I sort of use in-game PVE to judge my character.
In the form of how I handle AVs. Due to his magic and the Battle Mage armors Shade wears, he can stand up to just about any AV defensively, for a bit.
I say that he's either had luck or he is as powerful, if not stronger then: Chimera, Romulus Augustus, Hro'Dthoz, Requiem, Countess Crey. But its all hooplah because I haven't found good textfighting buds on Virtue ._.
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Originally Posted by ShadowWings
I sort of use in-game PVE to judge my character.
In the form of how I handle AVs. Due to his magic and the Battle Mage armors Shade wears, he can stand up to just about any AV defensively, for a bit. I say that he's either had luck or he is as powerful, if not stronger then: Chimera, Romulus Augustus, Hro'Dthoz, Requiem, Countess Crey. But its all hooplah because I haven't found good textfighting buds on Virtue ._. |
You see I'd disagree, unless you can solo these at full powered AV mode, then I wouldn't say you have any real call having your character be more powerful than them in game.
They are supposed to be more powerful than our characters, and thus our characters need to team up to take them on.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
You see I'd disagree, unless you can solo these at full powered AV mode, then I wouldn't say you have any real call having your character be more powerful than them in game.
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Firstly i dont think any toon should be more powerful than the most powerful game content, when you play LotRO you dont make a "more powerful than the Dark Lord" character.
the game does create a problem for most AT/ power set pairings as they cannot be built to kill AV's ..which means all uberpowered heroes have to be a small range of builds, thius it becomes a pure game mechanic.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Firstly i dont think any toon should be more powerful than the most powerful game content, when you play LotRO you dont make a "more powerful than the Dark Lord" character.
the game does create a problem for most AT/ power set pairings as they cannot be built to kill AV's ..which means all uberpowered heroes have to be a small range of builds, thius it becomes a pure game mechanic. |
Which makes sense given the game canon.
Yes your Illusion/Rad controller isn't stronger or tougher than an AV, but with the right plan and a bit of luck you can take them down by wearing them down as they fight your illusions.
But for others? Well no, no you aren't stronger than Statesman, or Tougher than him, because mechanics wise, you never will be without a team to back you up.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
For the Alpha slot, it is fairly easy to explain away the boost for natural human characters. Mastering your specific martial art, learning better strikes or just simply taking a level in badass and doing some training from hell for the Martial Artists.
Gun users it is even easier, stuff like whacking on a scope, adding a quick reload mechanism, adding a new kind of grip or stock.
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Yet. | But for others? Well no, no you aren't stronger than Statesman, or Tougher than him, because mechanics wise, you never will be without a team to back you up. |
Yeah we aren't going to get to the uber level we are in the first Incarnate unlock mission but I get the feeling that you could, on some level, end up being a match for the current crop of Archvillains/Heroes.
A large global buff, a high damage AoE, a stacking debuff (if the Interface slot is the same as it was during the leak), summonable pets (if the Lore slot is the same as it was during the leak) and that was just the first four slots, lord knows what the remaning 6 will be like but at the end of it I, personally, reckon that a fully Omega level Incarnate Tanker could probably atleast match say Statesman or Lord Recluse.
However it probably won't be until this time next year that we see even the remotest hint of the Omega slot.
Heck during the anniversery event Amy was stood in the middle and tanked 5 GM class Devouring Earth monsters all at once...and didn't get hit once she is one tough cookie on her lonesome and the Incarnate abilities will simply be making her more damaging (since I want to move her towards baseline scrapper (without criticals) damage level).
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Good answer. |
Originally Posted by Ammon
For me, Billy would be making direct efforts to contact and use the power of this greater entity, turning himself Incarnate. Jimmy would be getting it bestowed upon him without his knowledge. A double-edged gift from a god-like entity that he may not even notice or recognize as anything beyond his own training.
I think this setles comfortably into the mechanics without breaking anything for anyone. I don't even need Jimmy's player to agree with me, because it can all be without his knowing. |
It's an interesting alternate way of looking at the question in general; if character A loses to character B in a fight, it might imply that B is more powerful than everyone thought, not that A is less so.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
"When it reaches a sufficient level, there is next to no difference between technology and magic."
Horribly paraphrased quote aside, who's to say that Incarnates can't be technology related? If Alpha can up against the likes of Statesman or Recluse and walk away standing, then surely the technolgy he used is on par or superior to that of an Incarnate? What, then, is the difference? If any? |
So no, there's no reason an Incarnate can't be fully based on technology. However, from my point of view, there's a sizeable gulf between "sufficiently advanced technology" and "whacking a scope" on something.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
People (in general, sweeping statement) still seem to think that 'Incarnate' is like the misconception about Epic ATs somehow being 'Better' ATs. Incarnate classified Heroes and Villains may well be actual Incarnates, OR they may simply have the means to equal or best Incarnates, putting them on the same level.
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Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
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That's the thing though...one of the Incarnate Alpha slot powers boosts accuracy, if you are determined to keep that natural human who uses guns involved in atleast the Alpha slot Incarnate the bonus can easily be explained away as the addition of a scope on a non-scoped gun or you tweaked the iron sights you only just noticed were slightly off, improving the rifiling on the barrel or a couple of other things. |
Originally Posted by Wolfram
So no, there's no reason an Incarnate can't be fully based on technology. However, from my point of view, there's a sizeable gulf between "sufficiently advanced technology" and "whacking a scope" on something.
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It's...at most...a 45% accuracy increase and more likely 30%ish if you already have Accuracy slotted AND you have the Very Rare version.
More damage could just mean that you are now using better, more powerful, rounds in your gun or you've added a Diamond/Impervium edge to your sword.
Just because the Incarnate slot screams 'Magical god power' doesn't mean it HAS to be taken as that. Heck so far the only leaked Judgement power is a freaking orbital killsat! Which just about any natural human could put a laser designator and uplink on their custom gun to guide in, that's no more of a stretch than a gun which fires regular bullets, shotgun slug, shotgun cartridge, Dragon's Breath shotgun flamethrower rounds, high powered Sniper rifle bullets and grenades all from the same gun.
They would still be natural but they've got their own personal Ion Cannon with which to smite their foes, how did they get the codes and permission to use such a thing...well who the heck knows, that is up to the person to decide.
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Myeah, maybe so. I just don't see it as an 'Instant Win' button. There are still multiple ways a non-Incarnate could very feasibly kick an Incarnates shiny butt...my brain, however, seems incapable of making any of them make sense when I type them. Bleh.
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Originally Posted by Wolfram
This I'm not so sure about. Everything we know (ok, everything I know :P) tells us that Incarnates are a step above everyone else, as much IC and OOC. A non-Incarnate character equalling or bettering Incarnates... I'm not going to say it's impossible, but we're talking an extreme level of power. At that point, I'd be inclined to go with Ammon and say the character has become Incarnate unwittingly.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Unwittingly having used a material to make the scope that is in some manner connected to the Well, or is a shard, etc.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
That's the thing though...one of the Incarnate Alpha slot powers boosts accuracy, if you are determined to keep that natural human who uses guns involved in atleast the Alpha slot Incarnate the bonus can easily be explained away as the addition of a scope on a non-scoped gun or you tweaked the iron sights you only just noticed were slightly off, improving the rifiling on the barrel or a couple of other things.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
More damage could just mean that you are now using better, more powerful, rounds in your gun or you've added a Diamond/Impervium edge to your sword.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Just because the Incarnate slot screams 'Magical god power' doesn't mean it HAS to be taken as that.
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But then again, God simply is, therefore God is a Natural Origin - what he is is entirely Natural for God to be.We do know, in Cannon, that certain greater beings exist. Greater than Statesman and Recluse. Hequat. Ermeeth. Lughbu. These were always written in cannon as god-like spirits. Able to create races of people, and to crush continents if that is what Atlantis was, (and at least very large Islands if not).
Rularu is also certainly indicated to be stronger than Recluse or Statesman, and somewhat godlike. His followers don't use magic. Instead we see natural powers (presuming the powesrs of the giant floating eyes to be natural to giant floating eyes, of course). Psionics, and extreme natural forms. Mutants maybe, or perhaps Rularu is actually a science type, having mutated his races to serve through applied science.
Anyone seeing the Well as magical may need to realise that that is possibly their own inner bias and misconception. The Well itself might be any origin, or none, or all.
http://www.savecoh.com/
I just dislike it being assumed that anything to do with Incarnates HAS to come from the Well or 'some other' source of whateverthehelltheyputinthisstuff.
I know exactly what Alphas Judgement power actually is going to be, for example;
Reason
A couple of thousand tonnes of railcannon based dee-vine technological intervention. It has nothing to do with quasi-mystical vague explanations and possible sentient water features.
It's an orbital railcannon. It flings nine tonne shells of high calibre Doom at a target, and makes it explode. End of.
Will have to wait to see what the other slots do, but I'll bet I can make decent arguements for all of them, too.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, let's see...
Every single argument, on both sides of the divide, can be boiled down to one simple (hah!) factor:
Cause and Effect.
As Roleplayers, we constantly strive for individuality in our toons, and we effectively demand the right to define our own "Cause". The "Effect" is best written as "whatever the game mechanics say happens".
This happens with Origins, which are sufficiently broad that we can usually fudge one of the five "Causes" into the "Effect" of our powers.
The discussion here is essentially "do all characters that take advantage of the Incarnate System have to be empowered by The Well in character?"
The answer to that question, in the interests of the freedom of expression that RPers strive for, has to be a resounding "NO".
I might choose to define my character's (Alpha-slot) Accuracy boost as better aiming, homing spells, faster mutated reactions, whatever I feel like. It does not mean that I am accepting a link to The Well has occured for my character.
Alternatively, a character may quite happily say that they are empowered by The Well, and not have any Incarnate Boosts slotted, in which case that link is doing precisely nothing for that character, IC or OOC, but no one can argue that they're not on the Incarnate path.
The means by which an individual character is (or is not) empowered by The Well is very much up to the individual player. The only thing that I think is required is that every player accepts what the Lore regarding Incarnates now says. This does not mean that every character must believe it, of course, but players need to agree that if someone says "I am an Incarnate", then that someone is receiving some form of empowerment from an as-yet poorly defined intelligence known as The Well of the Furies.
It becomes important as we move forward and characters who have unlocked Incarnatedom become more and more powerful - the levels of power that Incarnates are able to achieve are supposed to exceed those that any non-Incarnate is capable of, in the Paragon Universe. So someone with a toon who has Omega Incarnate powers slotted up to the gills will either have an incredibly good explanation for their utterly non-Incarnate character (and I have to admit, it would have to be a doozy, OOC), or they will admit to being an Incarnate, or they will be an incarnate but the character might not know it.
I am a great believer in allowing people to define their own "Cause", as long as it is plausible in the wider context of the game world, to satisfy the "Effect" they are able to achieve. In all honesty, I think the most broadly acceptable and applicable explanation is that anyone who has unlocked and slotted Incarnate powers is an Incarnate (the game lore says that those powers are not accessible without being one). They may have been manipulated without their knowledge by The Well, they may have stumbled upon some Incarnate-granting device, spell, technique, whatever. But that doesn't mean I think this should be forced on people.
The important thing, to me, is what the individual character believes. If Joe Public S-Hero (L50 Tanker slotted with a Cardiac Alpha boost) thinks he's just extraordinarily fit, who can argue with him? Just because the game rules say that he cannot possibly be that fit unless he is an Incarnate, that does not mean that he understands/accepts/knows this.
To avoid the argument "You're an incarnate", "No, I'm not" that will inevitably crop up, a consensus decision needs to be achieved. Trying not to turn this into an EU issue, but I have the following proposal for the Unionverse at large:
Incarnatedom is undetectable IC.
If that is acceptable (and I think it's quite reasonable), then it falls down to the RP that occurs to find out if a given character "is" an incarnate. This allows the player to make their own decision as to whether their character's power level is actually linked to The Well or not, and whether their character is aware of such a link if it exists.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Aye that's the thing, I'm saying both sides can be used, unlike Ammon who wants (or is atleast suggesting) that everything be connected to the well whether someone likes it or not (seriously, it would just be an over the counter pistol/rifle scope, didn't make it yourself, just a standard 'the only schmuck that could miss with this thing is the doofus who could afford the pricetag' scope).
I'm agree with Shadowe, unless someone outright states 'I am on the path of Incarnatedom' nobody is going to know.
Now the explanations for keeping a natural human with added equipment are probably going to get harder and harder as the Incarnate system progresses at some point it may be a case of a natural human using advanced technology...though to be fair that doesn't change the origin, you are still just someone who is well trained but you also have access to a military killsat.
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I would have hoped that was a given, the same way you shouldn't be able to tell what powers someons character has until you see them or they are explained, security level, name, all that kinda thing. In fact, I'd quickly get very irate if people started delving into OOC descriptions to suddenly judge, say, Alpha as an Incarnate.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
To avoid the argument "You're an incarnate", "No, I'm not" that will inevitably crop up, a consensus decision needs to be achieved. Trying not to turn this into an EU issue, but I have the following proposal for the Unionverse at large:
Incarnatedom is undetectable IC. If that is acceptable (and I think it's quite reasonable), then it falls down to the RP that occurs to find out if a given character "is" an incarnate. This allows the player to make their own decision as to whether their character's power level is actually linked to The Well or not, and whether their character is aware of such a link if it exists. |
Alpha can never, nor will ever be an Incarnate, by dint of being what he is. Magic doesn't work with him, and he doesn't believe in trusting in it anyway.
What he does believe in is overwhelming technological superiority, which he also has the intellect and means of engineering. So he will.
That still doesn't make him Incarnate. End of.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This. No matter what other people say, unless you're paying other people's subs, you get zero say in how they want to interpret Incarnates on their characters.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
That still doesn't make him Incarnate. End of.
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As long as people don't use the canon and then completely break what the devs have given us, I don't care HOW people do it. Just as long as everyone's having fun. Well, except people who don't like that. They can go boil their heads.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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While I fully agree with everything else you're saying here, this is the one part that niggles me and that I'm trying to object to here.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
The important thing, to me, is what the individual character believes. If Joe Public S-Hero (L50 Tanker slotted with a Cardiac Alpha boost) thinks he's just extraordinarily fit, who can argue with him? Just because the game rules say that he cannot possibly be that fit unless he is an Incarnate, that does not mean that he understands/accepts/knows this.
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Now lets assume I get a character to unlock said Alpha slot (Very unlikly given my play style), what if I don't want said character to be anything like an Incarnate? And whenver I RP with said character they're within teh powerlevel they've always been defined as being and as such are not incarnate level powerful? Do I OOC have to accept that "No wait actually because I went and OOC did this, and never refer to being like that IC I still have to accept that like it or not that my character is an Incarnate?"
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The short answer is no.|
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
While I fully agree with everything else you're saying here, this is the one part that niggles me and that I'm trying to object to here.
Now lets assume I get a character to unlock said Alpha slot (Very unlikly given my play style), what if I don't want said character to be anything like an Incarnate? And whenver I RP with said character they're within teh powerlevel they've always been defined as being and as such are not incarnate level powerful? Do I OOC have to accept that "No wait actually because I went and OOC did this, and never refer to being like that IC I still have to accept that like it or not that my character is an Incarnate?" |
The long answer is 'Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo'
It's your character. So long as it sticks within common RP rules, everyone else can go boil themselves, unless they want to pay your subs.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Dude, your characters are whatever YOU want them to be. Do the Incarnate arcs, or not. Use them ICly, or not. It's all good as long as you're having fun.
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Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
While I fully agree with everything else you're saying here, this is the one part that niggles me and that I'm trying to object to here.
Now lets assume I get a character to unlock said Alpha slot (Very unlikly given my play style), what if I don't want said character to be anything like an Incarnate? And whenver I RP with said character they're within teh powerlevel they've always been defined as being and as such are not incarnate level powerful? Do I OOC have to accept that "No wait actually because I went and OOC did this, and never refer to being like that IC I still have to accept that like it or not that my character is an Incarnate?" |
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
See, that's the point I was trying to get across since I first said somthing in this thread!
It's just talk came up like they had to be Incarantes regardless of what I wanted, and that didn't make me feel all the best about that whole issue 
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They don't, mate. Just ignore anyone telling you they have to be; they're not worth listening to. Only you get to decide how it works for your chars.
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Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
See, that's the point I was trying to get across since I first said somthing in this thread!
It's just talk came up like they had to be Incarantes regardless of what I wanted, and that didn't make me feel all the best about that whole issue |
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Of course, you could just create your own universe with your own rules then canon-immigrant over some characters and ensure you faithfully follow the parts of the CoH canon that you can, and have explanations for those you can't...
>.> <.< ... >.>
Which gives me a small idea as to where this can all go for Forseverse's application of 'Incarnate' powers.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
----
Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
I tried to be clear about this, but I'm really not trying to tell anyone what they can do with their character. I'll try and be more clear about the points I'm trying to make.
Simply put, to me, in-game "power" is a purely OOC effect. It's nice when things coalign and you can have convincing PvP fights IC, but it's not incumbent on any player to back up their claims, either way. Similarly, I agree with Shadowe that game mechanics are invisible IC. This leads into the same point: do whatever you like, it's your character. Just as the game treats Zajin as an Arachnos Fortunata even though Arachnos doesn't know it exists, and just like Autumnfox's Judgement power will likely represent fire support from an off-screen gunship.
So if you want incarnate power in-game but not OOC, you don't even need to explain where it's coming from. Say you're upgrading your gear, or improving your training... or don't. In-game power is an OOC effect. But if you accept this, you can't expect people to back up their claims of IC power with in-game performance. In my above example, there is nothing Billy can do to become more powerful in-game that Jimmy can't also do.
That said, I have two further thoughts on this.
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Whatever happened to "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"? Anything magic can do, technology can do, and vice versa.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Alpha can never, nor will ever be an Incarnate, by dint of being what he is. Magic doesn't work with him, and he doesn't believe in trusting in it anyway.
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"Incarnate" does not mean "magic". It doesn't replace your current origin, it augments it. An Incarnate Magic character gets more out of his/her magic; an Incarnate Mutation character gets more out of his/her mutation; an Incarnate Technology character gets more out of his/her technology. Nobody is compelled to use the word "incarnate", but don't feel you have to reject being incarnate IC just because of your origin.
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Originally Posted by Shadowe
It becomes important as we move forward and characters who have unlocked Incarnatedom become more and more powerful - the levels of power that Incarnates are able to achieve are supposed to exceed those that any non-Incarnate is capable of, in the Paragon Universe. So someone with a toon who has Omega Incarnate powers slotted up to the gills will either have an incredibly good explanation for their utterly non-Incarnate character (and I have to admit, it would have to be a doozy, OOC), or they will admit to being an Incarnate, or they will be an incarnate but the character might not know it.
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Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
The problem seems to be that rather than Incarnate meaning that they're an Avatar of a Greek god (Or possibly any god, hence the name Incarnate) it now means .... something fairly poorly defined and from the sounds of it it's going to stay deliberately vague.
So feel free to call Fans an incarnate IC when she gets her Alpha slot, but since there's no real coherent definition to what an Incarnate IS anymore you're not really doing much more than pointing out she's pretty powerful. Which she'll attest too already!
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I already quoted it, thats what |
Originally Posted by Wolfram
Whatever happened to "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"? Anything magic can do, technology can do, and vice versa. "Incarnate" does not mean "magic". It doesn't replace your current origin, it augments it. An Incarnate Magic character gets more out of his/her magic; an Incarnate Mutation character gets more out of his/her mutation; an Incarnate Technology character gets more out of his/her technology. Nobody is compelled to use the word "incarnate", but don't feel you have to reject being incarnate IC just because of your origin. |
And I haven't had a chance to test the new Introduction arc (**** you EU test server and your broken transfer system!
) so I don't know. I still feel uncomfortable with osme quasi-mythic entity saying 'Yeah, I gave you more uber powers, lulz' It feels like game railroading. I may very well be wrong. And no, I dont want spoilers, thank you. I'll just play the damn arc when it goes live.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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My current main toon will just get upgraded armor and weapons. *shrug*
Goodbye. Not to the game, but the players. Goodbye. Everyone, remember to have fun. That's all I can say.
The game plays fast and loose with these kind of rules and the existence of sidekicking kind of destroys any pretence of realism in this respect. If I wanted to, I could sidekick a level 1 character to my level 50 and go take down a GM. The sidekick would still get the badge merely because they were sidekicked to me, regardless of whether they could even hit them or not IC. This is one of the reasons I dont like to focus on game mechanics too much.
As for RP characters as weaker, one of my 50s is a young lady with a powerful voice. And although shes carved holes in Rikti ships and shattered landscapes with it, in all other respects, she remains a normal human. If she was involved in an RP fight where some martial artist punched her in the throat, she would be almost powerless and easily subdued. So although I dont have to RP her as weaker as per your example, I can still be aware of her capabilities and RP accordingly.
And finally, as has been said both in this thread and in game, the Incarnate path is just one route to power. The Well contains the essence of human potential of all kinds so although Billy may have encountered the Well IC, I dont see why his friend could have unknowingly embraced its power through sheer willpower and focus. Just my two pennyworth.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk