Quote:
Sorry Omy, but you really should have expected it. Whenever a new issue add a new mechanic to the game, people will use it in their RP and why shouldn't they? They ARE becoming more powerful, after all.
|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
It's just that all this incarnate stuff is rubbing me a bit the wrong way, it comes out and all of a sudden everyones characer are going on simultanious uests or whatever to gain power.
Whats wrong with the IC power level we had before? I just don't get why everyones suddenly decided to make all thier characters that much more powerful... |
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
I get this but as FFM says, it's not unusual for roleplayers to want to do the new shiny and use RP to justify it. We've been roleplaying characters of Incarnate and cosmic levels of power for ages anyway, why let the game dictate our real power level? For me, Dante's already outside of the game framework with his abilities, the Incarnate content will just be another adventure for him.
|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
It's just that all this incarnate stuff is rubbing me a bit the wrong way, it comes out and all of a sudden everyones characer are going on simultanious uests or whatever to gain power.
Whats wrong with the IC power level we had before? I just don't get why everyones suddenly decided to make all thier characters that much more powerful... |
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
When a path opens, pioneers and adventurers rush to take it. That's what marks them as pioneers and adventurers. In most cases, especially if the new path proves worthwhile, everyone else will follow.|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
It's just that all this incarnate stuff is rubbing me a bit the wrong way, it comes out and all of a sudden everyones characer are going on simultanious uests or whatever to gain power.
Whats wrong with the IC power level we had before? I just don't get why everyones suddenly decided to make all thier characters that much more powerful... |
Humanity has survived untold millennia without needing the Internet. Why did almost everyone suddenly decide, over the course of just one generation, to make their entertainment, drive for knowledge, or ability to communicate so much more powerful? Because they suddenly could.
Looked at another way, most of my characters will remain at the same (relative) level of power - the highest possible. The furthermost development the game allows me to reach.
http://www.savecoh.com/
My crazy punching robot brute will have just stumbled into it by chance, same as his rampage through RWZ, Cim, Oro, and Blueside.
The in-game explanation of how characters gain advanced abilities is really only *one* possible explanation, and players are free to accept or renounce that explanation as most befits their own character.
The 'Many Worlds' theory and all that, dontchaknow. 
AMERIKATT: Star of Stage, Screen, and Saturday morning cartoons! (Art by Psygon and ChristopherRobin)
"(Katt-Girl) obviously reads a lot of encyclopedias" -- Kiken
Dark_Respite's video -- Avatar: COH Style!
I Support Nerd Flirting and Even More Nerd Flirting!
I'm a fan of telling over powered characters to prove it, usually in the arena.
Maybe it's odd of me but I expect people who claim IC to ***** slap Recluse, or one hit take down a giant monster to be able to prove it. Of course they so often can't.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Personally I don't intend to run the incarnate arc IC for any of my characters as I'm quite happy with the IC power level I have already established. OOC however I am very much looking forward to more BOOM!(tm) 
"Don't go away mad, just go away..." The best line Clint never said.
#406785 - Assisting the PPD
Quote:
It's not odd of you, I'm not keen on overpowered characters either. However, there is a big difference between being overpowered and having abilities that don't fit the game engine. Still, I think that issue has been debated to death on this forum already.
|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
I'm a fan of telling over powered characters to prove it, usually in the arena.
Maybe it's odd of me but I expect people who claim IC to ***** slap Recluse, or one hit take down a giant monster to be able to prove it. Of course they so often can't. |
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Quote:
I'm in agreement with yourself and Dante on this. Okay, not necessarily in the Arena, but it should be a power-level they can reflect in-game. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Maybe it's odd of me but I expect people who claim IC to ***** slap Recluse, or one hit take down a giant monster to be able to prove it. Of course they so often can't.
|
However, Dante and I along with other members of The Militia do rather enjoy a good IC Arena session when we can find the time and reason. Sometimes as IC Training sessions, occassionally as set-piece face-offs that conclude an in-game or forum-based RP plot. Overpowered characters just would not fit with that activity at all. A thing sadly proven a time or two.
Oddly enough, (or perhaps predictably), it is so often the uber-powered characters that are the ones who continually faceplant on TFs and the like, completely ruining any suspension of disbelief about their claimed power as the far more modestly powered characters actually carry the day while continually saving the supposedly powerful character.
Of course, there are characters who are incredibly powerful who have good reason why this doesn't reflect in the Arena or in Missions.
My ancient mage, Powerstone, for example can do a lot more magics than the game allow, and that the realities of a combat situation would allow. In missions and in fights, he cannot use Ritual Magic and Ceremonial Magic, of course, as he doesn't have the luxury of days of time to chant, craft materials, and perform complex alchemy. Dante's most powerful character is similarly a Mage, and has similar limitations.
I would say that much of the same limitation would apply to tech-based characters, who in the luxury of their own labs and workshops could create all sorts of marvels that could not possibly be carried into missions.
The things that one can do under pressure, with little equipment, are not a sign of what one can actually do given time and resources. The world's greatest Engineer is not able to manufacture a large steel bridge to hit an opponent with in the jostle of an unexpected bar-fight. But he could certainly build one under reasonable working conditions, given access to the tools and materials needed.
I guess it comes simply down to choosing ones powers and abilities beyond the engine in a way that will naturally reflect the powerlevels you will have within it. Being immortal is fine, as the game engine works that way. Being invulnerable at all times really isn't, as the game is also built to do damage your character. Being able to tear through any metal like it was paper is also perhaps silly, if other players are going to have to help you take down vault doors, or break out of cell doors.
http://www.savecoh.com/
Quote:
Aye. Just because he 'cant do that' in game doesnt stop my Tanker from being great with computers, or using a minor EMP on robots exlectronics. Small stuff like that.|
Originally Posted by Dante
It's not odd of you, I'm not keen on overpowered characters either. However, there is a big difference between being overpowered and having abilities that don't fit the game engine. Still, I think that issue has been debated to death on this forum already.
|
And he's never one to claim to be able to one shot archvillains.
Once I get him levelled back up to 50, however, I'd be restoring his right to laugh off pretty much any AV happily
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
None in game powers can be placed into the game though. For example Ammon's mages ritual magic, couldn't that be used to explain his super groups teleporter or medical bay?
I believe the nighthunters use some sort of amulet to explain super group chat and private messages.
Hacking is a more difficult one, since according to game all characters can hack black ops military hardware within ten seconds.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I think, after ponderous reflextion that for all my toons i will be treating Incarnate progression as i would a raising of the level cap, in other words just carrying on with the toons story in the same way as i have for normal leveling.
A number of my alts are played as street level heroes rather than the world saving sort, so there is no place for an IC incarnate event with out totally changing the characters nature.
I do find that apart from AE stuff very few of the end game arcs work as IC missions for my toons.
Quote:
I completely agree. I much prefer regular people who become empowered and so I only have a few real world saving, 'classic style' superheroes. |
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
A number of my alts are played as street level heroes rather than the world saving sort, so there is no place for an IC incarnate event with out totally changing the characters nature.
|
Having the powers of a god are going to be massive overkill for keeping the streets of King's Row safe.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
While I agree that arbitrarily overpowered characters are not good, this whole issue does raise a question for me (it's on topic, I promise!)
If it's the duty of a player who wants their character to be comparatively more powerful than others in-character to back that claim up in-game, is it then also the duty of a player who wants their character to be comparatively less powerful than others in-character to do likewise?
Becoming Incarnate is a good specific example. Several people in this thread have mentioned that they plan to upgrade their characters in-game using the incarnate system without making them incarnates in-character. (Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say they shouldn't do this. I've done the equivalent myself with other game mechanics.) So, let's say we have two hypothetical characters, call them Billy and Jimmy. Both are natural martial artists from the same school and with identical training. In-game, they have equal builds and are evenly matched in PvP.
Now, Issue 19 hits, and both players decide they want to use the incarnate system. But whereas Billy is becoming an incarnate IC, Jimmy isn't; he's just training more intensely. At the end of the day, the two characters are still equal... even though Billy is now empowered by the Well of the Furies and Jimmy is just better-trained.
Is it then fair to demand that Billy's player find a way to make Billy more powerful than Jimmy, to justify the Billy's status as a true Incarnate? Or in this case, is Jimmy's player at fault for "misusing" the incarnate system? Or, are we going to establish that the much-vaunted power of the Incarnates is nothing more than can be achieved through extra training or a technology upgrade?
Anyway, even more on-topic, I'm still not 100% sure exactly how I'll work out the IC side of my characters becoming Incarnate, but if I do end up making use of the in-game storyline for it, it will be once at most. Each character's journey has to be different, after all.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Wolfram
Is it then fair to demand that Billy's player find a way to make Billy more powerful than Jimmy, to justify the Billy's status as a true Incarnate? Or in this case, is Jimmy's player at fault for "misusing" the incarnate system? Or, are we going to establish that the much-vaunted power of the Incarnates is nothing more than can be achieved through extra training or a technology upgrade?
|
no i would not require Billy's player to do anything, i simple RP my street level hero as weaker, i.e. while his fist punches through a impervium wall, my fist is only powerful enoygh to KO a Skull minion with one blow.
Any Rped fight between the two would be an auto win for Billy, as Billy is BaB and Jimmy is a Longbow Lt.
Quote:
I'm planning to go with a third option.|
Originally Posted by Wolfram
... both players decide they want to use the incarnate system. But whereas Billy is becoming an incarnate IC, Jimmy isn't; he's just training more intensely. At the end of the day, the two characters are still equal... even though Billy is now empowered by the Well of the Furies and Jimmy is just better-trained.
Is it then fair to demand that Billy's player find a way to make Billy more powerful than Jimmy, to justify the Billy's status as a true Incarnate? Or in this case, is Jimmy's player at fault for "misusing" the incarnate system? Or, are we going to establish that the much-vaunted power of the Incarnates is nothing more than can be achieved through extra training or a technology upgrade? |
Remember what I was saying before about for me, the Well is simply one channel or link to something else, a greater power, quite literally? Basically a god-like entity that can imbue others with god-like powers.
For me, Billy would be making direct efforts to contact and use the power of this greater entity, turning himself Incarnate. Jimmy would be getting it bestowed upon him without his knowledge. A double-edged gift from a god-like entity that he may not even notice or recognize as anything beyond his own training.
I think this setles comfortably into the mechanics without breaking anything for anyone. I don't even need Jimmy's player to agree with me, because it can all be without his knowing.
There is still going to be a need to choose at some point, though. Incarnate powers are pretty certain to offer some powers that are not possible in the game outside of being Incarnate. The level boost thingy for one very simple and immediate example. Someone who is adamant that their character is not an Incarnate, not even as an unasked for Gift they had no choice over, is probably going to have to steer clear of some boosts and abilities, or be in absolute argument with cannon. You can be absolutely certain that some of the new Incarnate content is going to make absolutely clear that only one with God-like powers can attain this.
Of course, those who are happy to solo, and are not going to boast of doing whatever mission or task can only be done by Incarnates will be fine. Whatever doesn't break reality for others is always fine.
http://www.savecoh.com/
My main, a L50 scrapper named Kavik the Wolf Boy, was not RPed as being anything near the L50 power level until GR came out. He was a heroic werewolf who could tear through street thugs but would never have been able to hold his own against anything big. I did have him join the Vanguard, but otherwise his IC role in most of his adventures was much less 'direct' than in-game.
Once he was able to 'go rogue' Kavik was forced to merge with a future version of himself, one that had been sent by Vanguard into the Shadow Shard to help prevent the arrival of Rularoo on Earth during the oft-mentioned Coming Storm. During this battle one of the aspects of Rularoo was destroyed, and Kavik, lost and forgotten in the Chancery, became the host for the resurrecting aspect. To avoid this fate he went back in time and merged with modern Kavik, but largely without access to most of this new power. What he DID have was a corruption of spirit, leading him to darker paths, justifying the changes in alignment he's suffered (currently a Rogue in-game).
With the Incarnate system, modern Kavik will be able to start intergrating with the power of that Rularoo aspect. I intend to play this as a very corrupting influence on him, so that he loses sight of what is right and wrong entirely, slowly becoming more a force of nature than an individual.
Quote:
And this is exactly my point. My most powerful character, Thebe, is little more then a super strong street hero! She doesn't have the same strength as others in the super strength leuge (Most noticabley States and Recluse who would wipe her so fast IC and OOC).|
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
I think, after ponderous reflextion that for all my toons i will be treating Incarnate progression as i would a raising of the level cap, in other words just carrying on with the toons story in the same way as i have for normal leveling.
A number of my alts are played as street level heroes rather than the world saving sort, so there is no place for an IC incarnate event with out totally changing the characters nature. |
The one character I have who would make sense to do somthing Incarnate realted to IC (Skies) just isn't at that power level, seeing how she just uses magic arrows and some charms/martial arts (Man I wish we had an MA secondary for blasters...) so yea, heck the in game power level of what a generic character is like at just lvl 50 is a bit beyond most of my characters!
As for powers that arn't in powersets, sure, I know what those are like such as Sue's mind reading which can't be in game (And there are many ways to defend from! Which kinda means she's as often in tehd ark as everyone else is :P) Or Skies spirit walks, which are just excuses to use certian AE maps or have certian parts of character development.
But yea, that's the level I work on IC, it's the level I always plan to work on IC, even if OOC I get an Alpha slot or whatever. I can perfectly udnerstand people from an OOC perspective wanting to go and try out the new stuff, nothing wrong with that, heck I also do that. My question was simpley why everyone felt the need to make it happen IC as well.
Quote:
Honestly mate? That's totally NOT how she comes across when you play her. There've been plenty of times where she's made claims of being able to take pretty much anyone.|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
And this is exactly my point. My most powerful character, Thebe, is little more then a super strong street hero! She doesn't have the same strength as others in the super strength leuge (Most noticabley States and Recluse who would wipe her so fast IC and OOC).
|
Then there's her Wolverine level regen, making her able to regenerate from pretty much ANY injury anyone cares to mention, right down to decapitation.
Not that there's a problem with ANY of that. There isn't, none whatsoever. Just pointing out that you DO do the same as everyone else.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
"When it reaches a sufficient level, there is next to no difference between technology and magic."|
Originally Posted by Wolfram
Is it then fair to demand that Billy's player find a way to make Billy more powerful than Jimmy, to justify the Billy's status as a true Incarnate? Or in this case, is Jimmy's player at fault for "misusing" the incarnate system? Or, are we going to establish that the much-vaunted power of the Incarnates is nothing more than can be achieved through extra training or a technology upgrade?
|
Horribly paraphrased quote aside, who's to say that Incarnates can't be technology related? If Alpha can up against the likes of Statesman or Recluse and walk away standing, then surely the technolgy he used is on par or superior to that of an Incarnate? What, then, is the difference? If any?
As for the justifcation, does there have to be any uber advanced reason for it? Other than 'it happens'? A great example is perhaps the very paragon of an 'Incarnate' like character, Superman. And yet he can and has been beaten by Batman, a man with nothing but his own natural talent and wits (and a very deep wallet, granted)
People (in general, sweeping statement) still seem to think that 'Incarnate' is like the misconception about Epic ATs somehow being 'Better' ATs. Incarnate classified Heroes and Villains may well be actual Incarnates, OR they may simply have the means to equal or best Incarnates, putting them on the same level.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I'd say Deadpool, myself...but otherwise I agree |
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Honestly mate? That's totally NOT how she comes across when you play her. There've been plenty of times where she's made claims of being able to take pretty much anyone.
Then there's her Wolverine level regen, making her able to regenerate from pretty much ANY injury anyone cares to mention, right down to decapitation. Not that there's a problem with ANY of that. There isn't, none whatsoever. Just pointing out that you DO do the same as everyone else. |
I think Omy may be refering to her Strength levels, however, not her Defence abilities.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
I was refering to her strength levels yes, being able to regen doesn't make her any less fragile! It just means she gets up again.
A fight vs say... Lord Recluse would go as follows:
Thebe: "Alright you giant spider bring i-" *Splat*
Recluse: "Pathetic"
Thebe: *Climbs up slowley* "Oookay that was a bi-" *Splat*
Rinse and repeat until bored.
Now she might say differntly IC, what with y'know the regen making her feel she's effectivly invincible, but in any IC or OOC fight if she's against someone she can't knock out in one or two hits, she's toast.
I remember she kept trying to run away and Nightwalker stepped on her in Dwarf form once.
That was amusing
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
I figured out an interesting way to translate the incarnate ascension for my magic-based, shield/axe tanker in a way that doesn't involve the actual character achieving said incarnate status.
This whole entire time, the hero called Snappin' Turtle has been fighting crime thanks to the magical pairing of the shield and axe he found. The shield & axe are "intelligent weapons", and will seek out their once former glory of incarnate-hood when i19 hits, which means Snappin' will be carrying them.
OK, so maybe Snappin' Turtle will become incarnate by-proxy, still, I like to say he's not actually an incarnate, the weapons are!
With technology origin toons, some of them might actually be able to access something deep within their "souls" (Ghost Widow patron) that allows them to ascend, or they achieve a higher level of thinking than typical genius-level intelligence...total robot hero/villains may just evolve more complex programming etc etc...
Scientists can be seen as skirting the boundaries of accepted scientific practices and fringe sciences...which can lead to their "incarnate"-esque status.
My 3 50's are all supposed to be cosmic-level in power anyway, like on the same level as the Green Lanterns or Nova and that ilk, so that's going to be my built-in rationale for going Incarnate with them. I'm just going to pretend they were always that awesome.
There is an art, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. --The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy