ROFL WOW just WOW
Since when does ANYONE have to do anything Incarnate? Oh wait.. you don't 
I have some 50's who are incarnates..some who are not.
I do not grind for shards. I do the WSF if I want to do it. As of yesterday all my Incarnates (7) are tier 3; with one being a tier 4. I have never farmed for shards, I have never done something (tf) I have not wanted to, and oh yeah I play this game to have fun...and I do.
People complaining that Apex/Tin Mage require an Alpha slot....
Katie Hannon requires you do her arc at a specific level
LRSF requires you complete the patron arc....
Rikti Mothership Raid... Not gonna get many Vanguard Merits if you haven't unlocked the badge...
The precedent for prerequisites in this game has always been there....
Heck I can't even unlock my character's costume auras any more unless I GASP... Unlock their cape... BOOOOOO! So you see if I wanna make my toon have that shiny aura.. I have to do the cape mission (Boo Devs Boo)...
Kinda like.. oh yeah.... If I wanna do the Tin Mage TF I have to unlock my alpha slot at a minimum..
GET OVER IT!
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I should have been more clear. Yes, some content that was gated eventually gets changed in terms of either being no longer gated or being gated in a different, lesser way over time. But in that sense, all the content gates on the Incarnate system would have to be judged in a similar light: namely that those gates are no different than the ones in the past if they eventually get changed several years from now.|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
I have to, respectfully, disagree with the bolded part of your statement (if I read it correctly. which I might not have, since I just woke up from a nap. ((I hate working graveyard)).
They have repealed some of the gates from previously gated stuff. Take the level requirements for the zones, for instance. They were causing issues with missions belonging to characters lower than the level allowed entry as well as side kicking. They fixed that problem. The Zookeeper badge, used to have a (some would say ridiculous) huge number of defeats to acquire. They reduced the number of defeats required. They also lowered the level limit to unlock the EATs from 50 to 20. They do adjust (and sometimes remove) restrictions for gated content at times. If I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize and will go back to sleep. |
What I meant, though, was that almost from the moment you roll a character, you're presented with content gates, and those content gates are not the weird exception in the low game: as you progress you continue to run into content gates, and that gating never actually stops short of players basically hitting the level cap (or close to it). Because players keep running into content gates throughout their game play experience, its inexplicable to claim that content gates are an unusual odd occurrence in the end game that implies a sudden shift in the way the game has developed. Someone may not like content gates specifically, but you really can't claim that content gates represent a change in the way this MMO has functioned, when content gates exist across all levels of standard progression.
Its left to split hairs to say that these content gates are different because of fill in the blank. But if you're going to claim that this is something that represents a dramatic shift by the developers, I believe you should be able to state why its not reasonable for the devs themselves to consider that difference to be generally irrelevant to the way they've always designed the game.
Lets put it in a way where I don't have to keep being clumsily referential. If I were designing the end game, it would be gated. I would do that with the full understanding that this game has gated content, and the gated content has followed certain design rules in terms of how strong and exclusive those gates could be. The current end game is, minus some details, consistent with my understanding of how the current game was designed. I would have no problem at all actually designing the system in terms of its participation in basically the same way it actually is designed.
So lets assume it was me that designed the end game, and not Positron. I can't ascribe thought or motivation to Positron, but I can take full responsibility for my own thoughts and motivations. I believe the game hasn't departed significantly from its core design philosophy, except to actual details of the end game, which are technical innovations and not radical alterations in content gating philosophy.
Players saying the devs have an obligation to explain their sudden dramatic change in philosophy or alternatively to explain how they intend to *return* to their original philosophy would be asking me, in that case, to explain how my thinking changed from the past to now, when my thinking didn't change from the past to now. So how could I possibly respond to that request?
Maybe Positron sees it differently: maybe he himself considers the end game to be a major departure from all the design philosophy that has come before. I can't say for certain either way. I can say for certain I don't see it differently. So its *possible* he sees it the same way, and if so he would be equally unable to really respond to these calls for explaining "the change" that would be satisfactory to anyone asking, because I can't come up with one and I don't think anyone else could. The request is based on the *assumption* there has to be a reason for the change, because there's been a change. If Positron said that there wasn't one, all that would do is cause people to grumble that he just doesn't get it: that he must obviously be out of touch with the playerbase if he can't see that we know better than he does that he's radically changed his development perspective.
And I couldn't do any better than him in this specific situation, because I'm clearly not doing all that well convincing anyone that there's no obvious shift in design philosophy.
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Fair enough, but the basic point remains: Better to attempt to alleviate concern than to pile onto it, no?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That statement (the italicized one in the devs' voice specifically) has two problems: its highly subjective, so what one person feels demonstrates this will not satisfy others; and its extremist, because once you use the words "no matter how [much]" you make the assumption people will draw a reasonable line across that statement, and what people find reasonable is highly variable. So its unlikely that any evidence pointing in that direction would not be controversial, if not out-right rejected.
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The system represents new terrain for City and it bears resemblance to the end game dynamics of Other Games That Shall Not Be Named. So... I can see why it would make people twitchy. It certainly got an eyebrow quirk from me initially, but I've since put myself on the fence about it (leaning toward positive), because of some of the design decisions that've been made.
That said, I don't think the concerns are without merit and they ought not be casually dismissed. Certainly, the people expressing them shouldn't be referred to as "whiners" or "crybabies". That doesn't really help anyone.
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The system seems reasonably accessible, and far moreso than most of the end game systems I've seen in other games. It requires only moderate amounts of time to get the majority of the progress available. It even encourages the harcore players to pursue diminishing returns in a way that provides opportunities for less dedicated players to continue to receive significant rewards: things like the Very Rare slots and WST badges create long-term pursuit goals for players that, in the act of pursuing them will continue to create demand for WST teaming which increases the likelihood of other players to be able to participate. WST targets are not always level 50 task forces and strike forces, which means level 50s pursuing Notices are creating an environment where low level alts can participate and get an alternate reward: massive XP bonuses. All you really have to do to participate, is participate. Is it accessible enough? That's subjective. Honestly, the only player group I think have a legitimate accessibility gripe are low activity soloers. And they have *always* been on the low end of reward and progress earning. That's not new, and while it can be tweaked, that issue cannot be fully resolved without basically disconnecting rewards from activity, which I would be loathe to do. |
I'm not yet as acquainted with all the details as you are, but I've seen enough that I'm no longer dreading the rest of the system's introduction. "Is it accessible enough?" is indeed the question. I think what's on a lot of people's minds is: are the developers asking themselves that? Any indication that they are would probably lessen a lot of the worry.
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That's not the main concern. At least not in the posts I've been reading. And it's certainly not what I've been trying to describe.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
And THAT is where you go astray. If your main concern is 'keeping up with the Joneses', then the problem lies with you, and not with the game.
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The concern is: being able to participate in this system while still being able to enjoy anything else the game has to offer. The worry is that it'll become an either/or situation, which is certainly the dynamic elsewhere.
I'm not saying that's the way it'll be. I actually think the developers are making some decisions to specifically avoid that sort of thing. All I'm saying is, I understand why people are worried, and I'm asking you to do the same.
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| If you want to try to 'keep up' with a certain segment of the playerbase, feel free. But don't complain that the game is MAKING you do it. |
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Is anyone asking that though?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Players saying the devs have an obligation to explain their sudden dramatic change in philosophy or alternatively to explain how they intend to *return* to their original philosophy would be asking me, in that case, to explain how my thinking changed from the past to now, when my thinking didn't change from the past to now. So how could I possibly respond to that request?
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It seems to me that it's more about looking for an assurance that there hasn't been a dramatic change in philosophy.
Players: 'Does this content mean there's been a change in design philosophy?'
You: 'Nope.'
Players: 'Well, alright then.'
Edit to add:
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| And I couldn't do any better than him in this specific situation, because I'm clearly not doing all that well convincing anyone that there's no obvious shift in design philosophy. |
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Gear dependency. The Incarnate system has to culminate in something which makes it worth the time to create, to play and to experience, and I fully expect that grand finale to be a TF, Trial or raid which requires all participating characters to have all of their Incarnate slots unlocked and filled with at least one common boost.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
There is nothing stopping you from playing alts but yourself.
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If that isn't the case, then the Incarnate system fails to meet its goal, which is to be a vehicle for continued progression for level 50 characters. Every slot has to have a purpose, every boost has to have a use, or the whole thing is moot. If the end game that they've designed doesn't require all, or at least most of our Incarnate abilities, then the whole thing will be a pointless waste of time with no real benefit for the game. If we get to the end game and discover that it could be beaten by characters with no Incarnate abilities, it's going to explode in the developers' faces. The words "epic **** storm" come to mind.
With the current beta info provided by Zombie Man, it will take 780 hours (32.5 days if the player logs in at exactly 20 hours every day, in concert with the conversion timer expiration), 390 shards and 472,500,000 inf* for a solo player to unlock all four new Incarnate slots and put a common boost in each one, using the 1:1 shard to thread conversion rate, which has a cost of 2.5 million and a 20 hour timer. That's at a shard generation rate of 10 per 20 hours. 10 shards every 20 hours doesn't seem like much, but that's for every alt to reach the minimum expected requirements for that "Ultimate Incarnate Trial". Being alts, most aren't likely to be highly efficient farming machines, so they're going to take longer, or require more time invested to get 10 per 20 hours.
Teaming up for the two new Trials will be faster, but it will also mean running the same two Trials 2-5 times to unlock each of the four new slots, per character, and another 2-5 times per common boost, per character. Given all of the cries over the years for new mission maps, new zones, zone revamps, TF redesigns, I can't honestly consider this a "better" option for many players. Faster, yes, but for anyone trying to attain Incarnate status for more than a very select few alts, potentially tedious and sufficiently so to prevent them from attempting to repeat it for more than a few alts, especially considering that it will take many more runs of these Trials for these players to "kit out" their mains. Historically, doing the same thing too many times has resulting in players being less delighted or willing to do it yet again (typically referred to as "burned out"), for practically any reason, which results in a lack of sufficient interested people for other players to use this gate to enter Incarnate territory in the future, for their mains or their alts.
The end result is restrictions on your options to play alts, either due to the enormous amount of time or inf* required, or lack of interest in doing one of those two Trials. It may also mean that any sub-50 alts you have, or will have in the future, could be locked out of upcoming content for an indefinite period as you struggle to unlock slots solo, gather enough interested parties to play through the necessary gates or even convince yourself that you can make it through a few dozen more runs through the BAF/Lambda.
When that gear-dependent finale goes live, any alts which don't meet the requirements will not be playable in that content. And for a lot of players, that means sacrificing alts now because they don't have the time to grind the shards or inf* for all of their favorite characters to keep from falling one or more Issues behind in content access, or the stomach to run one or two Trials a few hundred times.
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So, it has the potential to be set up in such a way that if you want to pursue Incarnate content you will no longer be allowed to play anything else in the game? |
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
This system has the potential to be the first point in this game's development where, if a person wants to pursue the new content, it'll have to be at the exclusion of everything else the game has to offer. |
Because that is the only way end game content and the rest of the game will ever be mutually exclusive.
I really don't think that scenario is at all likely to happen.
Yes, the casual players will lag behind the hardcore players in how fast they advance their Incarnates. But casual players have ALWAYS lagged behind the hardcore players in accomplishing anything. That hasn't changed any, and the introduction of Incarnates isn't a significant shift in the dynamic.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've been around since release, and I've seen and participated in pretty much every single "fundamental change" this game has enacted. If there's one thing all of these fundamental changes have in common, its that nothing fundamental changed.
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The change that people are expressing as a "fundamental shift" is that the devs have finally applied the "bind on acquire" concept that they have been playing around with since Vanguard Merits to main character advancement. All previous "end game" items were "bind on equip".
This difference presents a (imho) large difference in how I now make decisions in the game in consuming its content. With IOs and Hami-Os, I can play any alt I want and send currency/items to another alt that may need it or can use it if that alt cannot. Also, I can choose to play any game content and I would still be making some progress on my alt and potentially any of my other alts in their end games.
The Incarnate Process is completely opposite. Each character only gets to consume what they themselves have played. There can be no sharing between alts. This is why people are calling it "alt unfriendly".
I imagine that simply allowing players to email incarnate salvage to each other would go a long way to loosening things up.
Sir Zane (Lvl 50, Inv/SS/Nrg Tank);Atomic Jake (Lvl 50, Kin/Rad/Elec Defender)
Nikolai (Lvl 50, DM/EA/GW Brute);Raging Stallion (Lvl 50 MA/SR/Weap Scrapper)
Archmage Tristam (Lvl 50 Ill/Son/Psi Controller)
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-g=C800:5
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Agreed, but the only concern the Devs might have is that people scream for end content, and this suggestion although viable in some ways, might counter that goal.
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Originally Posted by Sir_Zane
The change that people are expressing as a "fundamental shift" is that the devs have finally applied the "bind on acquire" concept that they have been playing around with since Vanguard Merits to main character advancement. All previous "end game" items were "bind on equip".
This difference presents a (imho) large difference in how I now make decisions in the game in consuming its content. With IOs and Hami-Os, I can play any alt I want and send currency/items to another alt that may need it or can use it if that alt cannot. Also, I can choose to play any game content and I would still be making some progress on my alt and potentially any of my other alts in their end games. The Incarnate Process is completely opposite. Each character only gets to consume what they themselves have played. There can be no sharing between alts. This is why people are calling it "alt unfriendly". I imagine that simply allowing players to email incarnate salvage to each other would go a long way to loosening things up. |
I am going to try one last time, because I do not think I am getting my perspective across, particularly when looking at this comment in response to a statement I made (emphasis added):
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I in know way want to characterize my perception as an objective reality for anyone but myself. It is my subjective reality, that I am sharing as input to the overall discussion. I only ask that it be honored as that. I assume (perhaps erroneously) that it may be shared by others in the community, and is worthy of least an airing to that end accordingly.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Lots of things "feel differently" to me simply because I personally care about some things more than others. There's nothing wrong with that. But I don't represent my feeling as an objective reality that everyone should honor by default.
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I recognize that things change and alter and morph, especially within an active game like CoH. That is healthy and good for the long term.
I've tried multiple other MMOs and never spent a dime or more than a few hours in the free ones. CoH for whatever reason has over the years hit my sweet spot. It has been fun - costumes, ATs, power, solo, teams, TF, all of it. I have ridden each change - finding and taking my fun out of them and passing over that which doesn't spark my interest without a hiccup.
To me, for me, from my perspective as I play teamed and solo the excitement I had looking forward to Incarnate action has muted considerably.
I am not saying dooooom. I am not complaining about the drops/gating - it makes sense and seems pretty straight forward. It is accessible, mechanically it is nicely structured, almost elegant (though my experience, again, with similar MMO activities is limited).
I like and played certain 50s regularly before incarnates and I was excited to take them on an incarnate path... a few are now level shifted and I've taken a couple through the the coming trials.
I (me, myself) do not like it. The fact is for me that this is taking CoH off of my sweet spot. It is not engagingly fun and is not the same game.
I know everything I like from before is still there, and I do not have to play the new shiny. I get that, too. But I like my 50s and I want them to progress - I've invested in them for years now, and I do not want to stop.
But I do not like the progression in front of me as it has been presented. That's all.
And I do not have to.
But, that does not alter the fact that for me CoH is changing in a way I do not embrace, this time.
Again, I do not say this to be a crybaby, and I do not mean to whine. It is an observation and perspective no less true than that of people that love the new stuff (and I am happy for them).
My feeling is not an objective reality for all. But it is a subjective reality that is no less real for my CoH constituency (even if that is a a constituency of one). I know other CoH constituencies have had similar issues. I sympathized with them then, and I understand their positions better now.
I am not whining and stomping my feet. I am sharing. If there is no place for my perspective, so be it.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
This all boils down to:
Before, you could access everything in the game relatively easily, whether solo or in groups. Even Task Force rewards had an alternate path to obtain. In fact, with all the varied currencies introduced over the last 5 years, there are many many ways to obtain everything in the game except...
Incarnate stuff.
It's taken me a while to see what the gripe is over this, but let me see if I get it now.
People who are upset feel that there is no reasoable way to obtain incarnate stuff, which they want, except by doing incarnate stuff. i.e., you can't buy shards with any other game currency.
Also, you can't even play incarnate trials without said incarnate stuff, thereby denying solo players and casual players from seeing the best of the new content.
So the gist is, this incarnate stuff is sort of a seperate game, which is kinda new because even AE stuff gave regular people rewards options.
Is this the issue?
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Originally Posted by DanZero
This all boils down to:
Before, you could access everything in the game relatively easily, whether solo or in groups. Even Task Force rewards had an alternate path to obtain. In fact, with all the varied currencies introduced over the last 5 years, there are many many ways to obtain everything in the game except... Incarnate stuff. It's taken me a while to see what the gripe is over this, but let me see if I get it now. People who are upset feel that there is no reasoable way to obtain incarnate stuff, which they want, except by doing incarnate stuff. i.e., you can't buy shards with any other game currency. Also, you can't even play incarnate trials without said incarnate stuff, thereby denying solo players and casual players from seeing the best of the new content. So the gist is, this incarnate stuff is sort of a seperate game, which is kinda new because even AE stuff gave regular people rewards options. Is this the issue? |
I think that sums it up nicely for the main opposition.
I think my hang up is that I don't like the incarnate content, but want the incarnate stuff. And again, there is no other way to get the stuff... so yeah, you may have hit it on the head.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Okay. That makes sense. You want the stuff but don't like the content. And there no way to get the stuff without doing the content. Valid point.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
I think that sums it up nicely for the main opposition.
I think my hang up is that I don't like the incarnate content, but want the incarnate stuff. And again, there is no other way to get the stuff... so yeah, you may have hit it on the head. |
For you, I hope they reduce the number of shards to create stuff then. They probably will eventually. Or, stuff will be fore sale on the market eventually. But yeah, that sucks.
But those of us who do like the content are not elitists. I don't think you said that but others have... let's just agree that it's definitely causing a rift, but is not the end of the game by far.
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I'd like to get back to this.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
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In all those things mentioned and other power gains in the game I can think of, the gain is way less or comes at a cost.
- When you gain levels, you have to fight enemies of one higher level for the same reward and you have to move on to more dangerous enemies. You are too powerful for Skulls and Council recruits with SMGs and have to move on to Tsoo, Council Werewolves and Vampires, Rikti, Malta, etc. Otherwise it becomes a lot easier to defeat stuff alright, but at the cost of getting way less rewards too.
- When getting an Accolade it is either a minor attack or something that you can't use all the time, so it is a rather minor gain.
- When slotting a new enhancement the gain is gradual, enhances just a single power, and there is no extra gain but what you payed for.
- When going for IO sets that DO give some extra bonus, you even have to make a tradeoff. Slot the power for the functionality you want, e.g. 3 times Dam, 2 times Acc, one End/Rech, or get the set bonus but have to go with what the set enhancements give.
My point being, nothing gives you something as powerful as a level-up for free.
Yet with the Level Shift you get that as you can beat up 50 as easy as if they were 49s and still get rewards as if you were still 50, and it is always active.
Nothing ever was as powerful and making such a difference as a Level Shift. That mechanic IS quite a change imo.
I have it, and I find it is way too good and useful in every situation to not get it. And it would be very inefficient to first play a ton of level 50 stuff and THEN get it, as you wasted a lot of effort and rewards that way. So sure, I want it on a 50, and if they come up with more Level Shifts for more Incarnate stuff that works the same way that would even widen the gap between having them and not having them, and thus increase the incentive to get them. All. Fast.
I'd prefer the Incarnate stuff to be a cool thing to have, maybe coming with a downside even, not uber kame hame hair over the top stuff that makes non incarnate 50s looks puny. That's not nice, and breaking how nicely little difference bit stuff did and how nicely characters with billions spent on them and low budget ones could play together in this game before.
Oh, and it's not like I think everything will be DOOM that way. I just think when sticking to the old concept it would be even better.
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Really not comparable.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
First of all, the notion that the end game is fundamentally antithetical to alts is unoriginal. The same charge was made against the invention system, which was the previous "thing for 50s to do." People complained that in effect the invention system was *the* singular way for level 50 characters to develop, but the time and energy necessary to make the perfect optimal invention build was too high to be able to do it for the X number of alts they had. The invention system "fundamentally changed" the notion that when you hit 50, you were "done." Before that, the fundamental change was Hamidon, and Hamidon enhancements - once the pioneers spent all that time and energy figuring out how to do Hamidon in a way that was reproducible in open raids. Level 50 progress was doing that one raid over and over again until you had a character with 80 HOs. And that was grindy and time consuming and required doing things not everyone wanted to do. It was a "fundamental change" to the way players managed alts and level 50s. |
With both the invention system and Hamidon, you could trade for and or specialize your alts to deal with the system. If you enjoy taunting the yellows you can have your tank do that when you raid and distribute the benefits how you see fit amongst your alts.
The invention system is much the same way. If you have an alt that you have leveled up but don't enjoy playing, instead of deleting it, you can work the invention system with it.
The same holds true all the way back to just SOs where a good earning alt could help provide for all the other alts.
That is mostly gone. Inf is the only thing left that can be moved amongst alts. This would be useful if the inf requirements weren't so large that for most people crafting incarnate pieces will be consuming their available inf for a long while.
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| Before *that*, the complaint was that it just plain took too much time to level to 50. If the game encouraged playing alts, why did it take so long for people with lives and kids and jobs to get to 50? Why couldn't someone get to fifty in a reasonable amount of time, like say a couple of weeks of a few hours a week, which is all the time these busy people had? The game was unfriendly to alts for people who could only spend "normal" amounts of time playing it. |
Oops wait, it didn't.
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| Now its "the devs added something, and its something I must pursue, and this will cause me to spend time doing something other than what I was doing before, ergo this is a fundamental shift in the game." forgive me for generalizing, but people who think this is a fundamental shift are quite frankly only noticing the fundamental shift from the changes in the game being about things they liked or didn't care about, to things they just coincidentally happen to. Its happened non-stop throughout the history of the game. It happened with the release of City of Villains, and people saying the red side would detract and distract from the blue side, which was the "real game." It will happen in the future with game additions beyond the end game and the Incarnate system. |
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| We've always had level gated content. Even with side-kicking, its very hard to get your level 30 onto an ITF. Even when this game was just two minutes old players were finding out that Perez was level locked and you couldn't enter it to team or even run the missions you had that were inside it until you reached its minimum level. The game throws gates in your face from birth, and they never go away. |
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| I'm not saying not to voice displeasure when the game does something you don't like. But attempting to characterize the end game system as being so fundamentally unique as to suggest its obviously problematic contradicts the entire history of the game. This is not a fundamental change. What I'm finding personally is that increasingly, I'm prepared to fundamentally disprove that point, which is a step I'm usually not willing to do for emotionally charged issues, but I'm increasingly less concerned about. |
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I feel like this is saying, "I like money, but I don't like having a job too make the money. Give me a way to get money without having a job!"|
Originally Posted by Chyll
I think my hang up is that I don't like the incarnate content, but want the incarnate stuff. And again, there is no other way to get the stuff... so yeah, you may have hit it on the head. |
Truthfully, the Dev's actually already have given you a way to get it without doing the Incarnate content. It's called grinding the same old content for shards.
I would love the shards and components to become tradable though so people unwilling to run new content could buy them. I would make BANK!!!!!!
Also I'm not seeing the huge disparity between lvl shifted toons and reg old 50's. The disparity between SO'd 50's and a well IO'd build is much greater IMO.
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One point... this is a game, not a job. People who are casual and don't have a lot of time, or people who aren't into large scale raids will not find this fun. Personally, I enjoy the incarnate content so to me it seems unimportant.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
I feel like this is saying, "I like money, but I don't like having a job too make the money. Give me a way to get money without having a job!"
Truthfully, the Dev's actually already have given you a way to get it without doing the Incarnate content. It's called grinding the same old content for shards. I would love the shards and components to become tradable though so people unwilling to run new content could buy them. I would make BANK!!!!!! |
Let's say your hobby was building miniature ships but suddenly, the only way to get the new and interesting parts was to be a firefighter... and you hate fires. Suddenly, you can either keep building the same old boring ships, or... do something you hate to get the enjoyment.
It's a silly example, but some people really do find TFs and raids to be the equivilent of a high pressure job like firefighting (without the risk of death, obviously).
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That isn't analogous really.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
I feel like this is saying, "I like money, but I don't like having a job too make the money. Give me a way to get money without having a job!"
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I don't have a wife and kids depending on whether I get that next shard.
DanZero said that better than I did...
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
I agree its not a great analogy. But I still say it about priorities. Casual gamer ....blah blah blah.... families and jobs ... blah blah. You can't really expect have the same benefits from playing the game 1-2 hours a week as someone who plays 20+. Thats not rational or at all fair to the person putting in the time.
I have a job and a family too. Who doesn't?
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It's not about how much time, but how that time is spent. Whether you spend 20 hours a week playing or 2, you want to relax, and enjoy. These folks are saying they don't find the incarnate requirements enjoyable, and there is no alternative.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
I agree its not a great analogy. But I still say it about priorities. Casual gamer ....blah blah blah.... families and jobs ... blah blah. You can't really expect have the same benefits from playing the game 1-2 hours a week as someone who plays 20+. Thats not rational or at all fair to the person putting in the time.
I have a job and a family too. Who doesn't? |
Every other high end reward has a reasonable alternative. They believe this does not.
Look, I was the guy arguing that it's gated content for a reason and if you want it, you have to work the system. Now, I'm not so sure.
Just because it fits my playstyle, and I like it, doesn't mean I'm right in saying 'get over it'.
Everything else in the game has 2 or 3 ways to aquire it in a reasonable amount of time. High end incarnate stuff does not. That makes it different from everything else and yeah, could make a section of players feel left out.
I'm coming around to see that this might be a legitimate gripe on their part.
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For the grind complainers... yeah, your point is probably on target.|
Originally Posted by MajorTractor
I agree its not a great analogy. But I still say it about priorities. Casual gamer ....blah blah blah.... families and jobs ... blah blah. You can't really expect have the same benefits from playing the game 1-2 hours a week as someone who plays 20+. Thats not rational or at all fair to the person putting in the time.
I have a job and a family too. Who doesn't? |
I wouldn't mind the grind if I liked the content.
I do/have done all the other grinds in the game without great qualm. I don't like this one. And I don't want to not like it.... you know that is probably my problem.... I'm truly let down by the game for the first time...
*slinks away to think about that some*
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
I think the Incarnate system differs from the rest of the game for a fairly good reason.
It is apparently intended to give you something for your level 50s to do for the rest of the time you play the game, rather than something that will be popular for a few months and turn into business as usual once the novelty wears off.
If it were not time consuming, there are a whole lot of people who would blow through it in a few months and start up the whole "There's nothing to do at 50!" chant again.
It seems to be intentionally designed so people can't blow through the whole thing in a short amount of time and get bored again. When you really get down to it, the end game content in ANY game is nothing more than something to keep people occupied and playing the game.
I'd imagine the devs get tired of busting their humps to give us stuff to do only to have us (the players) figure out the most efficient way of doing it and turn it into just another speed run for the loot. Do you think Kahn or the ITF was meant to be run in 20 minutes? I doubt it, but people do it all the time.
Seems to me like they decided to make something impossible to speed through in a short amount of time. And I strongly suspect it is because the players have made an absolute mockery of everything they have thrown at us yet.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yep, I agree completely with your conclusion, Claws. From a design and mechanism standpoint I really like what they have accomplished (drops, powers sequence, crafting structure, etc.).
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I think the Incarnate system differs from the rest of the game for a fairly good reason.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
They have repealed some of the gates from previously gated stuff. Take the level requirements for the zones, for instance. They were causing issues with missions belonging to characters lower than the level allowed entry as well as side kicking. They fixed that problem.
The Zookeeper badge, used to have a (some would say ridiculous) huge number of defeats to acquire. They reduced the number of defeats required.
They also lowered the level limit to unlock the EATs from 50 to 20.
They do adjust (and sometimes remove) restrictions for gated content at times.
If I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize and will go back to sleep.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"