Swinglines!


Anti_Proton

 

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Originally Posted by Demobot View Post
Maybe I'm pointing out the obvious here, but: [red stapler].
Wha?

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Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
...and then viola! [...] How bizarre.
Is it now?


(I couldn't resist.)



 

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Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
Than tell me this, how is it that said fire tank can stand in a body of water WITH his shields still active?
You've never seen flame under water? No, a match won't do it, but other sorts of combustion will.

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OH oh! Let's not forget the electric armor toon that steps in the water. That's just a disaster waiting to happen.
They're generating electricity. It dissipates a short distance from them. This is a disaster... how?

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Or how about epic battles taking place within office buildings with all the furniture being absolutely unphased by the battle. Oh, and my personal favorite, completing a mission, getting the next, and then viola! Your next mission is in the VERY same spot. How bizarre.
Game limitations. Yes, I'd love to see everything work like the mayhem missions, but it can't right now. And coming back to a mission in the same spot is called "the entrance is selected randomly."

I'll counter that the "It looks ridiculous" is the developer stance for sometimes delaying, sometimes not implementing at all, some items. Water "blast" didn't look proper for water, so we don't have it, but what they could do was given to energy. We don't have permanent backpacks/jetpacks because they're not satisfied with how they looked on all body types and scales. We don't have an underwater zone because of everything that would have to be done to make it "right" (or "close enough to right.")

And we don't have swinglines for the same reason.


 

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
If you can cite me an example of Spider-Man swinging across a mid-west cornfield or an ocean maybe I'd reconsider.
I have actually seen this. More specifically, he was web-slinging across some farmland near (I think) Kansas.


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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Game limitations. Yes, I'd love to see everything work like the mayhem missions, but it can't right now. And coming back to a mission in the same spot is called "the entrance is selected randomly."
See. You're okay with this game limitation, but not okay with swinglines?

You're okay with Mercs coming down on repel lines from no where?

You're okay with manholes appearing in office buildings so Thugs can enter?

You're okay with the Fire Blaster throwing a Fire Blast, that doesn't hurt any nearby players?

You're okay with weapons appearing out of thin air?

But swinglines to nowhere is the gamebreaker? o.O

That all said, if it's a game limitation. Okay.

But the condition that it would be a swingline to nowhere, as being the problem with the power, just seems odd.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
See. You're okay with this game limitation, but not okay with swinglines?

You're okay with Mercs coming down on repel lines from no where?

You're okay with manholes appearing in office buildings so Thugs can enter?

You're okay with the Fire Blaster throwing a Fire Blast, that doesn't hurt any nearby players?

You're okay with weapons appearing out of thin air?

But swinglines to nowhere is the gamebreaker? o.O

That all said, if it's a game limitation. Okay.

But the condition that it would be a swingline to nowhere, as being the problem with the power, just seems odd.
Game and reality mechanics versus 'Looking Cool'

And yes, I'm about 95% sure it was cited by a dev as being 'bloody hard to make work right'. I mean, stuff with physics enabled lines seems to be a pain (whips, anyone?) and this engine is pretty damn old.

Really, given all the hassle both code wise and possibly legal wise (thank you, Marvel...) it comes down to a case of 'is it worth it?' The answer seems to be no.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
and this engine is pretty damn old

And here we come full-circle. This is the limitation of any "really" new features.


"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

 

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Ironically I have nothing against the idea that -some- swingline systems could be based on some kind of gravity-defying magic/tech that anchors to "thin air". I actually had a Thief who had a magic item in a D&D campaign some years ago that worked just like that.

My main problem with something like that for this game is that my suspension of disbelief is not quite big enough to assume EVERYONE who would use a swingline in this game would have access to such magical/techy versions of them. Sure a hero with a magic background or a "billionaire vigilante" background might reasonably have a magic and or high tech equivalent. But I just don't want to have to assume every hero/villain is using something so relatively specific just to "explain" it. What if, for the sake of argument, I actually wanted to make a Spider-Man clone and explain his swingline as a web filament. Using the implementation that ALL swinglines can attach to "thin air" doesn't even fit for this kind of character - webs don't "stick" to thin air do they?

As funny as it sounds the idea that people can for example fly or shoot eye beams (using any rationalization you want to dream up) just seems that much more "believable" to me in this game than the idea that ANYONE using a swingline must be using a version of one that can miraculously attach to thin air. Sure some super-powered people might have special swinglines that can do that, but every swingline in the game world working like that? Nope, can't quite accept it. Sorry. *shrugs*


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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
And nobody drowns. Besides, you can "push" yourself from the water, somewhat, as water's got a physical presence. (And there's no telling what's underwater, either.)
I still find this kind of specious argument for why Super Jump works across large bodies of water to be comical. That being said the developers have said that the game engine cannot currently support swing lines or a swinging travel power. Here's hoping that they find a work around as it would make alot of folks very happy.


^


"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

 

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Originally Posted by Reiraku View Post
I have actually seen this. More specifically, he was web-slinging across some farmland near (I think) Kansas.
He consistently swung home to his Aunt May's house in the Forest Hills area of Queens which had a shortage of skyscrapers to provide the "required" anchor points.


^


"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

 

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
What if, for the sake of argument, I actually wanted to make a Spider-Man clone and explain his swingline as a web filament. Using the implementation that ALL swinglines can attach to "thin air" doesn't even fit for this kind of character - webs don't "stick" to thin air do they?
Baby spiders, and some adult ones as well, will use their silk to travel via the wind. It's called ballooning. Basically they exude a line of silk and when the wind catches it they go for a ride. Spiders are also able to make different kinds of silk for different purposes (a line for hanging from, sticky line for webs and silk sheets for wrapping up prey) so it's not beyond the realm of belief that a Spider-Man clone could create web lines tipped with parachutes that were just large enough to complete a single swing arc.


^


"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

 

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Originally Posted by McBoo View Post
Baby spiders, and some adult ones as well, will use their silk to travel via the wind. It's called ballooning. Basically they exude a line of silk and when the wind catches it they go for a ride. Spiders are also able to make different kinds of silk for different purposes (a line for hanging from, sticky line for webs and silk sheets for wrapping up prey) so it's not beyond the realm of belief that a Spider-Man clone could create web lines tipped with parachutes that were just large enough to complete a single swing arc.


^
Please for the love of all things reasonable: The physics involved to let a man-sized human to do what you're suggesting would probably require "web parachutes" to be like 100s of square meters wide, which would make -them- weigh even more. This doesn't even mention the gusts of wind involved for the masses we're talk about.

Just because you can cite a fringe real world example doesn't mean it has any relevance here. I'm beginning to wonder when this thread is going to start debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...


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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
Please for the love of all things reasonable: The physics involved to let a man-sized human to do what you're suggesting would probably require "web parachutes" to be like 100s of square meters wide, which would make -them- weigh even more. This doesn't even mention the gusts of wind involved for the masses we're talk about.

Just because you can cite a fringe real world example doesn't mean it has any relevance here. I'm beginning to wonder when this thread is going to start debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
Two if they're grinding.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
Please for the love of all things reasonable: The physics involved to let a man-sized human to do what you're suggesting would probably require "web parachutes" to be like 100s of square meters wide, which would make -them- weigh even more. This doesn't even mention the gusts of wind involved for the masses we're talk about.
The physics are no more ludicrous then those involved in driving a man-sized human hundreds of feet into the air from the water using only human shaped legs. Or the physics being ignored when a man-sized human hits the water from a great height at a high rate of speed and a steep angle and bounces off the surface as if it was a trampoline.

Also bear in mind that Spidey has hastily created a web parachute on more than one occasion.


^


"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Two if they're grinding.
Hey Macarangel!


^


"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
We NEED them as a travel power!
We do? Never noticed.


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I'd love for this power to be in the game, but like many I'd want there to be some sort of height limitation depending on the local geography. Basically, I'd say you couldn't swing higher than any nearby structure (how far away that structure must be is another decision).

Swinging direction shouldn't be influenced by the position of nearby structure. You can swing in any direction (hey, just like you can change direction, even full 360, when superjumping), but you can't go higher than local structures.

I wouldn't care if your swingline didn't actually attach to any nearby structure, just so long as it sort of pointed toward one of them (even have a limited visual distance, sort of fading after a 100 feet or so...).

Finally, if there are no nearby structures of any kind, your 'swing' powers just lets you jump as if you had Ninja Run (and you instantly start swinging again once you are near enough to a structure)

The above shouldn't be unsatisfactory except to the most OCD of us. Appearances do matter, but the above should be good enough. It's at least as good as Mastermind minions coming in from Metal Openings or Manholes in floors, or on Motorcycles, or Helicopter Droplines, even when inside caves, office buildings, etc. or Tankers pulling a chunks of rocks from metal girders for throwing.


 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
We NEED them as a travel power!
why, so everyone can look stupid swinging from....what, the skybox?


naw.


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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
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I'm also still waiting to hear why swinging should be dismissed on the "looks silly" basis, yet all the equally-or-more-silly-looking uses of existing powers should get a free pass.
Because the devs already responded that it would be too much work and it would look stupid.
That doesn't answer the question at all. I asked why swinging should be dismissed on the basis of looking silly when other powers are not. Technical problems, while valid in and of themselves, are beside this particular point.

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
So you guys can get mad at us all you want, call us unimaginative, whatever helps you vent your frustration.
Nobody in this thread has showed any signs of being mad or frustrated, and you know it. Don't invent states of mind and project them onto people just because they disagree with you. It's dishonest, it's immature, and it should be beneath you.

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
The devs already made up their minds on this.
Sorry, but that is not the conversation-ender that you want it to be. The devs can and do change their minds from time to time. You already acknowledged that with regards to Power Customization, even though you were trying to dismiss that truth as a "whine" due to the fact that it undermines your position.


 

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Shatter, when the devs say something would take forever to get it to look right and not look stupid, that is them saying it won't happen in this version of the game.


 

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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
Shatter, when the devs say something would take forever to get it to look right and not look stupid, that is them saying it won't happen in this version of the game.
I've already stated that I acknowledge that the technical problems make swinging unlikely to happen. There's nothing wrong with addressing the other commonly-accepted reasons as well, which is what I've been doing here.

That aside, we have seen irrefutable evidence that the developers occasionally revisit what is still on the "too much work" list and what isn't, so keeping such ideas alive absolutely has value. In other words, your statement needs a "probably" in there before the "won't". This doesn't mean that we should simply dismiss technical issues, but it does mean that said issues are not automatically a reason to declare subjects a lost cause.


 

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So you would rather they spend all of there developement time trying to get swinging to look right and not give us more content which would be a lot easier to do? I don't see that happening. And honestly, no, there is no reason to keep up with this idea, or any of the others like AT respecs or more storage, that the devs have already come out and said no to.


 

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Originally Posted by Shatterjack View Post
That aside, we have seen irrefutable evidence that the developers occasionally revisit what is still on the "too much work" list and what isn't, so keeping such ideas alive absolutely has value. In other words, your statement needs a "probably" in there before the "won't". This doesn't mean that we should simply dismiss technical issues, but it does mean that said issues are not automatically a reason to declare subjects a lost cause.
There is a huge difference between the devs saying, "We'd like to do this but it will require a lot of time and resources" and "It would take years and look stupid."


 

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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
So you would rather they spend all of there developement time trying to get swinging to look right and not give us more content which would be a lot easier to do?
Please do not put words in my mouth. Support for a suggested feature does not imply a belief that said feature should be developed to the exclusion of all other content.

You're also not accounting for the fact that not every feature needs the undivided attention of the entire development team, not even if it takes a lot of effort to implement. Being a software developer myself, I speak from experience when I say that some projects take a lot of time and effort to do, but don't benefit from having more than one or two people on them. Whether that too-many-cooks-in-the-kitchen aspect would apply here is something you and I could only guess at, but my point is that just because something is difficult to do doesn't necessarily mean it blocks all other development.

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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
And honestly, no, there is no reason to keep up with this idea, or any of the others like AT respecs or more storage, that the devs have already come out and said no to.
Well, first of all, there is an important difference that you're missing: AT respecs and extra storage differ from swinging in that their main problems are in the way they would affect gameplay. If it were possible to implement them right now, instantly, complete and properly QA'ed, those problems would still be deal-breakers (barring some as-yet-unseen convincing gameplay-based argument that they shouldn't be, that is).

Swinging, on the other hand, has no such issues; its problems are aesthetic and technical ones. I've acknowledged the technical ones repeatedly, and I'm saying that the aesthetic ones aren't any worse than the ones we must already put up with by necessity (and everyone else so far has been silently conceding that point by glossing over it).

Secondly, yes, there is a reason to keep up with an idea even in the face of developer dismissal. Again, we saw that with Power Customization. Positron once stated in an interview (couldn't find it unfortunately, it was around 4-5 years ago if I recall) that PC just wasn't going to happen due to the resources it would require. Obviously, that decision was later revisited, and that was in no small part because people kept asking for it. The frequent posts about the subject served as a constant reminder that the players really wanted that feature, and it reached a point where they said "Okay, it's worth it to take the time to do this".

You might be tempted to point out that the equation had changed due to additional resource infusion by NCSoft, but that doesn't weaken my point. Once the devs had those resources it was the constant demands for PC that influenced them on how best to use them. A similar equation-changer may happen in the future (some blocking technical problem previously thought unsolvable turns out not to be, for instance), and if it does, I'd like them to see that swinglines are still very much wanted.

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
There is a huge difference between the devs saying, "We'd like to do this but it will require a lot of time and resources" and "It would take years and look stupid."
As I've already mentioned, "would take years" won't necessarily be true forever, and "would look stupid" has been overlooked for other powers already.


 

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Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
why, so everyone can look stupid swinging from....what, the skybox?


naw.
Well really, that's just a matter of opinion.

One can easily say many of the powers in game look stupid, and yet still use them.

Merc repelling down a cord from nowhere doesn't look stupid to you?


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