Why choose single target over AOE?
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-12-27 22:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I don't know about anyone else, but when I can 1-shot lts and pound a boss for more than half his health in one shot, that does make me feel super.
Conversely, when I play my electric melee/shield scrapper and I'm left pounding on a boss over and over until he finally goes down... well, that doesn't make me feel so super.
For everything, there is a season, and all of that. ^_~
Besides, my scrappers are built to solo 8-man spawns, which feels super no matter how long it takes. ^_^
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
When looking to the extremes, they really end up being the same.
If you're AoE focused with anemic ST, you're left with the hardest foes with the most difficult and potent powers to deal with...so you need a means to mitigate those stronger effects.
If you're ST focused with anemic AoE, you've got a big crowd swinging at your head that you'll have to deal with one by one...so you need the staying power and survivability to make it to the last guy.
Your best bet is to mix and maximize your strength with tactics. My DM/WP Stalker will just line up Shadow Maul when the foes are huddled together to help his AoE so can manage multiple foe spawns but he's way better at fighting hard targets. And my Spines/DA stalker can wipe out large spawns and ambushes really fast (and mitigate them while he does it) but going up against Bosses and EBs is *always* a chore so leans on Placate and AS heavily, sometimes even using his snipe to eliminate the rest of the spawn separately before he does.
But even on the extreme, you can simply lean on other measures to shore up your weaknesses. My Elec/Elec brute is painfully slow taking down bosses and EBs but at least they'll be drained as he's tenderizing their face. My Eng/Eng Stalker has had capped defense to everything except N.Eng/psi since like lvl 28 so it doesn't even matter there are minions swinging at him and he'll leave foes stunned while he softens them up.
But one prime advantage I find with Single Target attacks comes with the mind-set. If you're playing your AoE character and the mobs run or scatter or get KB, more likely than not you'll get all prissy and annoyed in the back of your head (some more than others). ST doesn't care where the foe is or if he's huddled with his buddies, they simply go down. No factors like movement, terrain, proximity or teammates can get in the way of that.
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I don't think ST is useless at all. I am mainly saying that the reason a full team fails to beat an AV is due to lack of buffs/debuffs because any blast/melee set would have helped. There is no blast set that has no aoe but on Stalker, there are two sets that have zero aoe (energy melee and martial arts). And of course the debate is would you rather add a MA Stalker for all ST-damage or a debuffer like Radiation for tough fights? What would you pick? Uber?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you have more ST damage, you don't need the buffs and debuffs, which are, by and large, lost lesser foes if you have meaningful AoE from even a couple of characters.
The whole point of the way things work now is that you can have a mix, and it works out well as long as you get some workable permutation. To say that single-target damage is useless, and then point out that's only because you brought enough buffs and debuffs that you don't need it... duh? |
I definitely think a mix is better than all ST or all AoE. I just don't think MA, EM and to some degree DM (I like DM a lot by the way) offer that much more to the team just because their ST-damage is a bit higher than other sets.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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-regen is a form of debuff and -resistance debuff is a form of debuff. Which part you do not agree with? |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
I disagree. Teams that fail to finish most strike forces do such because they either lack -regeneration or single target DPS, which against an AV are pretty much one and the same. Almost all other buffs and debuffs can be tossed out the window for the most part. (But -resistance makes a huge difference as well.)
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Buffs are important because without buffs, you probably may die very easily.
I guess it will be unreal to compare all ST-damage team VS all AoE-damage team because there is no way a TF team is set up like that. Most sets have a mix of ST and AoE.
I do believe, again, a mix of ST and AoE is better but if a full team fails a TF, it's more because the lack of buffs/debuffs. Either the team dies too often or not doing enough damage or reducing enough regen.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I said nothing about efficiency. The example was a dichotomy.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
With more AoE and a sturdy meatshield, a full team can usually herd more than one group and AoE the !@#$# out of them and be more efficient. This usually only applies to +0 or +1 level but with more buffs/debuffs, a full team can aoe +4 without much trouble.
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| A full team that fails to finish a tough TF is not because it lacks ST damage. It's because it lacks debuffs/buffs. If your team has decent debuffs/buffs, any Blast or Melee set can complete. You do not need Martial Art or Dark Melee to kill a hard boss. |
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In other words, as with Madam Enigma ST gets a smile when that single narrow cone manages to hit 2 enemies, and uses the one pbaoe when surounded. But it's the high single target damage that will melt the spawn more then the pbaoe usually. Madam Enigma mostly uses spin when fighting an AV/EB with tons of minions on hand too.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But one prime advantage I find with Single Target attacks comes with the mind-set. If you're playing your AoE character and the mobs run or scatter or get KB, more likely than not you'll get all prissy and annoyed in the back of your head (some more than others). ST doesn't care where the foe is or if he's huddled with his buddies, they simply go down. No factors like movement, terrain, proximity or teammates can get in the way of that.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I don't understand what you are trying to prove? Which Blast or Melee sets have zero Single Target attack? Yes, some have a bit more than the other but if you are on a full team, your ST damage is usually "good enough". What's not good enough is if you have an unbalanced team of only Melee-AT like Brute or Blaster without enough buffs/debuffs (yes, in a way stacking buffs/debuffs is too powerful in this game). |
Originally Posted by brophog02
It's all part of the damage equation. Had the team had more single target damage, it wouldn't need as many debuffs. It's very hard to look at this dichotomous example if you throw in enough variables to make it worthless. |
You are saying that as long as the team is full of ST-oriented sets like DM, EM and MA, it can beat any TF and that debuffs don't matter as much?
Your argument only makes sense if the full team ONLY uses AoE attacks which I can't imagine any full team would do.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Throw in enough -regen and/or -resist, and it doesn't matter how high or low the team's damage is. They can overcome anything. It's why teams of 8 defenders steamroll everything.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I don't understand what you are trying to prove? Which Blast or Melee sets have zero Single Target attack? Yes, some have a bit more than the other but if you are on a full team, your ST damage is usually "good enough". What's not good enough is if you have an unbalanced team of only Melee-AT like Brute or Blaster without enough buffs/debuffs (yes, in a way stacking buffs/debuffs is too powerful in this game).
You are saying that as long as the team is full of ST-oriented sets like DM, EM and MA, it can beat any TF and that debuffs don't matter as much? Your argument only makes sense if the full team ONLY uses AoE attacks which I can't imagine any full team would do. |
BUT take away those buffs and debuffs and look at just the issue of single target vs aoe damage without any outside variables. This is what brophog02 was talking about.
My claw/SR scrapper has barely any aoe. One cone that's more crowd control then true ae, one pbaoe, and one cone that's so narrow I'm extremely lucky to get 2 in it, let alone the cap of 5. This character can and does solo some pretty nasty things. Not AV's and Gm's true. But anything else is soloable.
When I made a spines/dark armor scrapper I had more aoe then single target attacks. I could destroy minions and Lt with ease. Well, minions anyway. Lt gave some trouble at times. And bosses were a HUGE pain.
Yeah, throw in debuffs and both can handle even the toughest of things. The difference is that the single target focused character can easily handle many weaker enemies, while the aoe centric character has trouble with the single hard targets. One spends more time cleaning up the 15 minions, the other spends that same length of time cleaning up the 1 or 2 bosses that survived the aoe assault.
In a team, there is likely enough buff/debuff that it wont matter what you bring. Enemies will probably be scattered enough that your aoe wont hit as many as they could too. Not to mention the team will have enough aoe to deal with hordes of enemies, even if everyone is mainly single target focused.
But then, I've been on task forces which had plenty of buff/debuff. And yet we couldn't take out the AV at the end. Why not? Because 90% of the team's damage was aoe, which tends to do lower damage per enemy. We couldn't actually overwhelm the AV's debuffed regen rate. I've been on teams fighting an AV where we had a balanced team that couldn't kill the AV. But once I switched to a single target focused character for the same team we could. I've never seen a team where switching to an aoe focused character enabled the team to finally take down the AV.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Because my characters' concepts calls for a Martial Arts Stalker, or a Necromancy Mastermind, or an Energy Assault Dominator, or a Sonic Blast Corruptor, etc. Some people don't crunch numbers, some people don't care about efficiency, some just want to bring the characters that they imagine to life.
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Originally Posted by Sgt_Hobo
Why choose single target over AOE?
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If that's true, then I suppose Stalker Spines is better than Scrapper Spines just like Stalker Elec Melee is better than the Scrapper version ^_^|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
When I made a spines/dark armor scrapper I had more aoe then single target attacks. I could destroy minions and Lt with ease. Well, minions anyway. Lt gave some trouble at times. And bosses were a HUGE pain.
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Although Spines for Stalkers will lack the constant DoT aura for higher DPS, it has burst AoE in Placate > Throw Spines which makes up for it as well as heightened ST damage to round out the set.
That said, I can't say I've ever been on a team so AoE focused that they couldn't defeat a specific AV or TF. The difference is, IMO, speed. ST attacks recharge faster on average and animate quicker (and there are more of them) while it's the opposite for AoEs. If you were suspended from using ST and only had to rely on AoE, yeah you might not be able to defeat some hard targets. But there aren't any sets without ST. The ST oriented sets would just have a speedier/safer go at said targets while the reverse is, AoEs are speedier/safer in crowds.
I suppose an equally important question is what's more dangerous, Bosses/Big-bads? Or crowds?
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Originally Posted by Rikis
Because my characters' concepts calls for a Martial Arts Stalker, or a Necromancy Mastermind, or an Energy Assault Dominator, or a Sonic Blast Corruptor, etc. Some people don't crunch numbers, some people don't care about efficiency, some just want to bring the characters that they imagine to life.
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I tend to think of the look and feel of a character then try to simulate that. AoE or ST doesn't often come into the equation...now I do think of melee vs range when thinking of these concepts...it's why I haven't created my 'martial arts pressure-point debuff' character because really, only a defender of some sort with a slew of melee/martial arts attacks would work.
If they end up making an AT or set that fits that theme, it doesn't really matter if it's ST or AoE
My Rad/Sonic Defender has exactly ONE AoE attack (Howl). On teams he mostly debuffs and takes a few potshots here and there.
However, once we get to the big bad, he switches gears and turns into a single target demon. All debuffing stops except for his toggle debuffs, and he just starts slinging Shriek-Scream-Shriek-Shout until the AV drops (which usually doesn't take very long with him on the team)
Incidentally, I soloed Kraken the other day with the same character. It was a LONG fight, but I took him down using no temp powers and very few inspirations. If I didn't have the single target damage output I do, that would have been impossible.
Of course, my particular defender is built with the specific intention of being a "big game hunter", so single target is the way to go if you're doing that.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I tend to favor ST sets... And as some have mentioned before, Illusion Control actually has no AoE damage attacks. The pets work for crowd control, and damage multiple targets, but almost all their attacks are ST. (Phantasm has a single cone attack that is pretty narrow...) Which means that they have the benefits of AoE and ST without changing up. Stalker KM only has one AoE and it is the fastest toon I have for taking down bosses and EBs. Haven't tried any AVs yet, but I fear he may be slower at that than my scrappers...
If you want to feel super, two-shotting a +1 Fake Nemesis is a good start...
So, actually I am reading this thread and coming up with the opposite question. Why focus on AoE? AoE-centric toons are a dime a dozen, but when the team needs a specific boss or other trouble-maker taken out before the battle even starts, nothing is better than a stalker...
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Stalkers specialize in taking down the single hard target, regardless of the primary. Meanwhile scrappers get for single target...|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
If that's true, then I suppose Stalker Spines is better than Scrapper Spines just like Stalker Elec Melee is better than the Scrapper version ^_^
Although Spines for Stalkers will lack the constant DoT aura for higher DPS, it has burst AoE in Placate > Throw Spines which makes up for it as well as heightened ST damage to round out the set. |
Barb Swipe, which still uses the old animation from the Claws swipe. Which means long animation for low damage
Lunge, decent attack but it's one of your few single target attacks
Then at level 18 (I think) you get Impale. And that's the last of your ST attacks. Ripper at level 26 could be considered ST due to it's really small cone. But that's the same animation as Evicirate, which is commonly acknowledged as the worst DPA attack in claws or spines. Other then that you get a pbaoe damage toggle, a pbaoe attack, and a ranged cone attack. Spine burst is a nice aoe, but it's damage is kind of lacking for things like bosses.
Yes, spines CAN deal with bosses. But they are a huge pain due to how few good single target attacks you get.
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| I suppose an equally important question is what's more dangerous, Bosses/Big-bads? Or crowds? |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Dump one of the AoEs, grab the Rad AND the Stalker and chew through the big AVs that much faster |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
And of course the debate is would you rather add a MA Stalker for all ST-damage or a debuffer like Radiation for tough fights? What would you pick?
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Given the advent of some new encounters that are not static tank and spank, I'm hoping for a future tf/sf where the focus is more on the boss fights, with hard single targets that don't just hit hard and take a lot to kill, but which require some dancing to down properly.|
Originally Posted by Sgt_Hobo
The more I play this game, the more I feel like it focuses mostly, if not entirely, on AOE centered characters. It seems to me that it's far more rewarding to invest in a character that can wipe out huge groups all at once than a character with more of a single target focus. Almost everything I read on these boards seems agree with me. Heck, it might have even been the place where I got the idea from.
I'm really not trying to bash single target powersets or archetypes, but at the moment I just don't see why anyone would chose a build such as Dark Melee instead of fire or electric melee. Yes, dark melee does offer more control which helps with survivability, but if staying alive isn't a concern, would there be any other reason to chose dark melee over fire or electric? It just seems that it's much more rewarding to have AOE characters. You can tear through huge groups in very short amounts of time, as opposed to killing targets one by one. And yes, there are EB's and AV's that appear, but do they show up enough to really make having a single target build worth it? Look at the FOTM of the month builds too. They're almost all AOE heavy. Fire/Dark Corruptors, electric/shield scrappers, ill/rad controllers, Robots masterminds. They all have huge amounts of AOE, group-destroying powers. Maybe I'm missing something here (I assume I am), but every time I roll a character, I feel like I should make sure I have good AOE abilities before I go any further. If I don't I feel like it won't take me very far. So, can anyone tell me what the advantages are to single target builds? |
Untill then rev up the elec/shield, fire/psi etc.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
As a "Gotta hit 50 fast", single-target is...sub-optimal.
As "My character has power X that they got from origin Y", you go with whatever fits.
As "Hmm...can I make this work?", you go with what fits.
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Yes, there is. It's call an average scrapper or brute. Stalkers are inferior to both when it comes to sustained damage. Stalkers can take out a boss faster than anyone else, but anything harder than that passes the torch to the people who can keep up that high damage for more than 3 seconds at a spurt.
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Originally Posted by Vaped
When it comes to killing hard/annoying targets, there is no substitute for a good stalker. Seriously, they're awesome.
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In a typical dogpile on the AV, my Stalkers have the whole team in the range of their +critical aura. The results are very noticeable to me, and I play very high DPS builds across melee ATs. I know how my high DPS Brutes and Scrappers contribute in those situations, and my Stalker is extremely competitive.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Yes, there is. It's call an average scrapper or brute. Stalkers are inferior to both when it comes to sustained damage. Stalkers can take out a boss faster than anyone else, but anything harder than that passes the torch to the people who can keep up that high damage for more than 3 seconds at a spurt.
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In short, I don't believe you.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If you have a whole team in range of the crit area, then that's not a dogpile, that's an orgy. Squishies are going to die to random AoEs if they are close enough to be in that area. So, unless you are in some persistent melee-only team, I don't believe you. And if you're going to play that kind of optimal situation cherry picking, then you should be comparing it to a damage capped brute, who will again make the stalker look pathetic. Having 7 other people dry-hump you to max your crit is a tad less common than having a kin on the team somewhere.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
In a typical dogpile on the AV, my Stalkers have the whole team in the range of their +critical aura. The results are very noticeable to me, and I play very high DPS builds across melee ATs. I know how my high DPS Brutes and Scrappers contribute in those situations, and my Stalker is extremely competitive.
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You and the people you play with apparently need to learn about the joy of team and ally defense buffs, or maybe the joy of a moderate-defense IO build and a small luck. I and the people I play with it's common if not universal for everyone to be at the defense cap.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
If you have a whole team in range of the crit area, then that's not a dogpile, that's an orgy. Squishies are going to die to random AoEs if they are close enough to be in that area. So, unless you are in some persistent melee-only team, I don't believe you.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Even if completely true:|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
In a typical dogpile on the AV, my Stalkers have the whole team in the range of their +critical aura. The results are very noticeable to me, and I play very high DPS builds across melee ATs. I know how my high DPS Brutes and Scrappers contribute in those situations, and my Stalker is extremely competitive.
In short, I don't believe you. |
Scrapper: 1.125 * 1.10 crits on AVs = 1.2375
Stalker 1.00 * 1.31 crits on AVs = 1.31
And Scrapper BU is 100% instead of 80%; they have Soul Drain and Follow Up. They have Fiery Embrace, and damage toggles, and AAO. They benefit more from every single +damage boost, like Fulcrum Shift, Assault, Accelerate Metabolism, Fortitude, and so on. And they still get more durability to boot.
Even with absolutely ideal conditions, a Stalker edges out a Scrapper by at most a mere 6%, while the Scrapper gets those conditions basically all the time. All it takes is a slight nudge and the Scrapper is doing as well or better than the Stalker again.
Not that impressive.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Lol an average Scrapper or Brute will be dead. Since average Scraps and Brutes need babysitting or have to buckle down their aggressive tendencies, that leaves a lot more opportunity for my average Stalker to get in, take out trouble targets then join in the melee.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Yes, there is. It's call an average scrapper or brute. Stalkers are inferior to both when it comes to sustained damage. Stalkers can take out a boss faster than anyone else, but anything harder than that passes the torch to the people who can keep up that high damage for more than 3 seconds at a spurt.
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Now an above-average Scrapper or Brute? They get a lot more leeway in how cunning they can be since they can survive a lot easier (either due to intimate knowledge of the enemy and/or their power set as well as a good build). Pinpointing the problem target and taking it out isn't as simple as pushing buttons.
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Um...|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Scrapper: 1.125 * 1.10 crits on AVs = 1.2375
Stalker 1.00 * 1.31 crits on AVs = 1.31 <snip> They benefit more from every single +damage boost, like Fulcrum Shift, Assault, Accelerate Metabolism, Fortitude, and so on. |
That's factually wrong. You're calculating effective damage scales after criticals, which are a multiplicative factor on top of damage buffs. External damage buffs are an additive factor inside the base value.
ScrapperDamage = ScrapperCriticalFactor * ScrapperBase * (1+buffs)
StalkerDamage = StalkerCriticalFactor * StalkerBase * (1+buffs)
For external buffs not provided by the character onto itself , the term (1+buffs) will be identical - a Scrapper and a Stalker get the same buff from a Defender's Assault or a Corruptor's Fulcrum Shift. That means that for situations where the Stalker's critical factor puts them in the lead, external buffs do nothing to pull the Scrapper back ahead.
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| And Scrapper BU is 100% instead of 80%; they have Soul Drain and Follow Up. They have Fiery Embrace, and damage toggles, and AAO. |
Since I spend a lot of TF time on teams with very high-order damage buffs during the AV dog-pile in particular, with most of my team very near around me*, I notice that I'm often running very competitively with my Scrappers. Frankly, after the changes to Brute Fury, the interaction in damage buffs and Fury's bonus and the reduction in the Brute damage buff cap, I'm likely usually above what a Brutes can contribute unless they're a /FA Brute using Fiery Embrace.
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| And they still get more durability to boot. |
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| Not that impressive. |
To be clear, I am not saying there aren't problems with the Stalker AT. I'm rebutting a claim about team performance about a hard target, which to me means an AV or a GM. You've provided some edge cases where my rebuttal may not hold true, which I either acknowledged (for Fiery Embrace) or mentioned an edge cases to your edge cases (operating at the respective damage buff caps) but nothing else you responded with is relevant to what I said, or the specific topic to which I replied.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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AoE damage is vastly more efficient than single target.|
Originally Posted by Sgt_Hobo
The more I play this game, the more I feel like it focuses mostly, if not entirely, on AOE centered characters.
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As to why anyone would bother making anything else, see Seebs' quote in my sig.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
The whole point of the way things work now is that you can have a mix, and it works out well as long as you get some workable permutation. To say that single-target damage is useless, and then point out that's only because you brought enough buffs and debuffs that you don't need it... duh?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA