Honoree mission Awful
By
Airborne_Ninja,
Posted on: 2010-11-30 13:42 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I was talking from the perspective of using more AoE than anything else, as tankers (my main melee AT) tend to be more AoE capable. Eventually you'd be left with nothing but bosses.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Well, that's why I've learned to take out the bosses first.
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Not that it matters to my Dark Armor tank. Hell, I've jumped into the Rikti Mothership Bowl alone without trouble.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
Well, as the aggro system is explained, higher-rank enemies get priority to attack you when you're at the aggro cap.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
So hey, if you ever get tired of Sappers, just kite around 17 angry bosses and they'll ignore you!
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Oh seriously give me a break.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Oh, you managed to screenshot what I was faced with after I finally beat down Holtz...
And yeah, sure, if I'd know to come on the forums and look up the entire arc, ruining the surprises and plot and bascially reading the guidebook for it, I'm sure I woulda been fine. But then I might as well just PL to 50 and skip all the content if I'm going to do that, might'nt I? There was nothing tactical about it. It was 'We're going to break your AoE target cap with so many targets that you will, invariably, die.' I've said my piece, and will continue to view that kinda thing as bugged to hell. |
All you need to do is be on a global chat channel and ASK FOR HELP.
Tactical. Means. Figuring it out. Before. You. Die.
You didn't HAVE to wade in there. You didn't HAVE to try and defeat all the conscripts. That was your poor choice in tactics. You needed better tactics than "OMG I WILL DIE HERE!"
If you aren't able to come up with "crap, portals = more conscripts = overwhelming; portals must die" that's YOUR problem. If you aren't able to bend your pride down a few notches and ask for assistance from someone with a ranged attack so you can snipe and pull, that's YOUR problem.
This mission is neither bugged nor impossible to solo. It's much easier to duo, I can't even imagine what ruin it would be to be on a full team, but it would still be DOable.
Keep in mind, I DID bug that mission with that image there as backup. However, I STILL BEAT IT. Solo. On an ice/kin troller.
So please whine in another direction, because it's neither buggy nor impossible, NOR is it equitable to "cheating your way to 50" by simply asking for some HELP.
We're HEROES. *or villains.... whatever* We can team if we need to, there are hundreds of thousands of us available. Certainly more on right now than ever in the last couple months, at the appropriate level range and experience. Chances are you just need to ask for one person with a snipe to come help you.
OR, you know, turn your difficulty rating down. That mission there was on +1 level, x3 hero with bosses and EBs. Turn it down to x1, it'd have been a cakewalk for most of us.
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The complaints are about how hard it is. When people spend all their time slotting purples and softcapping defense and overall making a 'god' character, they get really really pissy when a mission hands them their buttcheeks on a plate.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im sure for people who have been playing for the entire life of the game have planned every slot, have spreadsheets pasted to their posterior this is still easy on bad powersets.
For normal people its still hard as proven by go look at any BC in RWZ at the amount of complaints about the mission. |
This mission was cake for me, and I'm not even some uber-slotted guy. I ran it on my Ill/Kin 'Troller, my Pistol/Kin 'Corr, and my Fire/Fire Brute earlier this morning with no issues, all set to +0/x8 with Bosses+AV's enabled.
Do not complain about difficulty when the entire purpose of these arcs is to be challenging and quite literally test your mettle. I bet I could take any powerset through this mission and, with the right approach, stomp both Holtz and the Honoree flat.
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It is... When you soloing it with AVs enabled and getting distracted by ambushes.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
This is one of the worst missions Ive ever seen in the game, getting held and 2 shotted is not in any way shape or form fun.
This mission is darn near undoable by squishies unless they are bleeding io's from their ears. Melee's are soloing this fairly easy and dont want or need to team up with the squishies. And I saw alot of people saying just drop the mission, its not worth it... whats the point of putting in a mission so many people are just going to drop. |
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I don't plan slots. I don't play the game like a spreadsheet. I don't IO out characters and go for max DPS/softcapped anything. Most of these characters have been slotted as they've gotten from 1-50. |
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im sure for people who have been playing for the entire life of the game have planned every slot, have spreadsheets pasted to their posterior this is still easy on bad powersets..
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Or are you just arguing that you're utterly incompetent?
Done it three times so far.
I autocompleted it once(rad/ta) since its just a bunch of retarded bags of hp thats not fun just boring when you grind down hp and have to zone out because you get mezzed every now and then and get hit in the cae with total folcus for dumb damage. and that corr doesnt do enough damage to be able to store more breakfrees than lucks.
Sonic/kin. mash insps plenty of fulcrum fuel not that hard.
Stalker. overload on reds AS, placate, AS, frenzy, AS, spam attacks, cruise control.
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Thank you so much for insulting my intelligence. Im sure that makes everything better.|
Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
Keep in mind, I DID bug that mission with that image there as backup. However, I STILL BEAT IT. Solo. On an ice/kin troller.
OR, you know, turn your difficulty rating down. That mission there was on +1 level, x3 hero with bosses and EBs. Turn it down to x1, it'd have been a cakewalk for most of us. |
I said before; this mission WAS on +0/x1. Thats part of the reason I was really narked with it.
And I did beat it solo, eventually. And then the net crashed. So no way in smegging hell I was going through that crapstorm again.
Hence my rebuttal of people going "ZOMG so easy, dont let people drop missions despite them maybe having valid reasons to!"
Kindly take your patronising elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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^^This|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I don't plan slots. I don't play the game like a spreadsheet. I don't IO out characters and go for max DPS/softcapped anything. Most of these characters have been slotted as they've gotten from 1-50.
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I solo'd Holtz and the Weakened Honoree on my Illusion/Emp Controller and she doesn't have a single complete set slotted and has a handful of Procs. It took a couple of rez's while tackling Holtz, and again with Honoree. A little frustrating at first, but this wasn't meant to be a simple task. Take it to -1/x1 if you need to, but I don't think this mission needs to be changed in the least.
As for the portals? If you can, get a hold of some
if you can, confused portals will spawn confused Rikti and they will attack each other and the portals.Also, if you have access to an SG, make judicious use of the Empowerment Station.
Okie lets run with that.
Then the new balance point is every powerset needs to be able to solo an EB.
This seems a little odd considering the devs have said in the past, not all powersets are intended to be able to solo bosses, which is why bosses can be disabled for solo, but now we are jumping all the all the way to the new balance point being EB.
Wonderful..... time to start wining about powerset imbalances, real or perceived.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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You get that kind of warning all over the place in this game. It very often doesn't mean squat. The impact of it has been diluted by over-use.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You mean besides Lady Grey saying it's going to be tough - as in warning you to bring friends? Nah. Nothing at all that might indicate a somewhat tougher fight.
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So no, nothing at all that clearly indicates a tougher fight. Those warnings frequently don't indicate anything of the sort (certainly didn't in the last mission of this very arc).
A clear indication would've been making it a difficult arc from the outset. A clear indication would've been not framing it as a personal story you're going at alone. A clear indication would've been a proper build-up, instead of relying entirely on the way-too-commonly-used 'you might wanna bring some friends' schtick.
That's just a cop-out covering for shoddy design. Had the arc been done properly, Grey wouldn't have had to give a canned warning. You would've already known you were going into something hair-curling, 'cuz everything leading up to it wouldn't have been a cakewalk.
The more I think about it, the more I think this should've been split into two arcs: a solo-friendly, personal journey introduction, followed by a blistering trial or mini-TF that 1. required a team of some sort and 2, required that everyone on the team completed part 1.
Anywho, one of the points I've made (that's been glossed over yet again), is that it ain't just people who struggled with this arc that don't like it.
The arc just does not seem to be making a good first impression. Given that it's the introduction to the Incarnate content, and given that PS has a fair bit invested in that system right now, I think it needs to be reworked.
And I really must stop reading this thread! >.<
*goes away 4REALZ this time*
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Every powerset combination can solo that mission with the right combination of inspirations and tactics. That is all that is required. It is not intended to be easy, and its not intended to be completed by using the standard tactics of run and make everything die with a couple of attacks. Its definitely not intended to be easy for people who get impatient when the first thing they try fails.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Okie lets run with that.
Then the new balance point is every powerset needs to be able to solo an EB. This seems a little odd considering the devs have said in the past, not all powersets are intended to be able to solo bosses, which is why bosses can be disabled for solo, but now we are jumping all the all the way to the new balance point being EB. Wonderful..... time to start wining about powerset imbalances, real or perceived. |
And for the record, although I was a beta tester, I explicitly, as is my norm, did not test the arc, and did not read threads talking about tactics regarding the arc. So I went into the arc as clean and ignorant as I could possibly have been. I actually enjoyed being surprised and having to figure out the mechanics of Trapdoor and the best tactics for dealing with the Honoree mission. So far, I've only done it on two characters: MA/SR and En/En blaster. In the case of the blaster, I used a combination of pulling and insps: break frees and lucks, basically.
Personally, I find the difficulty of the arc just about right for an intro to the Incarnate system. The end game content is not going to be mindless mow-down-everything content. I'm pretty sure it will be more of this, and then some. So if you don't like thinking about tactics, get impatient when the first thing you try fails, aren't interested in using your inspiration tray wisely, and get bored if your kill speed slows down for a few minutes, my guess is that the entire end game system as a whole is not going to be your cup of tea.
In fact, I'm hoping that this entire arc represents the *floor* of complexity and difficulty of the rest of the end game content to come. People who think it was "poorly designed" I don't think understand the design target itself. It was designed explicitly to be what it is. In that sense, it is fairly well designed. If that intent itself is something not palatable, that is a completely different issue. One that will be inteerestingly difficult to resolve, because its pretty clear to me that its hitting the mark in terms of its target audience, which is players that actually want this kind of advanced content.
It could be much better of course. But by "better" I mean even more tricky and tactically complex to figure out. Not more streamlined and simplified for rapid soloing.
By the way, I did in fact run right into that room the first time, and got my butt handed to me, which is what is supposed to happen when you don't know what you are doing and run into a room full of things that want to kill you.
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Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
You get that kind of warning all over the place in this game. It very often doesn't mean squat. The impact of it has been diluted by over-use.
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But its not hard.... not for every build, for my plant/psi/lev the entirety of the tactics was pull EB, hit waterspout.. Profit...
Thats it..
This isnt hard, this isnt tactics, no challenge....
For my Ta/arch/mu nothing I could do could stop him from holding me... he held me right through break frees, and 2 hit me right through purples.... he was alone, pulled and still insta killed me.
Again no amount of tactics other than finding a way to jam him up on scenery and shooting him till he died would have worked.
This is the definition of bad balance.... impossibly hard on one character, stupidly easy on another.
And yes, if your AT or powerset has trouble with EB's please point to this thread that EB's solo is the new balance point for powersets.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Down at least four purples. Use the envenomed dagger temp. power which is dirt cheap on the BM. Go to town on all your attacks. If you have any temp pets. Use them too. Really, it works on all my alts even the squishies.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im sure you are soooooooooooo Leet that this might be true.
But in BC there were tons of people having trouble with the mission. Honestly im just going to drop it on all my characters, its just not worth the hassle if your not a melee. |
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I just hope that the difficulty doesn't reach a point that no matter what I try, I just won't be able to succeed.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fact, I'm hoping that this entire arc represents the *floor* of complexity and difficulty of the rest of the end game content to come. People who think it was "poorly designed" I don't think understand the design target itself. It was designed explicitly to be what it is. In that sense, it is fairly well designed. If that intent itself is something not palatable, that is a completely different issue. One that will be inteerestingly difficult to resolve, because its pretty clear to me that its hitting the mark in terms of its target audience, which is players that actually want this kind of advanced content.
It could be much better of course. But by "better" I mean even more tricky and tactically complex to figure out. Not more streamlined and simplified for rapid soloing. |
I played a fair amount of Nintendo growing up, and one of the games I enjoyed was Mike Tyson's Punch-Out. The more I played the more I improved, and eventually I could fairly consistently get to Tyson. I was never able to beat him. I knew the strategy - his tics, his patterns - but I could never quite physically beat him. I'd come close - really close - but inevitably a twitch would be just a hair too late and down I'd go (similarly, I was never able to finish world 8-4 of Super Mario Bros).
I would hate to get to a point where I just wasn't a good enough or clever enough player to be able to progress. Those guys and gals over there? They're better than you. They're smarter than you. And there's nothing you can do about it. I hate that feeling.
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It still can't possibly explain why you didn't seek help on it. Or use actual tactics, as has been the basic issue with your argument.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Thank you so much for insulting my intelligence. Im sure that makes everything better.
I said before; this mission WAS on +0/x1. Thats part of the reason I was really narked with it. And I did beat it solo, eventually. And then the net crashed. So no way in smegging hell I was going through that crapstorm again. Hence my rebuttal of people going "ZOMG so easy, dont let people drop missions despite them maybe having valid reasons to!" Kindly take your patronising elsewhere. |
The mission is hard. Yes. it's supposed to be.
And? If it's hard, get help or don't do it. You're the one who equated asking for help or seeking information on tactics here with powerleveling and cheating through the game. Not me. Patronizing? Yeah. okay.
You're just going to have to team. It's not that difficult to find a team mate even on off hours, on small servers. Hell I was on at 1 this morning (pacific) on protector and there were task forces going on still. So... really.
Team, or tactics, your call. But don't complain if you cannot bring yourself to do either.
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Yeah I know man, you really need to team up to take on network problems.|
Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
It still can't possibly explain why you didn't seek help on it. Or use actual tactics, as has been the basic issue with your argument.
The mission is hard. Yes. it's supposed to be. And? If it's hard, get help or don't do it. You're the one who equated asking for help or seeking information on tactics here with powerleveling and cheating through the game. Not me. Patronizing? Yeah. okay. You're just going to have to team. It's not that difficult to find a team mate even on off hours, on small servers. Hell I was on at 1 this morning (pacific) on protector and there were task forces going on still. So... really. Team, or tactics, your call. But don't complain if you cannot bring yourself to do either. |
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So... just like everything else in the game?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Personally, I find the difficulty of the arc just about right for an intro to the Incarnate system.
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| The end game content is not going to be mindless mow-down-everything content. |
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| I'm pretty sure it will be more of this, and then some. |
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| So if you don't like thinking about tactics |
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| get impatient when the first thing you try fails |
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| aren't interested in using your inspiration tray wisely |
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| and get bored if your kill speed slows down for a few minutes |
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| my guess is that the entire end game system as a whole is not going to be your cup of tea. |
Maybe it's you who want things to be too easy?
I gotta say, I'm pretty surprised that you and some other old-timers around here find this arc to be at all novel.
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| People who think it was "poorly designed" I don't think understand the design target itself. |
Though, now that you mention it, I would like the "design target" for this whole system officially and explicitly outlined by PS. Because it's not saying to me what it's apparently saying to you.
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| because its pretty clear to me that its hitting the mark in terms of its target audience, which is players that actually want this kind of advanced content. |
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| It could be much better of course. But by "better" I mean even more tricky and tactically complex to figure out. Not more streamlined and simplified for rapid soloing. |
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| By the way, I did in fact run right into that room the first time, and got my butt handed to me |
Honoree was the only sticking point for me the first time through, and he was nothing new in that regard. I dealt with him as I've dealt with similar sticking points throughout the game's content at all levels, and moved on.
The last mission was just laughable.
This was not a tricky arc. It was not "tactically complex". Trapdoor was the only thing moderately interesting, and I even found that to be poorly executed.
I'm glad you found the arc engaging. Really, I am. I didn't. And not for any of the reasons you've listed. So maybe you should entertain the idea that the audience this arc has failed to connect with is much broader than you're telling yourself.
I believe this arc, and this content, could reach a much wider audience, without diluting its "design target". Moreover, I think it has to, or it's going to crash and burn... and get abandoned. And that's no good for anyone.
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I thought it was funnier watching Trapdoor die in the lava due to a bad pathing AI. My character just stood around reading a newspaper while he died in the lava.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
BTW to those still struggling with Trapdoor, the trick I used to solo is to pull him, then run or jump to the bottom with your toes at the edge of the lava. Ideally, set it up so the catwalk blocks his ability to shoot you from the platform. He will jump down and try to shoot you from the lava. If you can, Immobilize him there. If not, a knockback (especially a ranged one) can keep him from trying to melee you. The lava will deplete his HP very quickly.
For the fight with the other AVs, I think you can make some of the ambushes appear ahead of time if you go to the end room BEFORE grabbing the glowie. Kill them, go back to the glowie, then go back to the room. If you have ranged attacks, you should be able to pull the first group of portals without aggroing the AVs. Then try to pull each AV back one at a time. Most builds can do it eventually with luck. A few low damage Controllers may be stuck though (I seriously wonder whether my Ice Controllers could pull it off from example because they don't put out a lot of DPS and their pet dies easily). |
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Nothing is going to be as easy or hard for all build. Given the huge differences both in power and in terms of types of utility effects available its impossible to get even close in a single encounter. The best you can do is make some things easier, and some things harder, for everyone of the same approximate power level.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
But its not hard.... not for every build, for my plant/psi/lev the entirety of the tactics was pull EB, hit waterspout.. Profit...
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| And yes, if your AT or powerset has trouble with EB's please point to this thread that EB's solo is the new balance point for powersets. |
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You're welcome.
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Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
Oh, please.
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The basic issue of his argument is that the mission can be incredibly annoying due to the mechanic of the humongous Rikti horde (and note that it's a horde that offers no rewards). Techbot did manage to defeat the elite bosses, so his tactics worked out in the end, and he didn't need help. He didn't manage to complete the mission only because he got disconnected at the end. |
Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
It still can't possibly explain why you didn't seek help on it. Or use actual tactics, as has been the basic issue with your argument.
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(Personally, I have no complaint against the annoying aspects of the mission, as long as I can auto-complete the mission.)
Alright, Techbot Alpha, I don't want to hear your whining anymore. I just did the mission on my Bots/Traps with absolutely no problem at all.
I know what you're going to say. It wasn't my first time into the mission. Very true, but I thought ahead to counteract that.
I TRIED TO FAIL.
That's right, I jumped in head first, right on top of two portals. Not even targeting the portals, the two at my end died from AoE. I left the two in the back alive while my bots tore Honoree and Holtz to little bitty pieces. All I did was taunt and lay traps. No commands to my bots. No tactics. No inspirations. Bloody bumrush, and I came through without a hitch.
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Well, good for you. We obviously had different variables of luck. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Alright, Techbot Alpha, I don't want to hear your whining anymore. I just did the mission on my Bots/Traps with absolutely no problem at all.
I know what you're going to say. It wasn't my first time into the mission. Very true, but I thought ahead to counteract that. I TRIED TO FAIL. That's right, I jumped in head first, right on top of two portals. Not even targeting the portals, the two at my end died from AoE. I left the two in the back alive while my bots tore Honoree and Holtz to little bitty pieces. All I did was taunt and lay traps. No commands to my bots. No tactics. No inspirations. Bloody bumrush, and I came through without a hitch. |
When I get round to doing the mish again, I'm sure I won't get done over so much by terrible net drop timing and bad luck leading to insurmountable ammounts of Rikti.
One last question; did you sit back and let the portals spawn..hmm...for two-three minutes? Because thats what happened when I was trying to fight Holtz. If you managed to beat the mission through over 100 or so Rikti minions, good on you. You are invariably a better player than me, and I don't much mind.
But I think it's reasonable of me to take issue with people basically calling me out as some kind of idiot or whiny noob who can't cope with a hard mission. Because it's untrue, and I will tell anyone who says as such exactly what to do with themself, as Im pretty sure most other people would to.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Also, people who have been trained on easy-mode gameplay complaining when confronted with something that isn't? Color me shocked.
I'm guessing being semi-tired last night coupled with a string of bad luck on the mission didn't improve my perception of it. I'm sure I'll comment again when I get another toon to 50 and try it again.