Wow. I never realized yalls got so...serious about all this. >_> No wonder my RP style didn't mesh well with yours. That's some very different stuff than what this side of the pond does. If someone's willing to take a suggestion though, I think I got something for ya:
When you start an RP, whether game- or board-based, post the rules.
Let people know what you expect from them when you present the setting. Whether you want to stick strictly to what can be done in-game, branch out free-form, use the game as a general guideline, or anywhere in between - just tell people that before they get involved. Then if someone doesn't like that set of rules, they won't come in, and there won't be any of these arguments. 
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Wait... What? No... Arguments?|
Originally Posted by DeviousMe
and there won't be any of these arguments.
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*scratches head*
Hang on.... Let me think about this for a second.
No.
Arguments.
Hmmmm.....
Nope... Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense at all, y'know? We're Europeans, dude. We've been arguing for centuries longer than you colonials have even had a country!
Asking us to not argue is like... I dunno... Asking an American to give up his gun! Does not compute!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
In that case, you might be interested to know that I'm from Austria. Though if you asked me to give up my gun...
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
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Ooooh! A mainlander! *shoots* |
Originally Posted by DeviousMe
In that case, you might be interested to know that I'm from Austria. Though if you asked me to give up my gun...
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Ow! You inconsiderate jerk! Do you have any idea how much that stings?!
*loads pad woon sen into satellite cannon*
Suck flavorful cooking, y'dang Brit!
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Wrong, actually.
As far as I've seen, Omy wants his level 50 character (or at least some of them) to NOT be treated like that. Like his fully levelled Fallout character to be treated like someone still wandering around Megaton, or an Oblivion character to have never left Imperial City, to use your own analogies. Really, theres only so far you can push game mecahnics until they become boring, restrictive and, the most important one, not fun. I'm not talking about level 1 characters having insane power, because that is just pure power-tripping and god-moding. But, to use my example, my currently level 26 Tanker is the same who was previously level 50. Due to game mechanics, I ended up re-rolling him. If your now saying that he has to be weaker than he was simply due to a re-roll, at least IC, then I shall simply laugh at that, and you know it. |
Honestly?
You should of made the re-roll an IC event. Something weakened him and he now has to learn how to deal with the changes in his powers/equipment.
I did when I rerolled Twilighter.
Hell they do it in comics all the time.
Otherwise to use the Pen and Paper example again, you are wanting everyone and the game mechanics, to treat your character as if he's still your paragon pathed max level paladin, when it says level ten barbarian on his sheet.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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It's one of the downsides of having a shared RP environment that encompasses the whole world. Whereas from what I've seen, RP on the NA servers is more 'instanced'. This happens every time a new game event unfolds such as the Rikti invasions or in this case, Incarnates and the Well returning to the world. From what I can see, some people will use the Incarnate system to justify their already existing RP abilities, others will explore the content IC. Some of my characters will do both. |
Originally Posted by DeviousMe
Wow. I never realized yalls got so...serious about all this.
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And as far as I'm concerned, I don't give two hoots about who's an Incarnate and who's not. If Incarnate is just another origin along with the current five, then consider how often that matter comes up in regular RP. I don't think I've ever had an RP conversation when the category of our origin or AT or enhancement sets came into play.
I'm just sad that what started as a friendly discussion about how people with RP Incarnates has turned into another bunfight, so for what it's worth OP, sorry.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Funny thing about Incarnates...
Ellie was rolled back in June 2005, way before anyone thought we'd ever get any kind of incarnate archetype.
The "human" name of her Kheldian symbiote is "Mikoshi".
A Mikoshi is a portable Shinto shrine that serves as the vehicle for a divine spirit.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Ahhhh... 'fond' memories of the That Game's RP forums.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Then you shouldn't get them to level 50 in the first place, find a comfortable spot where in the game storyline they are still stopping street crime, rather than twisted mutant rocks and dimensional doubles.
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Once, I got in an argument with someone who said if my character was at a jousting ground type place, then they were doing that IC and I should have no objection if someone started RPing with them on the spot.
I made the following points:
A: My character was a mage, thus charging around on a horse wasn't IC for him.
B: The prizes associated are only obtainable there, like some non-combat pets, mounts, titles and items.
C: The idea that I should stop doing something fun and enjoyable OOC because it isn't IC is ridiculous.
They whined and stamped their feet and put their parts on and said I was terrible for having the audacity to enjoy playing the game OOC and rebuffing any efforts someone would make to RP with me while I was doing such.
If people want to do that with their own characters? Fine by me.
If people start telling me I should do that, and that I'm bad for not doing it?
They become the 'Stop Having Fun' guy. At which point I shrug, and generally dismiss what they say as being chock full of grade A, home-made, old fashioned good-time Stupid. It comes in an easy-open ring pull can.
Original and Best.
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My IC reasoning is that he (along with the rest of SABRE team IC) are taking a break from the Warzone and such to get some R&R while also mentoring other, younger Heroes and Heroines. I can and will create reasons as needs be and IF needs be. |
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Honestly?
You should of made the re-roll an IC event. Something weakened him and he now has to learn how to deal with the changes in his powers/equipment. I did when I rerolled Twilighter. Hell they do it in comics all the time. Otherwise to use the Pen and Paper example again, you are wanting everyone and the game mechanics, to treat your character as if he's still your paragon pathed max level paladin, when it says level ten barbarian on his sheet. |
But that doesnt magically destroy all the knowledge he has from when he was level 50 as Invul/EM. And if you tell me he has to magically forget it, I will laugh in your face.
Oh, and as Z says; Fun > Everything else
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
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Buns?!|
Originally Posted by Dante
It's one of the downsides of having a shared RP environment that encompasses the whole world. Whereas from what I've seen, RP on the NA servers is more 'instanced'. This happens every time a new game event unfolds such as the Rikti invasions or in this case, Incarnates and the Well returning to the world. From what I can see, some people will use the Incarnate system to justify their already existing RP abilities, others will explore the content IC. Some of my characters will do both.
And as far as I'm concerned, I don't give two hoots about who's an Incarnate and who's not. If Incarnate is just another origin along with the current five, then consider how often that matter comes up in regular RP. I don't think I've ever had an RP conversation when the category of our origin or AT or enhancement sets came into play. I'm just sad that what started as a friendly discussion about how people with RP Incarnates has turned into another bunfight, so for what it's worth OP, sorry. |
That won't do, that won't do at all.
Someone fetch me the crumpets and the battle scones!!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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As Dante said it is sadly one of the disadvantages of a shared Universe. |
Originally Posted by DeviousMe
Wow. I never realized yalls got so...serious about all this. >_> No wonder my RP style didn't mesh well with yours. That's some very different stuff than what this side of the pond does. If someone's willing to take a suggestion though, I think I got something for ya:
When you start an RP, whether game- or board-based, post the rules. Let people know what you expect from them when you present the setting. Whether you want to stick strictly to what can be done in-game, branch out free-form, use the game as a general guideline, or anywhere in between - just tell people that before they get involved. Then if someone doesn't like that set of rules, they won't come in, and there won't be any of these arguments. |
While it is great for things like the Rikti Invasion (back when they first happened on the EU forums we had a topic called 'Zero hour' which was stories about what happened with characters when the Rikti suddenly arrived and the 'Council of War' where the leaders of all the biggest Supergroups and Villaingroups got together and coordinated the fight back against the Rikti) for things like this it can be a pain in the backside where the interpretations can vary a lot from person to person.
I was about to post how any of the American RPers were simply going 'and this is what will happen with regards my characters' and leaving it at that while the EU ones were arguing.
Perhaps we can learn from our American brethren.
Also not all RP is taken THIS seriously, take a look at my stories 'The Adventures of Lord Horace Hattings' people seem to love him because he is such a devilmaycare beyond the impossible British Gent which just wouldn't fly in serious RP but people like him none the less.
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Actually... He kinda gets up my nose. |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Adventures of Lord Horace Hattings' people seem to love him because he is such a devilmaycare beyond the impossible British Gent which just wouldn't fly in serious RP but people like him none the less.
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
To be less whimsical and cutesy about it:
Yes, there are limits of suspension of disbelief. CB's axe he's grinding against Omega, I believe is pointless. Boundless Skies is inspired by, not an actual Exalted character with all the power thereof. We all take inspiration from things. Grey Whisper has her invisibility powers. Heck, even Azure Arrow is level 40, but he concentrates on Skyway/Kings Row and mostly helps the people in need there, and fends off gangers.
If it is really too much suspension of disbelief that he can be level 40 and do that, then the problem is not with me.
If you have your own little method for blanking/bending things that mess with your suspension of disbelief, fine, use it! That's good, and I hope it cuts down on stress for you.
When people start hammering it on the boards like it's gospel truth, then that's less fine. Tone of posting does not help matters. It just causes more stress, more arguments and makes people want to throw their hands up and chuck the towel in.
Some of the things that have been posted here smacks of 'You're doing it wrong', to playing the game and roleplaying in it. And it isn't. It's just a different style of playing.
A lot of what I do, game content wise, is OOC. My characters don't have auras thanks to some cyber-alien-plant crafted implant. Fusebox doesn't normally fight the Circle, but that doesn't mean I'll throw away a tip mission just because the enemies within do not fall under her remit. (And the luck I have with tip drops would make it foolish to.)
This is the same in that Other Game. My character (A mage providing arcane expertise to an investigation firm) is not running about collecting Wombat Toes IC or defeating big bads.
If someone tells me "You shouldn't do that if it's not IC." I'll reply with "It's not IC anyway, so be cool, bruddah."
Unless they're saying "You should level another mage to max level if you want to do that! >o<"
In which case I'll tell them just where to sheath a glistening plus five sword of feeblemindedness. And the scabbard too.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
This is the same in that Other Game. My character (A mage providing arcane expertise to an investigation firm) is not running about collecting Wombat Toes IC or defeating big bads.
If someone tells me "You shouldn't do that if it's not IC." I'll reply with "It's not IC anyway, so be cool, bruddah." Unless they're saying "You should level another mage to max level if you want to do that! >o<" In which case I'll tell them just where to sheath a glistening plus five sword of feeblemindedness. And the scabbard too. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Quote:
There is a difference between a hero having a preferred hunting ground and saying that you character is still 'street level' in power/skill/what ever at 40+.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
To be less whimsical and cutesy about it:
Yes, there are limits of suspension of disbelief. CB's axe he's grinding against Omega, I believe is pointless. Boundless Skies is inspired by, not an actual Exalted character with all the power thereof. We all take inspiration from things. Grey Whisper has her invisibility powers. Heck, even Azure Arrow is level 40, but he concentrates on Skyway/Kings Row and mostly helps the people in need there, and fends off gangers. If it is really too much suspension of disbelief that he can be level 40 and do that, then the problem is not with me. |
One is saying that you character prefers to fight street level crime, or prefers to help with local problems rather than costumed villains. That is fine, that is characterization.
But saying that your 40+ character, doesn't actually have any of the powers/skills/whatever that the game part of the RPG says he does, that IMO is asking every single person you meet to suspend their disbelief.
It goes even further if we consider the IC ways some one could learn of your character, the hero registration stuff? the threat system? Both of those have to be wrong whne you are wandering around in costume and some one calls out to you.
"Oh Captain Aamzing, Freakshow just kidnapped by brother, can you help me get him back?"
"Sorry Fletcher Lad, Freakshow are out of my league, anything more than a Hellion is beyond me!"
And Z, given that Omy whined about how unfair the game system was, and how it should of gone differently due to who Boundless is, when he used Boundless in an Arena match against Baron Eternity, I'd say my point was accurate.
I'm just saying that your Security level/Threat level should match your characters 'power' level, you want to play the low powered hero? Keep them low level. You want to be beyond the mightiest mortal, making people tremble in your presence? Get level 50 before you start RPing like that.
The security/threat system is an IC thing, its presented to us in the game universe, and not purely a game mechanic. Which means IMO it shouldn't just be hand waved away like a pure game mechanic, as its part of the CoX verses setting.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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If that's what she claims her character is, that is for HER to decide, nobody else.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
There is a difference between a hero having a preferred hunting ground and saying that you character is still 'street level' in power/skill/what ever at 40+.
One is saying that you character prefers to fight street level crime, or prefers to help with local problems rather than costumed villains. That is fine, that is characterization. But saying that your 40+ character, doesn't actually have any of the powers/skills/whatever that the game part of the RPG says he does, that IMO is asking every single person you meet to suspend their disbelief. |
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
It goes even further if we consider the IC ways some one could learn of your character, the hero registration stuff? the threat system? Both of those have to be wrong whne you are wandering around in costume and some one calls out to you.
"Oh Captain Aamzing, Freakshow just kidnapped by brother, can you help me get him back?" "Sorry Fletcher Lad, Freakshow are out of my league, anything more than a Hellion is beyond me!" And Z, given that Omy whined about how unfair the game system was, and how it should of gone differently due to who Boundless is, when he used Boundless in an Arena match against Baron Eternity, I'd say my point was accurate. |
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
I'm just saying that your Security level/Threat level should match your characters 'power' level, you want to play the low powered hero? Keep them low level. You want to be beyond the mightiest mortal, making people tremble in your presence? Get level 50 before you start RPing like that.
The security/threat system is an IC thing, its presented to us in the game universe, and not purely a game mechanic. Which means IMO it shouldn't just be hand waved away like a pure game mechanic, as its part of the CoX verses setting. |
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
Who said anything about knowledge?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
My IC reasoning is that he (along with the rest of SABRE team IC) are taking a break from the Warzone and such to get some R&R while also mentoring other, younger Heroes and Heroines. I can and will create reasons as needs be and IF needs be.
But that doesnt magically destroy all the knowledge he has from when he was level 50 as Invul/EM. And if you tell me he has to magically forget it, I will laugh in your face. Oh, and as Z says; Fun > Everything else |
The rating also applies to stuff like survivability, and how well they can deal with a threat.
You say that they are taking a break and he no longer has the team behind him?
That's an understandable and plausible reason why they'd think he'd be less able to deal with different ratings of threats.
Trying to explain it a little better.
Mercs/traps MM level 50, rerolls as a AR/Traps corr.
IC this loss of threat level could simply be treated as the world/system not viewing him solo as much as threat as him + Bravo team. He's still the same person but now he's on his own.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Not everything we encounter in-game flat-out has to be taken IC.
Sorry, but it really, really, REALLY doesn't.
Want proof?
Create a new first level character, take them to Talos Island and go watch how many CIVILIANS are able to hold off Tsoo. Then try it yourself.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
The security/threat system has NOTHING to do with RP. It's purely a game mechanic and has little to no bearing on RP if you don't want it to. Once again, you're trying to tell people how to play their characters. If we're getting in to THAT, then I'll tell you go kill off Tomb permanently.
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Frankly that is BS!
It's referred to IC throughout the game.
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Originally Posted by Gaussian
Drummer said that you had an impressive record, and I agree. However, I need something just a bit more impressive. Like, about 45 security or threat levels worth of impressive. I'll see you when you're ready. |
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Originally Posted by Everett Daniels
Sorry, but my next case is pretty sensitive. Maybe when you reach Security Level 10. |
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Originally Posted by Julius the Troll
No way, Jose. Nothing for you until Security Level 10. |
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Originally Posted by Doc Delilah
I'm sorry, kiddo, but you'll need to be at least security level 20 before you can handle what I have for you.
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Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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You're confusing game mechanics and story with roleplayer ICness. That's probably why you're having such a problem understanding what people are on about here.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Frankly that is BS!
It's refereed IC throughout the game. As an example. |
Player IC has NOTHING to do game lore unless the player WANTS it to be. Otherwise, pretty much no one's characters would be possible, including your own.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Azure Arrow is a level 40 character at the moment.
His power sets are Trick Arrows and Archery.
He is baseline human. He has a few gadgets, a bit of padding in his costume, and that's it.
OOC he can take down huge demons, monsters spawned by 'nature', ghosts and other sort of things.
IC? He can't. He could try, and he'd likely get torn to pieces. So he sticks to what he knows.
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What makes a Freakshow gun less dangerous than a Hellion gun? Both can kill, unless you have the abilities to negate that. Azure Arrow can take on Freakshow. He has difficulties with the more cybernetic ones, and is reluctant to break out the EMP arrows due to collateral damage, but he can defeat them.|
"Oh Captain Aamzing, Freakshow just kidnapped by brother, can you help me get him back?" "Sorry Fletcher Lad, Freakshow are out of my league, anything more than a Hellion is beyond me!" |
If it was like this:
"Oh Captain Amazing, the Circle of Thorns just kidnapped by brother, can you help me get him back?"
This would likely be the response:
"I'll call some allies of mine in."
In an IC team, Azure Arrow can provide covering fire, and help soften the enemies for more capable people to take down.
IC Solo, he cannot. He could slow them down at best, and at risk to himself.
A Hellion gun is as dangerous as a Family gun is as dangerous as a Malta Gun, to him.
Does he go to one of the trainers IC when he needs to update his equipment or bring in a new arrow?
No.
I have a similar issue with the mediporters and their instant rejuvenation. It takes the risk completely out of heroing. I can accept that there's tech that teleports you if certain conditions are met. I can accept that there's tech that can help you to heal. I can't accept that someone can teleport away, step out and be as fresh as daisies and ready to fight again.
So what you are saying Z, is for some reason that the US governments method of rating a hero is IC'ly mistaken in Arrows case?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Levelling system = Required MMO game mechanic
Level gate contacts and content = Required MMO game mechanic
While I don't have too much trouble with the mediport system itself, in some cases going instantly back to 100% health does = required MMO game mechanic
Same reason you can't do x, y or z, until your teamed up with a mentor, then its all handwaved, no matter what (with the exception of TFs, again for game mechanic reasons)
So, no, that arguement doesn't hold water.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ultimately, this is a game, and the game mechanics, flawed or not, are the laws of the universe. Until they change, at which point the new mechanics are the laws of the universe.
Of course we roleplayers bend those laws, and positively tie knots in mere guidelines, but that's where consensus and agreement comes in. Without agreement, if one player takes the actuality as having happened, well, he's technically in the right. It is his right to do so. Just as it would be in your right to retcon and say the entire thing didn't happen. (And yes, this can lead to situations where the characters end up in separate realities, unable to interact further, and a mess with characters they both know).
We'll always have to bend the rules to allow RP to happen. Of course we will, when Johnny Newhero is about to bust Frostfire's group of outcasts in The Hollows just five minutes after Bobby Oldhand, Johnny's SG leader, has been working with Frostfire as a redeemed Hero.
Thus we will always need to agree a comfortable consensus on what our shared realities will actually be, and avoid certain areas handily where consensus is not so clear or easy.
Most of the arguments in the thread are not things that are actually arising for us. At least not right now. Omy's never wanted to PvP any of my characters that I know of, and isn't likely to. I might never be on an IC TF with Wrench Wench and think "Ooh, she's powerful, maybe as powerful as Statesman, in her way".
By and large we are Unionite Roleplayers and we get along. Either by being agreeable and fair with each other, or at worst by simply avoiding groups that play by very different rules to those we like or are comfortable with.
The arguments we're down to now seem to be pretty much just rampant last-wordism. So, considering that I think I have adequately put forward my own opinions and views on how we treat Incarnate as an IC thing, I'm going to bow out of this thread as of now. Start a new thread if there's anything else you want to ask of me. I'll leave this one to whoever wants that last word.
http://www.savecoh.com/