19 to 20, or alternatively many different completely fungible ones: you earn linear XP to get from 19 to 20. When you gain level 20, you get exactly the same reward I do: you get to pick from a set of powers that is available within your powersets. Although you can pick different things, there is no way for you to change the way to get to level 20 in a way that would give you a different set of options. So the reward is essentially singular.
In the Incarnate system, the primary means of progress make a distinction between what you do, and what progress you make. I can do something that will present me with a totally different set of options than you will have. While you could argue that the order in which you take powers is not fixed and therefore non-linear, its possible to make a linear chart of progress from 1 to 50, and what specific reward you get for achieving each level from 1 to 50. you have no control over the order of progress through the system. With the Incarnate system, there is no way to make such a linear chart. it is, therefore, non-linear. |
When it comes to incarnate slot acquisition, that's less non-linear than you had previously predicted. Right now, it seems that after Alpha we have two linear tracks. And when it comes to actual incarnate abilities, that's no more non-linear than putting things into enhancement slots is now. We just happen to be able to put more dramatic things into them.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I wasn't aware RWZ was no longer level locked. However, one of the specific example I was thinking of was Cim, and the ITF which I mentioned. I'm assuming the Midnighter arcs that grant access to Cimerora still have minimum levels, and thus by extension Cimerora is level locked implicitly. I believe Ouroboros still has a minimum level as well, or has that been changed?
And even with sidekicking, task forces have always had minimum true level limitations which I believe are still in force. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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You don't like raids or TF's, so YOU CHOOSE the long grindy way. Then you complain that it is too long and grindy?
Well you picked it......
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I'm assuming that the developers aren't complete idiots. I'm assuming that they won't be stupid enough to make end-game content which can be completed by characters with none of the Incarnate abilities. I'm assuming that we aren't riding the Incarnate hype train just to get to the end of the line and discovering that not a single aspect of the Incarnate system will be necessary for that magical end-game content.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Great. You're ASSUMING you know what the finished incarnate system will look like and that's the basis for your criticism.
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The final result of the Incarnate system has to be something greater than just another level 50 TF that players can blitz in 20 minutes with SO-slotted characters, or every Issue dedicated to the Incarnate system is a colossal waste of time for all parties involved. In order to do that, it has to require players to have and use Incarnate abilities.
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| We have ONE slot out of TEN so far. At least wait until the next batch gets to live and see if it really is the grind everyone seems to be overreacting about. At that point we will have HALF of the system available to us and can come up with some kind of INFORMED opinion. |
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Then I am looking forward to seeing the specifics of the Incarnate Respec system.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There is one other set of things that is "bind on acquire" that is relevant to the Incarnate system: XP, Powers, and Slots.... Given that its intended specifically to be an extension of the standard progress system of the game, these things cannot be tradeable..
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I understand that the end game is "progressional". I am not so sure that such a system is in fact a better fit for this game than "more end-game activities". The why of this is left to a different post.
My read is that there is Incarnate XP which functions to open up the Incarnate slot (this is the progression you mentioned) AND THEN you have to craft something to put into that slot to make it "do something". Because the devs chose to present the "fill the slot with a power process" as a crafting process; they are running into conflicts with how players have used crafting process before in this game (which includes the ability to move things between alts or sell salvage at the Auction House).
The devs could have just as easily chosen to represent each potential Incarnate slot power as an XP bar and when you finish the appropriate content you choose where you want that Incarnate XP to empower. In essence, experience to power a skill-tree.
But, I understand why they wanted to break that direct flow of XP to XP bucket, the middleware you mentioned. They want to be able to fine-tune and "tweak on the fly" the progression time of the players. In fact, unlike xp acquisition, they can utilize it to tweak the progression time on a slot by slot basis, and do all other sorts of fun little tricks.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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No, you're assuming they think the same as you. Someone can have completely different opinions, plans and intentions without being an idiot.
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Originally Posted by Luminara
I'm assuming that the developers aren't complete idiots.
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I'd imagine the devs get tired of busting their humps to give us stuff to do only to have us (the players) figure out the most efficient way of doing it and turn it into just another speed run for the loot. Do you think Kahn or the ITF was meant to be run in 20 minutes? I doubt it, but people do it all the time.
Seems to me like they decided to make something impossible to speed through in a short amount of time. And I strongly suspect it is because the players have made an absolute mockery of everything they have thrown at us yet.
What good is being fast to 50 and allowed to be 49 in the meantime, when everybody is practically 51, 52, and so on?
And how are those extra levels that are not treated as such help speed-running TFs? When you pack tons of Incarnate stuff and Level Shift(s) but still read as 'level 50', imagine how fast you can blast through them THEN!