Curiosity: Incarnate!

Mostly the same thing. Substantially the same thing, just from differing perspectives.

I started to argue because certain people were insisting that the Well is mystical/magical, and unusable to non mystical/magical characters. As when FFM said "too limiting for most folks, especially those who don't have magic based characters".

The Well is whatever you want it to be or perceive it as. That's what I've been saying over and over in various ways since my first post in this discussion. That anyone refusing it because they insist it is magical/mystical is limiting anyone's characters who take the Well as a Force, a far-future AI, a Destiny Engine, or whatever they want that can fit the effects. They were the ones sailing perilously close to god-modding other character's backstories.

I'll take it from a Dev or cancel my sub, but I have no need to take it from players who simply lacked the imaginative thought to say "Oh, sure. It can be that. It doesn't have to be an actual well, as in a hole in the ground with a bucket".

I know that my use of the words 'god-like entity' will have thrown a few people who don't know me well. You see, for me, God is just a label for whatever created the universe. God may be a big bang. God may be some collective spiritual consciousness or energy somewhere between budhism and 'The Force'. God may or may not be sentient (but probably not as we understand it). God is just a nice short word for a complex unknown concept. For me, God never means some spectral beardy guy in the sky.

However, we did have some genuine divergent opinions - namely that Incarnate shouldn't necessarily exist at all. With mentions of it being something a street level hero might have. Or as simple as straightening a wonky gunsight.

The consensus we're arriving at does not agree with those. It works around them in much the same way I suggested. "Sure, that's what they think". As Forrest Gump might put it, "Incarnate is as Incarnate does".

I still, personally, am prepared to accept characters who can seem to keep up with and compete with Incarnates not actually being Incarnate at all, even without their knowledge, if the explanation is good enough. Incarnate level power is 'superhero plus', but we all know from beating Incarnates in-game that the plus doesn't have to be in a single person. A team of people = superhero plus. Finding other explanations for applying the plus than having personally gotten more powerful (i.e. in your character's own person) is cool too, for me.

Zortel's new armour allows her to have the targeting and telemetry of a super-hero AI, right there with a super-hero, inside a suit that is advanced enough to be a super-being in its own right? Perfect, I counted three super-heroes in that team, just all in one suit, and I'd probably class the full resources of the Vigil's AI, housed in an entire tower-block as more than one hero, and more than its portable personification has been able to demonstrate to date.

I'd tip my hat to someone who used their five costume slots to represent an entire tag-team of regular super-heroes, using that method to keep pace with Incarnates. Again, representing not one hero who rose to Incarnate levels of power, but five heroes with identical powers or tech who are teaming up.

I cannot for the life of me recall a time when people were complaining a character wasn't powerful enough. The other side of that coin, sure! But if you want to be a low powered street hero, I just don't see any outcry too it.

I'm going to wait for the arc, when no-one can agree on what the word Incarnate even means I really need to see it myself before I join in. I'm hoping it just means "Cosmic", "Uber" or "Really Powerful" and has no other special strings attached. But we'll see.

Nothing OOC ever breaks IC reality.

The problem only comes up where you have Incarnate powers quite obviously in an IC mission/situation and insist you don't. So long as people are not IC saying they are doing things only an Incarnate could do, yet also saying they are not Incarnate, there's no need for any issue, explanation, or anything because the problem never arose IC.

Even in that situation, however, I'd almost certainly use my get-out rationale. My character would assume that their character was an Incarnate (whatever that is, empowered by the Well, whatever that is, directly or indirectly), and simply didn't even know it themselves.

Taking the game that literally is usually being just a little bit of a ****. There's certain things we can't help, like how Fanservice Girl beats her chest like Tarzan every-time she turns Tough on.

That doesn't mean she's getting in touch with her primeval side. Just that I can't exactly help that the animation does that. Similarly a lot my characters use Hasten, but almost none of them have spontaneously glowing forearms. Wrench Wench's robots like to fire lasers around like it's a disco, but she's actually incredibly safety conscious (Unlike the games animations)

Wrench Wench is likely going to have a lot of fun pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of the term. "It's an 'Incarnate Flamethrower' rather than an improved design? What's the difference? There is no difference? Well shut the **** up then with this Incarnate nonsense."

Essentially none. She'd be precisely that sort of 'Incarnate and doesn't know it' type. The fact that she's just produced a flamethrower that only a god-level being could, that breaks the laws of physics is the proof.

Because the best possible flamethrower an non-incarnate can produce is what you can produce for your level 50 with IOs.

Even just the Alpha slot makes a HUGE difference. Let's take Mechano's earlier example of just slotting the +acc Alpha. You now have a character that can easily have the equivalent of 7 or 8 slots worth of enhancements in every single power that accepts accuracy enhances. Something no mortal can really do without the influence of the Incarnate (whatever you define that as, as per all previous discussion).

Or maybe you think if you take the alpha slot for +damage, allowing you to free up one damage slot from every damage power, now you've stayed within the 'laws of physics for mortals' boundaries, because even with the alpha, none of your powers work out as the equivalent of six slots of IOs ... but no. Because you have now got, effectively, more total slots for powers than the rules of non-incarnate physics allow. You've just five-slotted three times more powers than any level 50 could do.

So basically, yes, totally agree that Wrench Wench could deny all Incarnate status stuff to her impossible flame-thrower, but the fact is that it goes beyond what is possible for a level 50. Not just that one flame thrower of course. But the slotting part. It would be like someone carrying more equipment than could possibly be physically carried. It might not be immediately obvious, but it would be there. Only an Inarnate can bend the rules of the universe that way.

That's just my take, and my explanation. Interacting with others IC may be easier. It isn't like the animations thing. Animations are cosmetic. Superficial. The game mechanics come under the Effect, not Cause. You get to make up any Cause you like as an RPer. Your toughness is always on, and doesn't need cheast-beating? Of course. neither does mine. But that you have Toughness as in resistance to certain damage types is Effect. Explain it anyway you like, including ignoring the animations and we're all happy. But you can't deny the effects of having toughness if you have it on, and we see the effects. Not the SFX, but the effects.

Just like having the effect of a shedload more enhancements than any non-Incarnate level character can possibly have is an effect that would be hard and unfair to ignore.

Think he means more when players get access to their own 'Zeus thunders' and so on, you know room clearing 'WTF mega attacks' that are simply you know, beyond what a normal hero could do.

Take Marvel's Thor he flies and fights with a hammer, lots of heroes can do that, heck lots of street level characters can do that.

But when he busts out the state wide floods, thunderstorms and lightning blasts powers, or rainbow bridge and full Valkyrie back up, complete with Einhenjars and chariot with flying rams pulling it. Then it becomes so not street level.

Everything she makes does that though!

Ah my bad! My first example was a "Who's better at tanking" vs. Though the Level Shifts may swing it back to Incarnate Fans, that's also shifting the goalposts of what an Incarnate actually is as they're not immediately available.

The PvP argument was purely that I'd bet on WP/SS or Thugs/Poison over a lot of other Sets, even with Incarnate upgrades.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Far be it from me to contest the wisdom of Shadowe but I'm not sure this tallies well with what we've got in game already. Here's are some notes from Ashley McKnight:

and from her colleague Percy Winkley:

Both of these seem to suggest that an Incarnate is a completely separate origin to the existing five. So Origin + Awesome = Incarnate doesn't appear to hold up.

And although you're right about 'incarnate' being an adjective, we do have an example of it being used as a noun in CoX such as:



Blood of the Incarnate - A vial of blood from a recipient of the power of the Well of the Furies.

Now I haven't tested Ramiel's arc, mainly because we've got a character copy tool that falls over if anyone farts too hard next to it so I'm just using what we've got at the moment to form a view. And to be honest, there's a metric tonne of assumption involved with what we're discussing and until we've got all the information on the origin of the powers, what an Incarnate really is and what it means for our characters, I'm beginning to think it's pointless to carry on.

As far as I'm concerned, the only real thing to remember is that the Well has become part of current game lore and that some people will now hold Incarnate levels of power (if they didn't already through RP means). As for how they resolve it or what my characters think of them, that's up to the individuals concerned to decide.


And don't worry Amerikatt, I don't think anyone reads my posts either. People are far more interested in winning some OOC bunfight.

Yes that makes perfect sense but I'm still considering the hole option. It's warm and cosy and no-one will question my right to be an Incarnate of Hermits. :P

Oh, good.
And yes, the hole is a safe option....I can just mount a giant flamethrower and sit behind the power cell, all nice and warm, toasting anyone who wants to try and make me come out...bwhehehe.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

This is what I've been saying all along. The ONLY person who gets a say in how they interpret what Incarnate means for their characters, is the player. No one else's opinion matters one tiniest little bit.

Unless it directly contradicts someone elses character.

Which can easily be avoided or worked around, anyways. So there shouldnt be much of a problem (hopefully)

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I think that's reasonably unlikely. My way with Ellie, for example, cannot possibly impugn on anyone else's character at all.

I think the world's nations would finally unite for the common goal of orbitally bombing the smeg out of the Well before any of the BubbleClones would ever be allowed near it!

From having faced Reichsman's Fist of Tyranny attack in game, you are probably right about the power level. But the Fist of Tyranny doesn't drain his endurance and drop all his toggles which is a huge difference mechanically to a nuke. But whether it is more or less powerful is entirely missing the point.

Your blaster can presumably do both. And from what we've seen, could use the Incarnate AoE effect and immediately follow it with their good old trusty Nuke on top! It is an additional big AoE in addition to everything possible for you at 50.

Non-blasty ATs who have never had a nuke suddenly get one, even if it is more the mini-nuke of the Archery or Dual Pistols set, including the lack of endurance crash, rather than a full on Nova.


No.

But it is no different to seeing an 8 foot man standing at the bus stop and thinking to yourself "He's incredibly tall". Does it mean you have to tell him so? Not unless you have a real lack of impulse control. My characters noting that someone is abnormally powerful, even for a super-hero, when it becomes as readily apparent as seeing that an 8 foot chap is tall is simply a thing called Roleplay.

This is exactly the same straw-man argument as the first point above. This is not an either/or situation. This is about a character with as many powers and abilities as a level 50 super-hero can get suddenly getting more. Its about taking the possible, and then going past it.

A character with one rocket launcher is not an example of this. The character with three rocket launchers, a full auto assault rifle, a flamethrower, pistols, grenade launcher and a crate of 60 grenades, three crates of assorted rockets, who claims to be just a regular soldier is the example. You're noticing something beyond the possible (or not noticing if it is not apparent IC) just like noticing that the 8 ft guy is tall.

I'm actually certain that some RPers will continue to have concept builds such that even if Incarnate are much harder to notice as such in play. The ones with the 'less offensive powers' you suggest. Maybe they took the basic +End alpha slot enhancement on a build that wasn't very well slotted for endurance before. That would be harder to notice, especially if the reason the endurance wasn't well slotted before was because they'd been overslotting damage and losing most of the effect to ED.

That comes under the 'Not immediately obvious' thing. The character's build still has effectively a lot more slots in every power than is possible to a non-Incarnate, but we cannot see that effect because the extra power is lost through poor slotting choices. The character's extra ability is one that isn't easy to see in interaction. But that's assuming just one alpha slot, and that someone who made a build that pushed the ED on Damage wouldn't take the +Damage alpha ...

In that very specific and individual case, my character probably would not notice that theirs had Incarnate-level powers, because effectively they don't. Through poor slotting they negated the extra slots.

That's like where some very gimped 'character concepts' builds are noticeably weaker than most heroes. My characters do notice when another is continually the first to fall, weaker than the sidekicks, and those characters will note to themselves "He's a bit weak for a Hero. Probably does okay against muggers, and thought he'd be fine on our quest to battle Rularu. Wish to hell we'd brought someone more capable.".

If they are using Warburg nukes IC then I'm sure they are also providing a great explanation for them. They will also have at most, what? Three shots? And all different types. They can call one big nuke damage attack down, and then its spent. Maybe they can also call down a buff nuke and a debuff nuke, but the damage one is done and dusted.

That's a lot different to calling on an Orbital station all of their own, time after time after time, endlessly if needs be. Calling down strike after strike after strike just minutes apart. That's someone who rather than having a Warburg Nuke could effectively out-gun all of Warburg! Maybe his orbital canon isn't doing as much damage as a single nuke, but he has an endless, ever replenishing supply.

Not noticing that a character you've teamed with for years suddenly is twice as accurate, can call on an orbital plasma cannon seemingly at will, fights Statesman as though sparring with a Troll minion, and can solo the entire Lady Grey task force mission without needing a single bit of support, healing, or rest ... that would be silly sounding to me.

I'm fairly certain that most people are going to use even just the Alpha slot in the manner that is most effective, most noticeable, for their character. I know I am aiming to get one of the rarer boosts, with the ability to treat opponents as one level lower in regards to hit chances, damage, acc, etc, etc, on pretty much any character I bother to get the alpha slot on. And that is just the first slot of many.

And yet there's a further gap between this and a built-in personal Judgement power - Aurelian, for example, being able to unleash the fury of the Sun God in a burst of radiant power. Not only does it hit just as hard as Alpha's orbital spacegun, but it can be used anywhere. Odds are good that, IC, Alpha can't get Reason to follow him to other dimensions, or back in time. And, of course, if you're underground when you fire it, all you're doing is saving someone the trouble of digging your grave. Aurelian has none of those problems, but the distinction is purely an IC one. IC, is Aurelian not justified in considering his power superior?

Don't get me wrong, I plan to do something quite similar to explain Autumnfox's Judgement power (support fire from an off-screen gunship), which, IC, has even more limitations. I'm waiting to see how the power looks and works before I decide, though.