The level boost could easily be explained with tech and ingenuity. Simply, my character will be getting smarter, more tactical, as well as making subtle improvements to his technology.
*shrug* I could go into a more scientific explanation, but I will be most certainly having troubles explaining some of the later powers.
Also, given the powers don't exemplar down, it's very easy to say it's rleated to reacting to a greater threat that needs more equipment/bigger guns/more powerful spells/Moar Dakka! etc etc. Because its ONLY used for Incarnate content and level 50 stuff.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
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Right! Cut your post down to the points I'd like to argue against, see there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here between the way many people veiw this and the way you view this.|
Originally Posted by Ammon
But it is no different to seeing an 8 foot man standing at the bus stop and thinking to yourself "He's incredibly tall". Does it mean you have to tell him so? Not unless you have a real lack of impulse control. My characters noting that someone is abnormally powerful, even for a super-hero, when it becomes as readily apparent as seeing that an 8 foot chap is tall is simply a thing called Roleplay.
This is exactly the same straw-man argument as the first point above. This is not an either/or situation. This is about a character with as many powers and abilities as a level 50 super-hero can get suddenly getting more. Its about taking the possible, and then going past it. A character with one rocket launcher is not an example of this. The character with three rocket launchers, a full auto assault rifle, a flamethrower, pistols, grenade launcher and a crate of 60 grenades, three crates of assorted rockets, who claims to be just a regular soldier is the example. You're noticing something beyond the possible (or not noticing if it is not apparent IC) just like noticing that the 8 ft guy is tall. I'm actually certain that some RPers will continue to have concept builds such that even if Incarnate are much harder to notice as such in play. The ones with the 'less offensive powers' you suggest. Maybe they took the basic +End alpha slot enhancement on a build that wasn't very well slotted for endurance before. That would be harder to notice, especially if the reason the endurance wasn't well slotted before was because they'd been overslotting damage and losing most of the effect to ED. That's like where some very gimped 'character concepts' builds are noticeably weaker than most heroes. My characters do notice when another is continually the first to fall, weaker than the sidekicks, and those characters will note to themselves "He's a bit weak for a Hero. Probably does okay against muggers, and thought he'd be fine on our quest to battle Rularu. Wish to hell we'd brought someone more capable.". If they are using Warburg nukes IC then I'm sure they are also providing a great explanation for them. They will also have at most, what? Three shots? And all different types. They can call one big nuke damage attack down, and then its spent. Maybe they can also call down a buff nuke and a debuff nuke, but the damage one is done and dusted. That's a lot different to calling on an Orbital station all of their own, time after time after time, endlessly if needs be. Calling down strike after strike after strike just minutes apart. That's someone who rather than having a Warburg Nuke could effectively out-gun all of Warburg! Maybe his orbital canon isn't doing as much damage as a single nuke, but he has an endless, ever replenishing supply. Not noticing that a character you've teamed with for years suddenly is twice as accurate, can call on an orbital plasma cannon seemingly at will, fights Statesman as though sparring with a Troll minion, and can solo the entire Lady Grey task force mission without needing a single bit of support, healing, or rest ... that would be silly sounding to me. |
Mainly that while IC teaming what you see on your screen is exactly what happens. Like all those non-bullet proof characters taking fullsides of Council minigun fire or rocket launchers to the face! (Hey by your logic my characters saw it happen therefore it happened by damn!).
Heck if you want to bring PvP into it (Though they're stupidly effective in PvE too) a small group of thugs is the most powerful force in the universe. Go fight a Thugs MM if you don't belive me.
Or heck there's all those thugs you fight you can punch with super strength, set on fire, freeze ina block of ice and wail on with spines/swords/claws and they'll be just fine! As you say yourself, our characters see this happen in game, therefore we msut treat it as actually happening!
Do you start to see why some people are having a bit of a problem with you arbitrarily deciding without thier concent that they're Incarantes simpley because you may have seen them use a certian power (Which they may have OOC!) or because you're judging them as too accurate or damaging?
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Maybe it's just me, but I can't see where in that quote Ammon said that in-game appearances have to match up with in-character interpretation. He mentioned a character visibly loaded down with weapons and ammo; of course, in-game, weapons are invisible until you draw them. But in-character, a bystander might spot the Portent with his trajector rifle slung across his back, and wonder what he carries that for when he has enough firepower in his gloves to take down a Malta titan. And even if there isn't a cue that obvious from simple observation, when you see a hero go up against a monster ten times his or her size and win, you're going to get the impression that that character is a cut above.|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
Right! Cut your post down to the points I'd like to argue against, see there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here between the way many people veiw this and the way you view this.
Mainly that while IC teaming what you see on your screen is exactly what happens. Like all those non-bullet proof characters taking fullsides of Council minigun fire or rocket launchers to the face! (Hey by your logic my characters saw it happen therefore it happened by damn!). Heck if you want to bring PvP into it (Though they're stupidly effective in PvE too) a small group of thugs is the most powerful force in the universe. Go fight a Thugs MM if you don't belive me. Or heck there's all those thugs you fight you can punch with super strength, set on fire, freeze ina block of ice and wail on with spines/swords/claws and they'll be just fine! As you say yourself, our characters see this happen in game, therefore we msut treat it as actually happening! Do you start to see why some people are having a bit of a problem with you arbitrarily deciding without thier concent that they're Incarantes simpley because you may have seen them use a certian power (Which they may have OOC!) or because you're judging them as too accurate or damaging? |
As Shadowe has made clearer than I managed to, being "a cut above" is all that Incarnate really means. You've accessed a deeper extent of the powers - the superhuman potential - that you already had. If you don't want your character to do that IC, but still want the benefits of being Incarnate in-game, that's fine by me. Just be ready to apply some fudge.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
In the part where he described the guy on your team having a concept build and so falling over a lot more often, it sure sounds like IC teaming which is taking the game literally to me!
Ah, ok, sorry. I missed that paragraph.
I'd... semi-disagree with Ammon on that point. When I'm teaming IC, I treat a defeat as a defeat, but "defeat" is a deliberately vague term. Maybe in one case, it's a serious injury; in another, the character is just winded or dazed.
A character getting beaten up a lot on a team doesn't say to me, IC, that they're weak or struggling, just that they're getting hit a lot. Put it down to bad luck, enemies with a grudge, whatever you like.
Edit: If, on the other hand, the player's intention is that the character is actually weak or using bad tactics, it's up to them to convey that through roleplay, not just by getting themselves killed. Otherwise I'm inclined to overlook it, with all the dying I do at the best of times.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
Just like if you happened to be OOC doing far more damage then you would in terms of concept it can also be ignored, there is a disconenct you have to acknowledeg here, which is what my post was trying to point out in a bit of a ranty way >.>
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Depends on which 'this' you have in mind. |
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here between the way many people veiw this and the way you view this.
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The subject of the thread is the IC interpretation of Incarnate level power, and on that we've been getting closer and closer to consensus, with more and more people stating agreement with my points that:
- The Well neededn't be magical/mystical
- The Well can be substituted with anything that fits as a suitable substitute.
- We can't see Incarnatehood directly, but can see visible Effects thereof
I was the first to say "sees the Well as being more than a stone shaft around a borehole that you draw water from" for instance, and I don't see much argument to that now. I pointed out that The Well is canon for how these powers are coming into the world, and I see general acceptance of that now. And I pointed out that despite the Well being canon, it didn't have to be the only path, and that too has seemingly been generally accepted.
I see plenty of agreement that whether you are or are not Incarnate is a cause, not an Effect, in itself, and is invisible as a game mechanic. And that the Effect can be the visible, IC, can be reacted to part. e.g. going toe to toe with Statesman and not being massively outclassed, if done IC, will be notable IC.
Largely, as Shadowe, Wisdom Incarnate, has declared, we're all saying the same thing on the issue of Incarnates.
I can only assume therefore that your 'this' is one of the side issues, and presumably one directly in the post you quoted.
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Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
Mainly that while IC teaming what you see on your screen is exactly what happens.
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Firstly, as Wolfram already pointed out, the specific example you actually quoted in your own post, about the rocket launcher, is proof of precisely the opposite. On screen, the character has just the one weapon at a time, and that disappears into thin air the moment he's not using it.
It is roleplay, that ignores the on-screen appearance, and creates an artificial but immersive reality, that says the character who doesn't have pocket dimensions in which to store equipment is actually carrying a heck of a lot of guns and ammunition, and that the weight might be an issue that should be ... you know, roleplayed.
It is also part of roleplay to notice things that break immersive play. If you weren't roleplaying, and creating that artificial reality, suspending disbelief, and getting into the 'reality that your character is experiencing', you wouldn't care how/where/why an effect comes about. You'd just say "Because the game mechanics make it so".
I also pointed out earlier, that just like Fanservice, my character doesn't beat their chest to have the effects of toughness, IC. But they do have the Effect of toughness. Even if I explain it not as resistance to damage, but as a form of deflection, or even extreme powers of good luck, or some limited foresight. Those are all causes for the same effect - they take less damage from certain attacks.
Considering that your entire post was just an attack based on this obvious falsehood, there's really not a lot to respond to, other than to ask you to tone down the false accusations and play nicely if you want to be taken seriously. Thanks.
http://www.savecoh.com/
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It would indeed sound like IC teaming. |
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
In the part where he described the guy on your team having a concept build and so falling over a lot more often, it sure sounds like IC teaming which is taking the game literally to me!
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That's what we do at The Militia, The Cadre, and every other RPSG and RPVG I've played in. Its the bit I like most. I also love doing IC TFs and SFs, and have done ever since classic ones like the MMB Rikti Raid (an IC version of the LGTF). The Militia even do a little IC PvP every now and again, sometimes portraying IC training/sparring between teammates, and even more rarely as ways of facing off against a particular boss/villain that we want to do a lot more than just basic fight AI, including talk.
In some of those IC teaming situations, defeats may be taken as defeats (to some extent) requiring medical aid, and in others, merely as being knocked down, winded, whatever as Wolfram said (in which case, any means of getting back up, even to a hospital trip, is assumed to be OOC).
But we do react to them being knocked down, stunned, winded or whatever IC. "Hey, you okay? Looked like you took a nasty hit there!"
On the MMB LGTF, we were told in advance that it was going to be hardcore roleplay rules, and that if you went down in a mission, you would need to be gotten up by teammates in that mission or you were gone. The character Dr Helios did indeed die on that run IIRC. It was very moving for all. Ask Zortel - she was on that adventure too.
I generally find it is rare for RPers to have serious IC repurcussions to missions, that most RPers prefer to avoid any risks of potentially losing a character due to in-game situatios, even where it is an IC mission event. I'd like to see more of it, personally, as it can lead to a lot of high-adrenaline gaming, and help make players feel the risks their characters are taking.
Now, if you are RPing on a mission, and your character is the obvious gimp, really weak, and being totally carried by the rest of the team, then that is an actuality. Of course you expect the rest of the IC team to notice that they are giving you medical attention, or at least helping you up off the floor and dusting you down in every single encounter. If you don't like that fact, then stick to Forum based RP, and leave IC missions for characters that actually can perform remotely realistically - the RP equivalent of acting in the action scenes, rather than just writing them.
I can see how that wouldn't necessarily suit certain RPers. Most especially those who create over-powered characters that cannot possibly ever be created in-game in even the broadest sense. People who've spent years building a mythos that their hero can one-shot any boss without breaking sweat, but in fact can't face 2 even-conning minions at the same time without breaking insps. Cool. Those types of people are not in the RP groups that I am. And I don't team with them twice if I can help it.
Several of us in the Militia group, and others brought in by dint of The Guild of Gentlemen Adventurers, are going to be running the Alpha Slot arc IC, with just a modicum of plot twisting to fit our own story. We are then intending to run a lot more IC TFs, what with wanting the shards etc. Its a lot of fun. IF any RPer out there hasn't tried it, and fancies giving it a go, feel free to drop me a line, or get in touch with The Militia (blueside) or the Cadre (redside) groups for some IC teaming including IC missions and TFs.
http://www.savecoh.com/
I am aware of IC teaming, I have done IC teaming, now this may be because a text medium makes it very hard to judge just what tone you're speaking in, but from what I'm reading it sounds a lot like condescension.
Now I'm not arguing the Well points here because, and this may come as a shock, I'm happy with the explinations we've reached thus far, esepcially the one where most of us are in agreement that he choice of if our character is effected by teh Well or not is our own and not some person pulling that we must be because we have x in game effect.
My post may have sounded a lot like a lot of false accusations there, and for that I apologise, but it's just you struck a nerve. For you see I interpeted what you said (Perhaps wrongly, for which I again apologise) as the ever annoying "But I can do x ingame, therefore I can say I'm doing/I've done it IC!". This is where all the things about things that happen in game that don't make any sesnse popped up, because I have a big long list of them that I break out whenever this topic comes up, but perhaps again this was not the intent and this is neither the place or the time to focus on that.
Now, let me try and make the point I was trying to make here, and yes this is trying to be an actual serious point here.
Lets take my lvl 47 Crabspider for a moment and pit her against my lvl twenty-somthing Tank, now in an OOC fight or from a game mechnics point of view the Tank here has no hope. However from an IC perspective those super strength punches could potentially cripple the Crabspider for months if not worse.
And if we put them on a team together, will the Tank fare worse? Of course, because they're only a lvl 20 tank! But if we're IC we can justify that as just the Tank taking all the hits meant for the Crabspider there (Which can lead to some amusing RP or even a discussion about why!) as opposed to the Crabspider thinking "Wow this Tank sucks". From the other point of view the Crabspdiers much higher damage output there wouldn't be interpreted as them being much more powerful or "Oh my word she's so strong, she must be an Incarnate" it could just be because while the Tank is taking hits, the Crabspdier is gunning down the badguys.
See niether character has to assume the other is stronger or weaker based of off OOC game mechnics there, which is what I'm trying to get across and having people assume things like that about my characters would really annoy me.
I hope this post clarified the point I was trying to make, and sorry once again that the other post was a bit of a non-sequiter.
Actually Omy...
Your threat/security level is an IC thing.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Oh really?|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Actually Omy...
Your threat/security level is an IC thing. |
Because when I had to re-rolled my Invul/EM tanker who was level 50 into Invul/Elec (After the EM nerf basically broke how he felt and played), he doesnt suddenly lose access to all the knowledge he has from getting to level 50. He doesn't suddenly lose his Omega level Clearance from the RWZ.
Another example is my Vanguard Colonel. I can't help it that the game doesnt let you pick VG armour at level 1. Thats a purely OOC fact I have to deal with. He's still a VG Colonel, and all that entails. But theres an OOC and IC detach there.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Oh really?
Because when I had to re-rolled my Invul/EM tanker who was level 50 into Invul/Elec (After the EM nerf basically broke how he felt and played), he doesnt suddenly lose access to all the knowledge he has from getting to level 50. He doesn't suddenly lose his Omega level Clearance from the RWZ. Another example is my Vanguard Colonel. I can't help it that the game doesnt let you pick VG armour at level 1. Thats a purely OOC fact I have to deal with. He's still a VG Colonel, and all that entails. But theres an OOC and IC detach there. |
Yes it is an in game universe thing.
A fact.
A rule.
You may not agree with it OOC, but it is a measuring stick used IC by the in game universe.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
It is however not a measure of power, as we've established. It isntead appears to be a rating of how much trust the government puts in you(Such as having to be 35 to get to the Warzone and tha teh higher arcs invovle secrets and conspriacies) or how much of a threat they view you as.
And of course once again we come to the problem of that might not fit with what we want it to, and that security levels almsot never come up in RP.
I mean really CB, it's like you're arguing for arguings sake here.
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Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
It is however not a measure of power, as we've established. It isntead appears to be a rating of how much trust the government puts in you(Such as having to be 35 to get to the Warzone and tha teh higher arcs invovle secrets and conspriacies) or how much of a threat they view you as.
And of course once again we come to the problem of that might not fit with what we want it to, and that security levels almsot never come up in RP. I mean really CB, it's like you're arguing for arguings sake here. |
Where are you getting the information that its not a measure of power from Omy?
The higher either of your ratings the more high profiled, dangerous and powerful foes they send you against.
And I don't mean that in a purely game mechanics term, as it stated and shown through story lines.
I guess another way to put it would be.
'You want to play a god/goddess on Earth? At least put in some effort and get level 50 first, before you expect us to bow to your wisdom and might.'
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
And what if I don't want my level 50's to be gods and goddessess huh?
Though if you're bringing up that level s related to power level, why I'd like to present exhibit A:
General Aarons
An old man with just a gun and his fists, yet a Security Level of the 40s (In the RWZ at least, which would be his most recent apperance).
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Then you shouldn't get them to level 50 in the first place, find a comfortable spot where in the game storyline they are still stopping street crime, rather than twisted mutant rocks and dimensional doubles.|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
And what if I don't want my level 50's to be gods and goddessess huh?
Though if you're bringing up that level s related to power level, why I'd like to present exhibit A: General Aarons An old man with just a gun and his fists, yet a Security Level of the 40s (In the RWZ at least, which would be his most recent apperance). |
And as for the general?
Manticores just a man with some trick arrows and a bow, yet he's level 53. the General in question could do all sorts of bad *** things we haven't seen, hell he could of single handedly held of an Arachnos assault on the Pentagon with just his fists and his gun.
Edit:
I think you might be assuming that I mean powerful in a purely physical sense. I don't, the character in question merely needs to be able to go up to that power level of encounter, whether they use physical strength, skill, intelligence or charisma or prep time to do it is up to the player to decide, but they are still a 'global' player IC at 50.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Run Serpent Drummers arc and get back to me on how powerful the General is, I'll wait.
And so, what you're telling me is, if I have a character I enjoy playing, yet isn't IC at the power level of a lvel 50, I should just stop playing the enjoyable character because thier powerlevel has to directly corralate to thier security level.
Wow, I'll make sure my former Hellion Demon MM never goes above level 15 then, I'd sure hate to have people make unrasonable assumptions on power level there.
But seriously CB, Correlation is not Causation! Just because many powerful heroes have a high security rating does not mean the rating is so high because they're so powerful!
Otherwise I need to go put on a pirate hat to stop global warming.
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Right.|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
Lets take my lvl 47 Crabspider for a moment and pit her against my lvl twenty-somthing Tank, now in an OOC fight or from a game mechnics point of view the Tank here has no hope. However from an IC perspective those super strength punches could potentially cripple the Crabspider for months if not worse.
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This is always a contentious issue, because here we have a Roleplay reality that is in direct contradiction with actual or game reality. Getting around such issues is always exceptionally easy if you can gain the assent/agreement of others to go with your alternate reality over the actual.
In an arena battle, you'd simply use the match settings to bring the levels of all involved to the level of the lowest. That gives level pegging for level, and makes the level difference the same non-issue in reality as in the roleplay scenario. We've done this often for some of the Militia training session PvP scenes.
However, roleplay beyond the game parameters always needs that agreement to accept a common reality that is not the actual reality. Turning around to any other player and saying "Actually, my level 20 tank is more powerful than your level 40 blaster because he has x power, and level is not a factor of roleplay" is godmodding.
The only non-godmod version is to discuss and agree with that other player, OOC, whether they are prepared to go along with your reality first.
CB mentioned this precise point way back, and I know from years of experience that he is not alone. Lots of players will say that your character is as tough as you make him, in game. After all, this isn't IRC chat roleplay, this is CoX, and the entire point is to mesh the two things together.
I've played this out both ways. Like I said, for the Militia we'd happily level-cap everyone to the lowest member of the group for IC PvP sessions in the arena. On the other hand, once that fairness was established, the winner of each match was the one who actually won, in the game session. No fudging.
It didn't necessarily mean that my Kinetic defender, White Vampyr, was more powerful than mighty Aurelian the fiery incarnate sun-god. It meant that on the day, my petite little lady was the more focused, evaded his far more powerful attacks, and perhaps he was even put off his best at the thought of fighting a woman. Plus, it was only sparring.
Spiderman has faced off Hulk. Batman has faced off Superman. Both cases, just like your Crab Spider, the loser had the far (by a million miles) more powerful punch. The loser could have literally smashed the winner to a pulp with a single hit.
But that's life sometimes. The best, stongest, etc doesn't always win. Every expert in the world would tell you that Betamax was a far better format technically than VHS ever was (plus was directly related to U-max which the TV programmers themselves filmed on). Most computer geeks will tell you quite happily that Linux is far far better than Windows in every practical way. Oh, and America lost its war in Vietnam.
I tend to think that a character should only be as powerful as you can show them to be in a mission situation. Characters like Dante's Dante Carver, or my own Powerstone are more powerful, but can't call on that power in the heat of a melee.
I tend towards the thought that having any character that can't actually perform in-game as they are supposed to be is a sure sign that they should be a forum and social RP only character until you can be bothered to level them and slot them. Levelling is not at all hard in this game, after all.
And if they are already levelled and still underperform to what you've claimed them to be, well, that's probaby a sign of one of those over-powered uber-characters. Personally, I really dislike those. It smacks of cheating and the worst sort of 'special snowflake-ness'. But then I have almost 30 years of RP gaming experience.
Mechanics usually exist in any game because without it that special snowflake thing turns to arguments and godmoding. No player has the right to say their character is more powerful than mine. That's godmodding my characters' power levels. However, if they can actually, through the game mechanics make that so, then great. We can both agree to that as fair by an entirely disinterested party - the game mechanics. We both have the same fair chance to be special.
Some will play things differently. That's cool too (as long as I don't have to settle their arguments). Play as you want to play.
Unlike several others in this thread, I'm never saying what people must or must not do with regard to their characters. I have however pointed out what canon says, but even there I don't say anyone can't break canon. I've just said don't force it on me, or forget that you'll need the consent of others you RP with in such cases. RP is about sharing reality, and that means you all have to have consensus on which reality you are sharing.
Just as a final example, consider this. If your level 20 tanker wants to pick on my level 50 fortunata, feel free. But I'd suggest you get consensus first on whether I'm willing to be malefactored down to about level 18 just so that you can feel more powerful. My character earned her levels, and they reflect additional experience that a level 20 character doesn't have. She's been back to fight beside Imperious, has beaten down pretty much every member of the 'Surviving Eight' and won, and even faced off Ghost Widow and got away with it. Who are you to say your character is more powerful than mine unless you beg and plead with me to agree to such a reality, or we use a fair system that we agree to decide it?
Its like Wolfram's question ages back. It doesn't have to be that your tanker is weaker than the crab spider. It may be that your Crab Spider is far tougher, luckier, and more experienced than the Tanker gave him credit for. Maybe the Crab Spider wins simply because the Tanker had massively underestimated him.
Since the PvP system, the devs have worked and reworked systems over and again so that all ATs are (roughly) equally powerful, but in different ways. That's a form of canon, but more importantly, it is basic good gamesmanship.
http://www.savecoh.com/
Only that 'Game reality' is taking Game mechanics as infallible and absolute law. Which I and others just simply don't buy.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Of course in an RP enviroment you'd talk it through with the other person! Sheesh, why do you think I used two of my own characters there! Because I happen to know both thier strengths and weaknessess and what I'd say for each one, it saved time to bring forth an example!
And to be frank I resent the implications you're making in my direction.
But of course PvP is perfectly balanced! And those of us with not much time can of course grind up levels on hard to level builds as well as get the millions of inf to slot them up, because why it's just as easy as you said it is.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Only that 'Game reality' is taking Game mechanics as infallible and absolute law. Which I and others just simply don't buy.
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I think (and this may come out far harsher than I intended) what Tech and Omy, both seem to have forgotten is that this is an RPG.
That is to say a Role Playing Game.
A game has rules and constraints, it sets the players boundaries to play within.
What Omy is essentially saying is his maxed out character in Fallout should be considered just the same as some one fresh from the vault. Or that his newly escaped from Prison character in Oblivion should be head of the mages guild, without having to do the quests, simply because he says so.
One of the constraints of this RPG is that as players increase in power/skill/intelligence/magic/whatever their security/threat level increases and thus they can go fight/commit the more dangerous situations.
To become slightly personal, Omy you have characters based on another RPG, Exhalted PnP right?
What you are doing is saying you want to be able to insert these characters into another game without doing any of the work to even get them to be of the equivalent powerlevel within that rule set.
You want to play an Exhalted level character despite your character sheet being that of a level 1 paladin in DnD, you are saying the dice should be stacked as if you were a level 30 with divine path feats.
It just doesn't fly, this isn't after all just a chat forum.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Wha? Not at all, I took inspiration in terms of concept for a single character (Boundless Skies) from Exalted, but that's only in terms of how her magic works, she's nothing like an Exalted character!
And no, you seem to be totally misunderstanding the point I'm trying to get across.
Just... sheesh CB you've RP'd with me, you know I'm not that bad D:
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
I think (and this may come out far harsher than I intended) what Tech and Omy, both seem to have forgotten is that this is an RPG.
That is to say a Role Playing Game. A game has rules and constraints, it sets the players boundaries to play within. What Omy is essentially saying is his maxed out character in Fallout should be considered just the same as some one fresh from the vault. Or that his newly escaped from Prison character in Oblivion should be head of the mages guild, without having to do the quests, simply because he says so. One of the constraints of this RPG is that as players increase in power/skill/intelligence/magic/whatever their security/threat level increases and thus they can go fight/commit the more dangerous situations. To become slightly personal, Omy you have characters based on another RPG, Exhalted PnP right? What you are doing is saying you want to be able to insert these characters into another game without doing any of the work to even get them to be of the equivalent powerlevel within that rule set. You want to play an Exhalted level character despite your character sheet being that of a level 1 paladin in DnD, you are saying the dice should be stacked as if you were a level 30 with divine path feats. It just doesn't fly, this isn't after all just a chat forum. |
As far as I've seen, Omy wants his level 50 character (or at least some of them) to NOT be treated like that. Like his fully levelled Fallout character to be treated like someone still wandering around Megaton, or an Oblivion character to have never left Imperial City, to use your own analogies.
Really, theres only so far you can push game mecahnics until they become boring, restrictive and, the most important one, not fun.
I'm not talking about level 1 characters having insane power, because that is just pure power-tripping and god-moding. But, to use my example, my currently level 26 Tanker is the same who was previously level 50. Due to game mechanics, I ended up re-rolling him. If your now saying that he has to be weaker than he was simply due to a re-roll, at least IC, then I shall simply laugh at that, and you know it.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Don't get me wrong, I plan to do something quite similar to explain Autumnfox's Judgement power (support fire from an off-screen gunship), which, IC, has even more limitations. I'm waiting to see how the power looks and works before I decide, though.
Orange portal opens, fire into it.
Blue portal opens....Ka-BOOM!
Or close enough
And yes, that's exactly what I've been using Warburg nukes for. T'be honest, I've only ever had a need to use them when I've been outside, thankfully. So I didn't actually have to drag out the portal-tech explanation (Or the trans-warp time portal one, either...)
It also explains why he uses it once in a blue moon. Those nine tonne shells cost a LOT, you realise?
Mind you, with all these increased-power capes running around, he may have to up his counter measures. To the level of, oh, I dunno...an orbital railcannon?
Round and round we go, where we'll stop, nobody knows...