Re: Sister Psyche and Manticore
By
Amerikatt,
Posted on: 2010-11-18 08:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Introduction of souls = fail. You might as well say a god told you or you divined it from pig entrails.
*wipes hands*
And I'm out.
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Because, it's my duty as a scientist to try.
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Originally Posted by Shadow State
Honestly, I don't know why you guys bother, it's not like you're going to convince her of anything.
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Well that's just silly.|
Originally Posted by RadDidIt
Because, it's my duty as a scientist to try.
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Scientist's keep saying one thing, then discovering they were wrong.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I remember when I was grappling with all this stuff. Not to sound like "oh, that was just a phase." These are important things to ask oneself about. Not sure if arguing on the Internet will accomplish as much, though I never tried. I didn't necessarily come to any conclusions anyway. I got burned out somewhere halfway through Being and Nothingness (I'm talking about the book by Jean-Paul Sartre, not the Concealment power pool).|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A machine doesn't have a soul - we do.
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Something funny. I wouldn't let machines find dates for me (as many do nowadays) because I want there to be some magic in things like that. And yet, I don't believe in magic. That's humans for ya. And whatever constitutes a human soul, I recognize that my belief in one has precedents. People have believed all sorts of "certainties" which placed us front and center in the universe, only to be informed by meddling science and technology origin contacts that the universe likely HAS no center, and if it does we're certainly off to one side. Our minds, "sufficiently advanced", seem labyrinthine, unsolvable, magical. This is (paradoxically) why I suspect sentient artificial intelligence may be possible some day. It will be those meddling science and technology origin contacts. Our arrogance--er, I mean majesty--is always undone by those fools!
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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Prove a soul exists.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A machine doesn't have a soul - we do.
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Yeah, it's probably best if I sit this argument out, right?
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
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And if they didn't try, they never would.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well that's just silly.
Scientist's keep saying one thing, then discovering they were wrong. |
Funny how that works.
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If the soul is not 'knowable', how do you know it exists?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Emotions are something deeper than just stimulation - they're part of our consciousness, which makes us who we are.
Our life spirit isn't - our souls are something deeper. |
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That's wrong. Emotions can be manipulated, and to some degree created, by chemical means. That's how drugs work. (both recreational and medecinal)
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not really, no - flight is a simple physical thing - it can be defined by physics, and is based on solid principles that can be broken down and studied, and then created and recreated.
Emotions are the opposite - they can't be defined or rationalized or broken down to be studied, or be created or recreated. If someone wanted to know how flight works, they could read about it and understand it - but something like love can't be defined or understood - it can't be made to happen and it can't be made to stop, and it can't be copied - it's just something that's inside all of us, and it's one of the things that makes us human - and it's something that a computer can never feel. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Prove to me that humans can do anything other than respond toa pre-selected set of responses.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Feel free to show me a robot that can do anything other than respond from a pre-selected set of responses
Machines can never have an imagination - they're too limited - the best they can ever do is respond to things based on the stuff we've programmed into them - they can never have emotions. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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This discussion is the proof - among many other things |
Originally Posted by Scythus
Prove a soul exists.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, as our imaginations are unlimited, it's kinda hard for me to list something that's infinite - so it'd probably be better for you to list the pre-selected responses you think we have |
Originally Posted by Arilou
Prove to me that humans can do anything other than respond toa pre-selected set of responses.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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But they're only shallow responses, not the genuine deep emotions that we get in our normal lives.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
That's wrong. Emotions can be manipulated, and to some degree created, by chemical means. That's how drugs work. (both recreational and medecinal)
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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*sigh*|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But they're only shallow responses, not the genuine deep emotions that we get in our normal lives.
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You would be the expert on shallow responses.
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No it isn't. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
This discussion is the proof - among many other things
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Your selection of responses and train of thought is just offensive, and I'd like to mention that no ammount of smileys will make it ok.
All your talk of emotion, have you ever considered those that are incapable of expressing or feeling emotion the same way you are? Do you believe that people with emotional and behavioral disorders, or cognitive disabilities are less human? Do you have a similar ability to discout their existance because they function differently? How about harming them, do you get to harm people with lesser to no emotional function, in the same way you believe is acceptable to act toward technologically Created intelligence? Oh, and could you please share your depth of awareness and knowledge in the field of computer programming, psychology, and biology that give you the ability to completely discount the future possibility to program emotion, intelligence, or both.
By the way to address your ignorance; as you seem to have forgotten high school biology, DNA is the outline that guides how we function. DNA stores information, and passes that information to cells. Cells are the fundimental building blocks of living orginisms.
I would like to point out that I am an incredibly religous person. One thing I despise, however, is the use of religion to prevent intellectual growth, spew hate, or replace personal responsibility. Read Richard Dawkins. He may not agree with religious opinion, but that makes him no less brilliant in his field. Questions must be asked, ideas must be challenged, and nothing must be kept so sacred as to be beyond intellectual curiosity. To do so is waste the gift of thought we have been given.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
With her limited range of responses at most times I'm willing to believe GG might actually be a chat bot.
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I thought the whole marriage thing wasn't about in-game stuff or did I totally not read anything about that correctly? like they just wrote it in game to fit with what they did in real life sort of thingy? I mean not of having an in-game explanation would be weird but it would be very close to bottom of story problems for me.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
Personally, I always saw Manticore, Back Alley Brawler, and Ms. Liberty as the poster children for Vigilante (before we actually had it). Sure, Posi, States, Psyche and Synapse are as foursquare heroic as you can get (pretty much), but Manticore is not. And considering Manticore is practically our version of Batman, anyone wanna say HE'S not a hero?
Dark, yes. Grim, yes. Blood on his hands, gallons. Hero? Absolutely. And yes, Psyche knows. One of the most powerful psychics on the planet. And she loves him (God only knows why, the two always struck me as oil and water), so she accepts it. Maybe she fell back on that fallacy of "I can change him". (This is of course just MY opinion - and it helps that in COH, I run in an SG where the group as a whole walks just shy of the line of Vigilante.) Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
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No, we don't. "Souls" are just a cushy lie we tell ourselves to distract our brains from the the very clear and very real notion that one day, we'll die, and it's all over. We like to think that our "souls" will go off to a better place, but they won't. We cease to exist, and that frightens people.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A machine doesn't have a soul - we do.
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Humans are nothing more than very complex machines made out of meat. Both history and medicine have demonstrated that emotions, love, dreams and personality can be controlled by purely physical means. If it makes people feel better about themselves by believing they are somehow more "special" than that pile of rocks over there, then I'm not about to stop them, but don't try to dismiss other people's ideas just because you need to believe that humans aren't precisely as soulless as a computer.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, as our imaginations are unlimited, it's kinda hard for me to list something that's infinite - so it'd probably be better for you to list the pre-selected responses you think we have
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Romantic ideas like souls, imagination, love, good and evil and all of that are perfectly fine for fictional stories. Prudent, in fact, as they make for some very engaging themes. But they cannot and should not be applied to the real world because the real world doesn't work that way.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No, this does not constitute proof of the existence of the soul.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
This discussion is the proof - among many other things
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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No, that's not actually true. Medicated states of mind may be limited in duration, but they're not any less genuine while they last. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But they're only shallow responses, not the genuine deep emotions that we get in our normal lives.
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Medical disorders can and do affect our emotions (as do the medication designed to alleviate said disorders)
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| Well, as our imaginations are unlimited, it's kinda hard for me to list something that's infinite - so it'd probably be better for you to list the pre-selected responses you think we have |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Then feel free to list all of them then |
Originally Posted by Arilou
Human responses are not infinite.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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When I say souls, I'm not talking about religion.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No, we don't. "Souls" are just a cushy lie we tell ourselves to distract our brains from the the very clear and very real notion that one day, we'll die, and it's all over. We like to think that our "souls" will go off to a better place, but they won't. We cease to exist, and that frightens people.
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| Humans are nothing more than very complex machines made out of meat. Both history and medicine have demonstrated that emotions, love, dreams and personality can be controlled by purely physical means. |
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| If it makes people feel better about themselves by believing they are somehow more "special" than that pile of rocks over there, then I'm not about to stop them, but don't try to dismiss other people's ideas just because you need to believe that humans aren't precisely as soulless as a computer. |
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| Our imaginations are not unlimited. |
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| Romantic ideas like souls, imagination, love, good and evil and all of that are perfectly fine for fictional stories. Prudent, in fact, as they make for some very engaging themes. But they cannot and should not be applied to the real world because the real world doesn't work that way. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I don't think the forums rules let us discuss the players of other MMOs.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
All your talk of emotion, have you ever considered those that are incapable of expressing or feeling emotion the same way you are? Do you believe that people with emotional and behavioral disorders, or cognitive disabilities are less human? Do you have a similar ability to discout their existance because they function differently? How about harming them, do you get to harm people with lesser to no emotional function, in the same way you believe is acceptable to act toward technologically Created intelligence?
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| DNA is the outline that guides how we function. DNA stores information, and passes that information to cells. Cells are the fundimental building blocks of living orginisms. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Honestly, I don't know why you guys bother, it's not like you're going to convince her of anything.