drops versus clearing or not clearing missions
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-01-03 08:32 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
There was a cargo map a while back where you could trick the RNG into always dropping the same things at the same amount of defeats, regardless of which mob you attacked. I'd lean towards drops being tied to defeats, that's how most games do it anyway.
It would seem to me that in a relatively random distribution it wouldn't matter if you cleared a mission or not, nor if drops are determined at spawning or at death ; the number of drops you'd be missing would be proportionally equal as the time you saved, unless you'd be thinking of some pretty complicated system like "you have to kill 90% (or any other arbitrary percentage) of the enemies in the map to get a purple drop", which I'm pretty sure isn't true based on my own drops.
Honestly, the times I've seen myself getting the most purples, is when I'm up against Rikti.
I stealthed every single RWZ mission, got purple drops from the few mobs around glowies, even got one for killing an object.
It's just RNG when mobs are defeated, imo.
I already did the basic response to this particular question here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...97&postcount=5
So yes, this is going to be a repeat.
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The random number generator is random.|
Originally Posted by Soul_Stormer
i'm not sure if there is a way to test it, but are the drops in a mission tied to the defeat or the spawning of enemies?
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The random number generator only rolls on enemy defeat.
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| the reason i wonder is that some people are complaining about not getting shard or purple drops, and it would make sense to me if they were tied to the spawning of the enemies |
The more enemies a player defeats in a mission, the more times the random number generator rolls.
Sometimes the random number generator gives a desired reward.
Most of the times the random number generator does not give a desired reward.
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| ... i.e. some people are missing drops because they aren't clearing missions? |
At this point in time there is no code evidence to suggest that the player's defeat history is tracked for drop rewards.
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i've been in the habit of clearing missions lately (as are many with the introduction of shards) so it came as a thought. has anyone ever looked into this and how did they test it if they did? |
Now, there is a trade-off in total available rewards. Many of the game's rewards are tied to event completion rather than the random number generator. Alpha-Merits, Regular Merits, and Task Force Specific Incarnate Salvage stand as examples of these event completion rewards.
Assuming defeats per second are equivalent, a team that clears every map in an event are going to get far less total rewards compared to teams that hit the enemies they need to hit and just get on with that event.
A team that takes 3 or so hours to clear an LGTF is going to get far less total rewards than a team that didn't clear an LGTF, but ran an LGTF, an ITF, and maybe a Dr. Khan in the same amount of time.
i appreciate the lengthy response, but its good to know that it can be summed up as:
here's the link, we've tested it, drops are based off of defeats not spawning.
the rest i can extrapolate.
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be glad I got in here before Arcanaville :P|
Originally Posted by Soul_Stormer
i appreciate the lengthy response, but its good to know that it can be summed up as:
here's the link, we've tested it, drops are based off of defeats not spawning. the rest i can extrapolate. |
We'd still be waiting for her to finish the mathematical analysis!
i'd figure that she would have already done it with a comprehensive analysis ready and waiting 
.
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Id rather read WHATEVER Arcana puts out that the garbage you talk about Je.
let me guess, the link you provided was your own quote.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Fortunately, this one will be quick.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
be glad I got in here before Arcanaville :P
We'd still be waiting for her to finish the mathematical analysis! |
Your calculations overlook two important qualifiers. One: if I remember correctly each kill has a chance to drop a shard for every member of the team. In a full team of eight, this means your calculations could be off by a factor of eight. Two: it doesn't factor in the time to set up a task force. It can often be a significant amount of time factored into the total time to run a task force during which you aren't earning anything.
Sanity check time: if we factor in your factor of eight error, it should actually take only about 2.5 minutes to earn a shard for each 2.5 minutes that a full task force is engaged in combat. Perhaps a bit more, because a team doesn't always have perfect kill synergy like that. Factoring in time to move between spawns, I'd say in a full team with a lot of offense blitzing the critters you should be earning a shard about once every three to five minutes of task force time, not counting end of task force rewards depending on how much of a steamroller you're on. That actually sounds about right to me.
So including the time to organize it if you can complete a task force in about thirty to forty minutes, you might do better stealthing it. Otherwise, go nuts and kill everything in your path. Its probably better.
But not so much better its worth fretting over. Just being on a task force is a bigger benefit to you than any possible benefit you could gain by debating task force strategy, due to shard drop mechanics**. I keep hearing people claim to see players quit teams that won't do it "the right way." These players cannot possibly be gaining anything from that act except looking like ***-hats.
** My memory is a bit fuzzy on shard drop mechanics, but the last Hami raid I was at I received 10 shards including the four at the end. That's six shards for me personally due to mito defeats. 72 total mitos and about thirty raiders suggests more than 180 shards dropped for 72 kills, assuming I was average. That's consistent with my recollection of each defeat having a chance to drop a shard per member of the team, because that's more than one shard per defeat.
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I'm not entirely sure on this, but I'm pretty sure the random number generator works on team defeats to begin with. I get recipes and salvage drops on TF's for mobs that I haven't touched. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Fortunately, this one will be quick.
Your calculations overlook two important qualifiers. One: if I remember correctly each kill has a chance to drop a shard for every member of the team. |
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| In a full team of eight, this means your calculations could be off by a factor of eight. Two: it doesn't factor in the time to set up a task force. It can often be a significant amount of time factored into the total time to run a task force during which you aren't earning anything. |
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Think what Arcana meant by that was that a shard is 8 times more likely to drop on a team. Whereas most stuff, i think, works by team defeats but is actually has a chance to drop split between everyone on the team, i think (really not 100% sure though). It's also likely ive misunderstood Arcanaville. (which happens alot because his[her?] numbers are way to much for meh tiny little brain)
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Originally Posted by je_saist
I'm not entirely sure on this, but I'm pretty sure the random number generator works on team defeats to begin with. I get recipes and salvage drops on TF's for mobs that I haven't touched.
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Every time an enemy is defeated, each teammate has the potential to get a shard.
Every time an enemy is defeated, one teammate has the potential to get a drop, for each type of non-shard drop.
This means that, in a case of extreme luck, a single defeat by a team of eight can drop an enhancement, an inspiration, a pool A recipe, a pool E recipe, a temporary power recipe, a piece of salvage, and eight shards.
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*looks out the window, sees someone running down the street after saist yelling "Hey! You! Gimme back mah numbers!" *
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Again, I didn't do the original calculations. I just borrowed somebody's elses numbers and ran from there.
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But you were the only one who got one on that particular defeat. For normal drops it's one roll (per category) per team defeat - 1 purple roll divided by 8 members, 1 temp power roll per 8 enemies, etc. For shards it's one roll per character per team defeat. One defeated 50 minion can make 1 purple, but it can make up to 8 shards.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
I'm not entirely sure on this, but I'm pretty sure the random number generator works on team defeats to begin with. I get recipes and salvage drops on TF's for mobs that I haven't touched.
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Short answer: Random is random.
Long answer: Used to be a bug where you could determine when the next drop was a purple on a specific mission/map/mob but that was an exploit and now it is fixed. Unless it wasn't fully fixed. So now it's pretty random.
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The bug was that someone got the bright idea long ago to write their own random number generator that was not so random. pohsyb fixed that one a while ago and the drop generator should now be very random and randomly seeded, so no more predictable drop sequences.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Short answer: Random is random.
Long answer: Used to be a bug where you could determine when the next drop was a purple on a specific mission/map/mob but that was an exploit and now it is fixed. Unless it wasn't fully fixed. So now it's pretty random. |
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As one of the testers/abusers of that but I beg to differ.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Short answer: Random is random.
Long answer: Used to be a bug where you could determine when the next drop was a purple on a specific mission/map/mob but that was an exploit and now it is fixed. Unless it wasn't fully fixed. So now it's pretty random. |
There was no way to know what would be rolled just the category.
in 30 seconds I could guarantee 2 enhancements, 3 recipes and 6 salvage from the map. there was no knowledge of which would drop.
Also in regards to super luck there could actually be 24 shards dropped.
we have accounts of a single mob dropping 3.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
A team that takes 3 or so hours to clear an LGTF is going to get far less total rewards than a team that didn't clear an LGTF, but ran an LGTF, an ITF, and maybe a Dr. Khan in the same amount of time.
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While I agree with all you said.. I do have one small issue. I have been on Kill all TFs recently since shards started to drop. I did am ITF in about 1:40 and even after we defeated romulus we stayed and wiped out the troops in the towers and on the walls. I did a similar LGFT (defeat everything we can find) and that took all of around 1:30 to 1:40. What in heaven's name was a team doing, aside from dying repeatedly taking on Hamidon which can happen, that caused them to take 3 full hours to complete any of the 6 TF/SF every 50 level is rushing to get on since shards started to drop? LOL Oh and by the way while the Random Number Generator may be random on that ITF I got 11 shards and a Purple Drop and on the LGTF 8 more shards. Now how many shards dropped on that trio of TFs you mentioned that everyone rushed through and left mobs standing everywhere? I've been on those types as well and trust me the numbers are much lower. 4, 5 maybe 6 shards.. The speed run teams claim they make out because they can get actual components faster.. true but then again at best if you run an ITF, LGFT, BSF, LRSF, STF and KTF you can get 6 common components .. and then no matter how many more times you run them you can't get anymore for 18-20 hours ( I forget the exact time limit). Not that that is bad by any means.. 6 components and lets say 4 shards per TF, for an average, so they also picked up 24 or more shards (which equals another 6 components). Let's say they managed to do each in around or less than 1 hour and just say 6 hours maximum. Anyone on those teams should easily have their Alpha slotted with an uncommon with shards and components to spare.
Of course I picked up 19 shards and 2 components on those two "Kill all" Tfs in under 4 hours and using Vanguard Merits to buy a Gr'ai Matter I also went from no enhancer to having an uncommon in my Alpha Slot. So both systems work and frankly from all the TFS i have run, no I don't collect numbers, it seems to me that shard drops are in some way tied to the number of enemies you defeat. Regular salvage, purple recipes and the rest just happen when they happen and i don't even worry about them .. just enjoy the surpises when they come.
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I agree totally with this post.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
While I agree with all you said.. I do have one small issue. I have been on Kill all TFs recently since shards started to drop. I did am ITF in about 1:40 and even after we defeated romulus we stayed and wiped out the troops in the towers and on the walls. I did a similar LGFT (defeat everything we can find) and that took all of around 1:30 to 1:40. What in heaven's name was a team doing, aside from dying repeatedly taking on Hamidon which can happen, that caused them to take 3 full hours to complete any of the 6 TF/SF every 50 level is rushing to get on since shards started to drop? LOL Oh and by the way while the Random Number Generator may be random on that ITF I got 11 shards and a Purple Drop and on the LGTF 8 more shards. Now how many shards dropped on that trio of TFs you mentioned that everyone rushed through and left mobs standing everywhere? I've been on those types as well and trust me the numbers are much lower. 4, 5 maybe 6 shards.. The speed run teams claim they make out because they can get actual components faster.. true but then again at best if you run an ITF, LGFT, BSF, LRSF, STF and KTF you can get 6 common components .. and then no matter how many more times you run them you can't get anymore for 18-20 hours ( I forget the exact time limit). Not that that is bad by any means.. 6 components and lets say 4 shards per TF, for an average, so they also picked up 24 or more shards (which equals another 6 components). Let's say they managed to do each in around or less than 1 hour and just say 6 hours maximum. Anyone on those teams should easily have their Alpha slotted with an uncommon with shards and components to spare.
Of course I picked up 19 shards and 2 components on those two "Kill all" Tfs in under 4 hours and using Vanguard Merits to buy a Gr'ai Matter I also went from no enhancer to having an uncommon in my Alpha Slot. So both systems work and frankly from all the TFS i have run, no I don't collect numbers, it seems to me that shard drops are in some way tied to the number of enemies you defeat. Regular salvage, purple recipes and the rest just happen when they happen and i don't even worry about them .. just enjoy the surpises when they come. |
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A fast team that takes 3 hours to do ITF, Kahn and STF wouldn't really be considered fast by today's standards.
In that 3 hours you benchmarked a fast team could knock out ITF, Kahn, STF, LRSF, Apex and Tin Mage, and have time to step out for dinner and walk the dog. Fast teams really are fast.
The good part about fast teams is that no one person or team has to commit a 3 hour block of time to get things done. They can do 1 or 5 TFs or take a break and come back later. I'd feel bad if the team is rolling stuff and I had to take an hour out for a kid break or some chore right in the middle of a long TF.
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And I picked up 9 shards doing those two TFs and we did the kill all version as well.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Of course I picked up 19 shards and 2 components on those two "Kill all" Tfs in under 4 hours and using Vanguard Merits to buy a Gr'ai Matter I also went from no enhancer to having an uncommon in my Alpha Slot. So both systems work and frankly from all the TFS i have run, no I don't collect numbers, it seems to me that shard drops are in some way tied to the number of enemies you defeat. Regular salvage, purple recipes and the rest just happen when they happen and i don't even worry about them .. just enjoy the surpises when they come.
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Seems the RNG truly is random when it randomly determines that the random mob should randomly drop a shard. Unlike the recipe that gets randomly distributed to a random character on the team.
I hope this post wasn't too random for you.
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Assuming you're in it for the shards, this is bad advice.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
I already did the basic response to this particular question here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...97&postcount=5
So yes, this is going to be a repeat. The random number generator is random. The random number generator only rolls on enemy defeat. The random number generator is random. The more enemies a player defeats in a mission, the more times the random number generator rolls. Sometimes the random number generator gives a desired reward. Most of the times the random number generator does not give a desired reward. The random number generator is random. All the random number generator cares about is the defeat of an opponent. At this point in time there is no code evidence to suggest that the player's defeat history is tracked for drop rewards. How did I test this? Dual Boxing, Triple Boxing, and Quadboxing various AE arcs, Ouro Arcs, Task Forces, and regular story missions. Now, there is a trade-off in total available rewards. Many of the game's rewards are tied to event completion rather than the random number generator. Alpha-Merits, Regular Merits, and Task Force Specific Incarnate Salvage stand as examples of these event completion rewards. Assuming defeats per second are equivalent, a team that clears every map in an event are going to get far less total rewards compared to teams that hit the enemies they need to hit and just get on with that event. A team that takes 3 or so hours to clear an LGTF is going to get far less total rewards than a team that didn't clear an LGTF, but ran an LGTF, an ITF, and maybe a Dr. Khan in the same amount of time. |
For shards has anyone tried this doing this instead? How about a team with 1 level 50 incarnate and the rest lowbies. Do a regular mission map set for 8 with 7 lowbies. Currently what I been hearing on the complaints is that the solo drop rate on shards is drastically different than whats on teams. Well what happens if you team but there is only 1 valid person who can get shards. This would be a nice test to run if I had 7 pcs and 8 accounts.
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While you could test it if you want, the current understanding is that every member of a team gets to roll for a potential shard drop on every kill that the team makes. I have personally seen more than one person say they got a shard drop from the same AV kill, so it's at least partly true. This is different from other sorts of drops, and explains why teams do much better in general. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
For shards has anyone tried this doing this instead? How about a team with 1 level 50 incarnate and the rest lowbies. Do a regular mission map set for 8 with 7 lowbies. Currently what I been hearing on the complaints is that the solo drop rate on shards is drastically different than whats on teams. Well what happens if you team but there is only 1 valid person who can get shards. This would be a nice test to run if I had 7 pcs and 8 accounts.
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For most other sorts of drops, you're effectively looking at ((team kills per time) / (team size)), and so you're only really benefiting from any combined leverage effects (such as a kin and a damage dealer as a duo doing more than twice their individual kill rate). For shards, it's simply (team kills per time), as everyone gets an independent chance on every kill; a team which can kill several times as many foes per unit time will give *everyone* that many more shards per unit time on average.
Additionally, the drop rate for higher-grade foes is substantially better; roughly 1/1000 for minions, 1/150 for lieutenants, and 1/50 for bosses, and believed to be even better odds for EBs and AVs (*). With the exception of certain specific sorts of farming builds and strategies, teams will usually both face a higher mix of bosses and upward, and plow through them more effectively.
tl;dr: Current best info is that there's no specific "solo modifier" on the drop rate, it's just directly tied to the number and quality of enemies the entire team defeats per unit time. Most competent teams can kill both more and better enemies that most soloers, and therefore do better for shards.
(*) My personal guess is that EBs are around 1/25 and AVs around 1/12, for a halving progression; anecdotally I've had enough shards drop from AVs that I'm pretty sure the drop rate is substantially better than 1/50.
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i'm not sure if there is a way to test it, but are the drops in a mission tied to the defeat or the spawning of enemies?
the reason i wonder is that some people are complaining about not getting shard or purple drops, and it would make sense to me if they were tied to the spawning of the enemies... i.e. some people are missing drops because they aren't clearing missions? i've been in the habit of clearing missions lately (as are many with the introduction of shards) so it came as a thought.
has anyone ever looked into this and how did they test it if they did?
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