Wow, I have to say. This is SUCK!
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2011-02-04 19:40 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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LMAO Epic game, got to go to new grounds more, I love the balloon games, I was playing one balloon game for 6 hours once, let's just say the stuff they were throwing at me was impossible... But I still did it. |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
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@OP:
Take ten minutes and pick up Shivans.
Really, the zone is empty most of the time.
With all these STFs, you're going to get some.... extra special teams. I've been on two so far this weekend, one being a four hour mess with us stuck at GW and the other was with a tank that couldn't hold LR and live.
Both of them, had Team Leaders that were new to the role. And i hate to say, they may some bad choices to the power sets. Had thought with two storms and a kin, had enough debuffs at the first tf... but nope. Second one, we had the debuffs but only one tank and he was a fire tank.
So once again, I learn the lesson with STF... you need to pick the proper mix of powers and/or take the time to get the temp powers that can help.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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Except that it's anti-design to exclude 90% of the playerbase and punish them for not playing specific sets. In an MMO environment, your designs have to encompass and allow for flexibility and chaos. Buffed Recluse and Ghost Widow on the STF are great examples of bad designs that slap players for not falling into a specific niche (Defense softcap in this case).|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
... you need to pick the proper mix of powers and/or take the time to get the temp powers that can help.
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In a Master run environment, temp powers aren't an option. And 'proper mix of powers' translates to 'softcap defenses, a Stone Tank, and a Rad'
Talk about tunnel-vision...
Edit: That isn't to say that things shouldn't be difficult, or that everything in the game should be easy for everyone. Too easy = boring and uninteresting. However, a team of Tank/Support/Damage should be able to handle things.
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Wow, that was amazing. Ty for linking it XD
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
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<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
Umm, this is a rant. No logic required here.
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Hey you ranted now we get to pick on you. LOL Really I have done the STF 13 times this week and only failed twice and neither of those had a thing to do with Ghost Widow. By the time those two teams fell apart she was long gone and nothing more than a memory. Biggest thing to do to beat her is .. everyone BUT the tank stay behind her. her heals only work on anything in front of of her so if you are to the side or behind you can do all sorts of damage without her healing off you.
I've never been on one but there have been successful All Melee STFs on live so it can certainly be done.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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I've only ever run one STF. It was on my Fire/Fire tank. I was the only tank on the team. We succeeded.|
Originally Posted by Pinkpup
With all these STFs, you're going to get some.... extra special teams. I've been on two so far this weekend, one being a four hour mess with us stuck at GW and the other was with a tank that couldn't hold LR and live.
Both of them, had Team Leaders that were new to the role. And i hate to say, they may some bad choices to the power sets. Had thought with two storms and a kin, had enough debuffs at the first tf... but nope. Second one, we had the debuffs but only one tank and he was a fire tank. So once again, I learn the lesson with STF... you need to pick the proper mix of powers and/or take the time to get the temp powers that can help. |
I took on LR by myself while the rest of the team handled the towers, supported by one set of FF shields and a Fortitude from the Emp, and the Wedding Band temporary power. I was out of range of the Maneuvers and Dispersion Bubbles that kept everyone else's defenses in the 80-100% range (which had made the rest of the TF rather easy). The only real problem I found was that Mag 13 KB protection isn't quite enough - I was getting knocked back a few feet by hus cone attack even through Acrobatics and a -KB IO. So it's not a question of "requiring" certain powersets, but needing a certain level of all-around ability. Our team was support-heavy, so we could cover the fact that the tanker wasn't quite ideal for the situation. But we could and did cover it, and with a bit more inspiration manangement from me and a similar team, I'm confident we could have made a MoSTF - the only deaths were from silly stunts (one was me planning to RotP, which I wouldn't have tried), and the Wedding Band was very convenient, but can be made up with enough med/large oranges.
Regardless, softcap + stoner + rad is not the only way to do MoSTF, and Mo is not the only way to do the STF. And remember, a Force Field Defender can softcap their entire team using only SOs - FF + Rad + any Res tanker is a very good approximation of the above setup, and you can add damage, buffs or debuffs to taste without making any build demands of them.
Being a team of vets is meaningless. I did this with a whole team full of scrappers but it was the way I tanked it to prevent her healing that mattered most. She went down fast. What could clearly be wrong is how she was being tanked or the fact that some scrappers were fighting with their taunt auras on.
Edit: The game doesn't suck.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Fail
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Originally Posted by Pinkpup
So once again, I learn the lesson with STF... you need to pick the proper mix of powers and/or take the time to get the temp powers that can help.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I hope you're rant is intended to show your frustration at your teamates for not listening to people explain what to do and not to do. If she's healing from your toons in melee... it's not that hard to come up with the strategy of just not fighting from melee distance to win.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
I can accept not everyone cares about the game to the extent than some of us do, but... During all those 81 months, haven't you learned anything about the game to make you able to devise a strategy? Even if not, couldn't you have used a few minutes out of those 81 months to look up a guide?
People need to stop with these "was the STF changed recently". The only difference is your usual Atlas Park / AE dweller (which is, on average, a worse player than most) is coming out in IP to run the TF and get a Notice of the Well, ending up in weaker teams than usual.
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All it takes is /kick. I've completed the STF on PUGs with 5-6 players and it wasn't unreasonably hard.| The thing is, it actually just takes one stubborn player to mess this up. If you have someone on the team who won't max out their def, avoid aggro, or avoid melee with her, the whole team is stuffed. |
Really, I read all this garbage about horrible teams and players who just won't listen, but I've found that if you communicate nicely 9 out of 10 players will listen (and yes, I do know nice, even though I'm coming like a jerk here ).
If you fail any TF, there is only one person to blame and that person is you. Very, very basic leadership skills can get any team through any task in this game.
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That is such an extrovert song. Not everyone is a thrill-seeker; we don't all get enjoyment from it. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
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now.
Not saying you need a stone or a rad in every group... but it does help covering your bases so there isn't any disappointment when you face the GW or LR. Maybe a better team could have figured a way around, or we just got sloppy.
I hate to say it, but STF is like that... either its really smooth or a total heartbreak. My earlier one the next morning was pretty easy when I used the same toon from the prior night's failure. And the other had a MM/Dark and me a dark/rad... and we still bombed. Today, who knows which side the coin will land.
So I will take a harder look at the team when we're recruiting, and be sure someone is on the team as good as you folks seem to think you are. Not saying you're not, just when its time to crush coal into diamonds... folks are able to do it.
And with PUGs, always plan for the worst and hope for the best.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
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Wow.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
That is such an extrovert song. Not everyone is a thrill-seeker; we don't all get enjoyment from it.
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Even SONGS are labeled as introvert/extrovert in your world view.
Just, wow.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Some of them, yes. Not all, by far, but as with anything that expresses preferences and philosophies, some are going to be extroverted, some introverted, and some neither. That one particular song happens to be written from a clear view-point of an extrovert. An introvert isn't going to be inspired by the song the same way an extrovert is, because our brains work differently. |
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Even SONGS are labeled as introvert/extrovert in your world view.
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We literally* do not get the same rushes that extroverts do. Our brains don't give us the same charge from excitement and thrill that yours do. We're different. You really need to get used to it.
*I actually mean literally here, not in the hyperbolic, metaphoric way people like to use literally.
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So, and correct me if I'm wrong here since im a simple cubicle monkey and not a neuro-physiologist or whatever, but there are people out there who cannot enjoy something if there is a possibility of loss? So if it's only enjoyable if it's easy then how does anything in that kind of person's life have any worth? God, I feel sorry for them. Seriously. No sarcasm there. Just pity. One of the most enjoyable things I run into this game are intense situations like the STF or Apex TF. Where it isnt a foregone conclusion how the fight will turn out. I mostly run a perma PA ill/rad with a very respectable build and the vast majority of game content doesnt challenge me. I really enjoy running up on GW or LR with the knowledge that I very well may get my can handed to me. That it would make someone unhappy or ruin their game experience to possibly lose that single encounter when they steamroll 99% of the game content just doesnt make sense to me. But you said our brains work differently. I can accept that. And be grateful.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Some of them, yes. Not all, by far, but as with anything that expresses preferences and philosophies, some are going to be extroverted, some introverted, and some neither. That one particular song happens to be written from a clear view-point of an extrovert. An introvert isn't going to be inspired by the song the same way an extrovert is, because our brains work differently.
We literally* do not get the same rushes that extroverts do. Our brains don't give us the same charge from excitement and thrill that yours do. We're different. You really need to get used to it. *I actually mean literally here, not in the hyperbolic, metaphoric way people like to use literally. |
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Some of them, yes. Not all, by far, but as with anything that expresses preferences and philosophies, some are going to be extroverted, some introverted, and some neither. That one particular song happens to be written from a clear view-point of an extrovert. An introvert isn't going to be inspired by the song the same way an extrovert is, because our brains work differently.
We literally* do not get the same rushes that extroverts do. Our brains don't give us the same charge from excitement and thrill that yours do. We're different. You really need to get used to it. *I actually mean literally here, not in the hyperbolic, metaphoric way people like to use literally. |
I don't know whether I'm an introvert or extrovert, but I think that song sucks. That's ok because there are plenty of songs I don't care for that seem to be popular with other people. My personal dislike of it is probably less connected to brain chemistry than individual taste in music. Altho in my case it also has something to do with this comment on YouTube: "This was in a Mary Kate and Ashley movie, Holiday in the sun
"Now, all of this said, I don't consider myself much of an "extrovert" even tho I am someone who likes to team most of the time. I don't have personal discussions with my teammates, or keep them on a friends list for future reference. I don't belong to any super groups, or regularly interact with anyone in particular. I just tend to pick up and go with whoever is around.
I said previously that I am not a fan of AV mechanics. The STF, to me, is a "brick wall" style challenge that is more annoying than challenging. It's the sort of thing I'm fine with when it's some remote activity we don't have to deal with too often, but when it's recentered as a "must do to further advance" piece, does not stand up well. I am hoping something in Issue 20 addresses this. In particular, the final fight against Recluse is a showcase of how incredibly broken unlimited inspirations are. When potions/inspirations no longer "assist" the fight but instead "define" it, you've got a broken system. Broken systems can be fine--but not as center pieces.
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Originally Posted by Griff Mender
So, and correct me if I'm wrong here since im a simple cubicle monkey and not a neuro-physiologist or whatever, but there are people out there who cannot enjoy something if there is a possibility of loss? So if it's only enjoyable if it's easy then how does anything in that kind of person's life have any worth? God, I feel sorry for them. Seriously. No sarcasm there. Just pity. One of the most enjoyable things I run into this game are intense situations like the STF or Apex TF. Where it isnt a foregone conclusion how the fight will turn out. I mostly run a perma PA ill/rad with a very respectable build and the vast majority of game content doesnt challenge me. I really enjoy running up on GW or LR with the knowledge that I very well may get my can handed to me. That it would make someone unhappy or ruin their game experience to possibly lose that single encounter when they steamroll 99% of the game content just doesnt make sense to me. But you said our brains work differently. I can accept that. And be grateful.
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I highlighted a portion of your statement to draw attention to the main place we differ. Part of my issue with the STF and "challenge" in general is that these challenges feel built to deal with overpowered characters like the Ill/Rad you mentioned. I feel like if you want more challenge, it's already ready available in the dozens of combos that aren't among the best at minimizing the game's challenges. The reason the game feels so easy to you is the design of AVs severely penalizes some characters and greatly rewards others.
I do happen to like the Apex Task Force, but that's because it breaks the rules a little bit and lets a few different sets shine. IMO if they want to introduce more "challenge" they should find some way for AVs to get around the cheesiness of Illusion Control as a whole.
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I probably didn't explain it correctly (though I'm sure such people do exist); it's not really so much that hey can't enjoy it if there's a possibility of failure, but more that they feel the pain of failure more intensely, and that the thrill of overcoming the challenge doesn't give them the same "buzz". |
Originally Posted by Griff Mender
there are people out there who cannot enjoy something if there is a possibility of loss?
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Extroverted brains are wired to really run off dopamine - the "excitement" hormone. Introverted brains, however, are wired for acetylcholine - the "reflection" hormone.
So extroverts are driven to seek out thrills and challenges to get their dopamine flowing (introverts doing the same things tend to feel overwhelmed and overstimulated; they are more sensitive to dopamine and thus require less of it) while introverts are apt to seek out reflection and contemplation (which probably explains why I love looking over character builds as much, or possibly even more, than actually playing the game itself.)
What is an exciting and inspiring challenge for an extrovert is going to be an overwhelming experience for an introvert.
(And I want to be clear that I don't want to take those challenges away from the extroverts; just not force the introverts into them.)
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I just tend to pick up and go with whoever is around.
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I can go with some of that. But my question to you is that how many characters out there do you see that arent on par with the Ill/Rad? What about the vast majority of well built scrappers? Veats? Any of the amazing controller builds I've seen you post? Even Warshades? Heck even defenders can solo AVs and GMs nowadays with cold or traps. The people who are stressing about the STF this week are people who want their tier 3 or better alpha boost. People who care about that are probably also running builds on par with my Ill/rad if not better. (definitely better if we are talking fights against large groups of enemies which is a weak point for ill/rads). Do i want to see changes to AV behavior similar to GW, LR, and BM? For sure. Spice it up. But IMO saying that these challenges exist based on a few AT combos that are "overpowered" in a game where every AT is powerful (cept for maybe my poor poor PB...sigh) is wrong. My Ill/rad is no better than my wife's DM/SD scrapper, or my buddies Crab Spider, or any of those just plain sweet looking troller builds I've seen you post. And it's not cheesy to be just as good as everyone else.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I highlighted a portion of your statement to draw attention to the main place we differ. Part of my issue with the STF and "challenge" in general is that these challenges feel built to deal with overpowered characters like the Ill/Rad you mentioned. I feel like if you want more challenge, it's already ready available in the dozens of combos that aren't among the best at minimizing the game's challenges. The reason the game feels so easy to you is the design of AVs severely penalizes some characters and greatly rewards others.
I do happen to like the Apex Task Force, but that's because it breaks the rules a little bit and lets a few different sets shine. IMO if they want to introduce more "challenge" they should find some way for AVs to get around the cheesiness of Illusion Control as a whole. |
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I am, in every way, clinically, an introvert. I always have been. Even by the definitions you have been throwing around, I am in introvert.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Our brains don't give us the same charge from excitement and thrill that yours do. We're different. You really need to get used to it.
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You are using introversion like weapon against game changes that have nothing to do with it.
Don't like teaming, fine. Don't like TF's, fine. Don't like gated content, fine. Argue against those things all you like.
Being introverted has nothing to do with that.
I have notices on multiple characters, all from PUG's and I am introverted.
While I will readily concede that there are people who, because of brain chemistry, CANNOT team, for any reason, labeling that small minority people as simply introverted is doing pretty much everyone involved a dis-service.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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*insert Sparta joke here*
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Originally Posted by Protonic_Flux
This is SUCK!
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The Bacon Compels You.
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I am using brain chemistry to explain why some people might not like to team (in the face of a plethora of arguments from extroverts about how we just need to give it a chance, or get out of our shells, or suck it up and get over it). |
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
While I will readily concede that there are people who, because of brain chemistry, CANNOT team
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I have NEVER claimed that introversion made it impossible to team. I really don't know why you think that's what I'm saying at all. It's not even close to a message I have ever tried to convey.
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Originally Posted by Pinkpup
So once again, I learn the lesson with STF... you need to pick the proper mix of powers and/or take the time to get the temp powers that can help.
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Originally Posted by Miyabi
Except that it's anti-design to exclude 90% of the playerbase and punish them for not playing specific sets. In an MMO environment, your designs have to encompass and allow for flexibility and chaos. Buffed Recluse and Ghost Widow on the STF are great examples of bad designs that slap players for not falling into a specific niche (Defense softcap in this case).
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These statements are factually incorrect. You don't need to pick the proper mix of powersets/ATs.
Game design doesn't exclude anybody from these tasks. Inspirations make up for any holes in the build. If somebody chooses not to use the tools available to them, it is completely their fault.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...