WW's reasoning for no weather. Disagree!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-17 18:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
You are absolutely correct, the game needs weather. As this game matures, it's time to add those little elements that make the game world seem more real. How about an expansion called "Getting Real" that is primarily about making the game world more immersive?
Right now we're protecting a city of automatons, as if the entire normal population was wiped out and we can't face it, so we put automatons in their places and carry on. But protecting robots with poor AI just doesn't get the adrenaline flowing.
So let's have:
- Weather effects of all sorts, hopefully some of them, like snow, happening uniformly across the zones. Rain can certainly happen more locally, but when it's cold, it's cold throughout the city. I'm not averse to a hurricane season.
- NPCs doing more varied tasks. Right now we see "normals" driving around, walking around, running in fear, and being harassed in various ways. (In fairness, there are some construction crews at work in a few zones.) It's time for NPCs to enter and leave office buildings, march in picket lines, hold parades, stand around in cafes and drink coffee, and the harassed NPCs could run up to nearby heroes and ask them for help instead of tremble passively until a hero gets involved. And much more: taking in garbage cans, kids at play, workmen in the sewers, all manner of stuff.
- More functional locations, like bars, theaters, restaurants, night clubs, that we could hang out in if we wanted, just to keep in touch with normalcy. We could overhear what the NPCs really think about capes. If the rikti invade, what would the NPCs in the restaurant do or say? How would the NPCs react if a hero entered the restaurant in costume?
- A secret identity system that would hide our superhero identities. Such a big element of the comics that it's amazing that it's missing from CoH. I wouldn't mind my characters having an apartment to go back to at the end of the crimefighting day, that I could log out in; SG bases aren't the same thing.
Lots of us like to explore, so that's gameplay too; finding new locations in the city we can interact with and new NPC dialogue and behavior are all quite interesting to some of us.
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The first Winter Event featured all the smaller water surfaces freezing over. I don't know why that was never used again, because it was tremendous fun. Many times bunches of us would just get into these long trains and put the person ahead of us on "Follow" and the person in the lead would skate around. Long enough train of followers and it got pretty funny.
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I was just going to ask about having snow in paragon city for christmas this year and to expand that to eventually adding a true weather system. Why don't we have it already? There are older games than Cox that have an amazing weather system.
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Haha, I really wish they'd do that again.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
The first Winter Event featured all the smaller water surfaces freezing over. I don't know why that was never used again, because it was tremendous fun. Many times bunches of us would just get into these long trains and put the person ahead of us on "Follow" and the person in the lead would skate around. Long enough train of followers and it got pretty funny.
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And that training sounds like a lot of silly fun.
I tried doing the same thing with a group of us on the ski slopes...
It didn't work out so well, due to the speeds and such.
However, I bet it works fine in that situation.
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But can you imagine how ineffably COOL it would be to have all that stuff? Look at all the wasted development time on places such as Warburg where no one ever goes. Simply by shifting all the Dev time used on that PvP nonsense -- which by the game's very nature is impossible to balance and no fun to play outside of extremely restricted builds and methods -- we could've had all those neat things. |
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Ok, will start here.
1) WEATHER ISN'T A SIMPLE ADDITION- or more accurately, doing weather well isn't a simple addition. People generally think of it as atmospheric effects... but atmospheric effects by themselves make for a very lame experience. Does the sidewalk shine "wet" with the rain? Does snow accumulate? Do NPC's REACT to the weather by wearing things differently or saying different things? When you envision a weather state (let's use winter)-- to get a realistic weather effect for winter in new England, you'd have to consider... - Atmospheric snow - wind (does it affect flyers? can the engine support it?) - snow accumulation on the ground (essentially means different models and textures for the zones - trees- not just snow in the trees, but the removal of leaves in the winter. Some of our tree models are pretty spartan if they were bare. Yes, speedtree supports season states now. Speedtree licenses also vary in license costs. - NPC Dialogues, triggered by weather - NPC Behaviors/animations triggered by weather (winter activities) - NPC appearances (bundled up, no shortsleeve shirts) Do all that, and you're likely increasing the effort that's needed to build any one zone by 25% for each weather / season state you want to support (it's often more cost-effective to just make a single "cold zone" and another "hot zone" etc, instead of making every zone have every weather effect) Rain sounds simpler, but giving surfaces a "wet" look like EQ2 did was a massive engine undertaking. It still doesn't address NPC behavior patterns, appearances, etc. It still doesn't get us water flowing down the street gutters or splashing out of the storm sewers. It doesn't give trees a weighed-down wet look. |
Maybe it would've caused trouble with low-end systems, but the Devs have proven themselves equal to tricky technical tasks like UltraMode and power customization. I have faith in their abilities to figure out a way around the worst aspects of adding weather.
War Witch may not like weather because there's no "gameplay value" -- whatever that means -- but fun is fun, and "fun" is more than reason enough to add something to a game. I don't know how many hours I've spent simply doing things like sliding on ice, whether it be during the Winter Event or in Frostfire's lair. Sometimes silly things are fun to do. Remember when all the ponds froze over during the first Winter Lord attack? Man, those were some good times.
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You know that square water reservoir in Steel Canyon, just down from the Magic store and up from the University? Can't you just see people zipping along there? What a hoot.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Haha, I really wish they'd do that again.
And that training sounds like a lot of silly fun. I tried doing the same thing with a group of us on the ski slopes... It didn't work out so well, due to the speeds and such. However, I bet it works fine in that situation. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I'd rather the day/night cycle wasnt so damn short. And was, y'know, synched across the city or something?
That's a real pain...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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I find her attitude refreshing and vote NO to it unless there is a COMPELLING reason.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, folks. Here's the actual quote:
"Ive never been a huge fan of weather for the sake of weather and Ive said not on my watch in the past, but if there is a compelling gameplay reason to do it, not just because its cool, Id reconsider. So far, no ones come up with one, but Im open to ideas." Note that this is a far cry from "solid no." As with all things, we'll look at the priorities of the project at hand and introduce new tricks when they make sense. Cheers. |
Gameplay aspects that are random or scheduled are horrible ideas, so it would only work if it was some kind of event.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
(QR) I can't help but wonder about increased system requirements. That's pretty important in my opinion the you run the risk of losing players due to rising system requirements. Given normal life, nevermind the economy, not everyone will have the money to "omg get a real computer," you know? Plus lets not forget that laptops (which are outselling desktops, right?) generally have stinky GPUs.
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My "fantasy-concept MMO" that I'd joked about developing was a kind of "hard fantasy" low-magic world that was more 'world' than your typical mmo. Some of it worked like a sim-- hunting food for your village let the village population grow, resources helped it develop a better trade base, etc... it would have demand change over very visibly-changing seasons (each season a month long) and different critters active in the day, night, and dusk/dawn cycles. It'd have weather that mattered much as we're talking here, with buffs and debuffs and techniques to mitigate their effects and spawns that vary by weather and time of day (for example, its best to attack from the east around sunrise, as the sun at your back will make aiming at you difficult for the defenders).|
Originally Posted by Ironik
But can you imagine how ineffably COOL it would be to have all that stuff? Look at all the wasted development time on places such as Warburg where no one ever goes. Simply by shifting all the Dev time used on that PvP nonsense -- which by the game's very nature is impossible to balance and no fun to play outside of extremely restricted builds and methods -- we could've had all those neat things.
Maybe it would've caused trouble with low-end systems, but the Devs have proven themselves equal to tricky technical tasks like UltraMode and power customization. I have faith in their abilities to figure out a way around the worst aspects of adding weather. War Witch may not like weather because there's no "gameplay value" -- whatever that means -- but fun is fun, and "fun" is more than reason enough to add something to a game. I don't know how many hours I've spent simply doing things like sliding on ice, whether it be during the Winter Event or in Frostfire's lair. Sometimes silly things are fun to do. Remember when all the ponds froze over during the first Winter Lord attack? Man, those were some good times. |
If I ever win the lottery, I'll make it. Only then though, because as cool as these details are--- as much as I'd want them--- I don't have much faith in the general player public to appreciate it enough to pay off the effort needed to develop it. It'll be my money pit... but I'll love every moment of it. The devs here could very well have the same passion for those kinds of ideas, but they're working with someone else's money, so I forgive them for being more careful with how its spent.
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The Coralax or some other group is trying to submerge Talos Island or some place, so heavy waves, rain, etc., will persist as long as they're out and about mucking with the weather? Could be done in April, with the badges all being flower related (April showers bring May flowers - is that how it goes?).
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
I find her attitude refreshing and vote NO to it unless there is a COMPELLING reason.
Gameplay aspects that are random or scheduled are horrible ideas, so it would only work if it was some kind of event. |
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I think we can all agree that minimal effects like that would be fun. But a total weather system for most of the zones in the game . . . no.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
But can you imagine how ineffably COOL it would be to have all that stuff? Look at all the wasted development time on places such as Warburg where no one ever goes. Simply by shifting all the Dev time used on that PvP nonsense -- which by the game's very nature is impossible to balance and no fun to play outside of extremely restricted builds and methods -- we could've had all those neat things.
Maybe it would've caused trouble with low-end systems, but the Devs have proven themselves equal to tricky technical tasks like UltraMode and power customization. I have faith in their abilities to figure out a way around the worst aspects of adding weather. War Witch may not like weather because there's no "gameplay value" -- whatever that means -- but fun is fun, and "fun" is more than reason enough to add something to a game. I don't know how many hours I've spent simply doing things like sliding on ice, whether it be during the Winter Event or in Frostfire's lair. Sometimes silly things are fun to do. Remember when all the ponds froze over during the first Winter Lord attack? Man, those were some good times. |
Not until they finish up the large wish list of customization (for pcs and the older zones) on their plate. I see weather on the same priority as drivable cars/vehicles.
Of course if they want to stick it into a booster pack for those that want it and would like to directly pay for its development, that's an option.
*runs*
Don't hurt me.
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I suggest they just ANNOUNCE it for release in April and then not deliver it... also would be very appropriate :P|
Originally Posted by Psyte
The Coralax or some other group is trying to submerge Talos Island or some place, so heavy waves, rain, etc., will persist as long as they're out and about mucking with the weather? Could be done in April, with the badges all being flower related (April showers bring May flowers - is that how it goes?).
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Sadly, wave effects are some of the more challenging things to bring to the game and render dynamically with any sort of not-looking-like-crap results.
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You heard it here first, folks. We're getting a new tavern. My recommendations on interiors...|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Hey, folks. Here's the actual quote:
"Ive never been a huge fan of weather for the sake of weather and Ive said not on my watch in the past, but if there is a compelling gameplay reason to do it, not just because its cool, Id reconsider. So far, no ones come up with one, but Im open to ideas." Note that this is a far cry from "solid no." As with all things, we'll look at the priorities of the project at hand and introduce new tricks when they make sense. Cheers. |
or
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(my favourite, by the way.)
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See now, I can see THAT being a ZONE event in one or two zones that they use with their new zone event tech.|
Originally Posted by Psyte
The Coralax or some other group is trying to submerge Talos Island or some place, so heavy waves, rain, etc., will persist as long as they're out and about mucking with the weather? Could be done in April, with the badges all being flower related (April showers bring May flowers - is that how it goes?).
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Even better as it doesn't knock out mobs needed for hunts, for a large amount of time.
The part I bolded however, probably wouldn't be easy to create and have it look good.
Soooooo, we are back to the "use of developer time issue".
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With their already being a guy in pocket d named Sam the Bartender which is the spitting image of Sam from Cheers... Why not just add a fat man and a mail man and the actual cheers style bar? I guess the lawsuits would start to pile though...
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Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
You heard it here first, folks. We're getting a new tavern. My recommendations on interiors...
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Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
Played plenty of other games with rain cycles, and if anything, it annoys me. Sure it is more realistic (...I guess...if it is realistic to rain in 5 minute bursts 80 times a day), but it changes nothing at all. All the NPCs are still out, all the mobs are still out, and apparently I'm the only person sitting there thinking "Huh, maybe I should get my character out of the rain. I like my character, and dont want him to get sick."
CoH does not need that. Maybe something for another game down the line, when everything is being built from the ground up, but lets not waste time with that.
I, of course, would love to see water frozen over during the winter events, some lights and trees put up in City Hall, Wenty's, and other places of interest, heck even a nice blanket of snow on the hill in Talos would be awesome (especially if it was made slippery so we could slide down it). I'd also love to see decorations had Halloween put up, pumpkins at many doors, ect.
But ultimately, it would be fun for the first couple days when it happens every year, and then it would be ignored until the next time it happens. The amount of time to go into something like that would probably be fairly large, and I do not think it would be worth it.
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Well, mostly because the bars in Pocket D are dumps.
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
With their already being a guy in pocket d named Sam the Bartender which is the spitting image of Sam from Cheers... Why not just add a fat man and a mail man and the actual cheers style bar? I guess the lawsuits would start to pile though...
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I would love for weather effects to be added into the game. It's always sunny in Paragon; does get old, espically for some of us going on close to 7 years..... However I understand War Witch's reasoning and agree with her, and also disagree with her.
My computer's graphics card is not up to par so I do not get to enjoy all the pretty graphical improvements that have been made. Granted the game needed a face-lift, but what did it do to the overall game. Nothing. It did not make fighting better, or story arc better...just prettier. This was just a visual improvement, nothing more. So this is where I disagree with her "not on my watch" attitude. I would love to see storm weather patterns that reflected actuall seasons, winds blowing in, the leaves on trees changing colors, leaves blowing in the air. Rain, snow, hail... all would be wonderful additions to the game.
Now I do not agree with the OP of this thread's creator of zone specific events; IE enemy AI leaving the area ect. But they should reflec what's going on. You wouldn't see the Hellions hanging out in the streets during a snow store, wearing, t-shirts and shorts; but rather longsleeve and pants. They wouldn't need sissy umberellas like the NPC's walking around, they are to bad%@@ for that.
Again this only benefits visuals and there is no benefit towards game play.
Also the idea that weather affects the powers is a bad one. Oh man it's raining, guess I'll have to wait to play my FIRE/FIRE Blaster. But that could lend to really cool audio sound effects and steam coming off of the fire as it blasts through snow/water.
When they were showing off the tech specs of the ultra mode, one of the things shown was the shadow effects. Shadows are a cool effect, but I'm not going to stand still long enough to watch my shadow move from one side of me to the other, or for that matter watch how a shadow falls around a building. This is also visual and honestly a waste of time and has no real reason to be added into the game. Since it was added, it seems a bit hypocritical to say, shadows are important, but weather is not. How much time was "wasted" in making the shadow effect, or the reflection effect. I have no idea, but could not that same time be used towards weather?
Now this is where a agree with War Witch and others that have posted. What purpose does it serve in game? Answer, none. Is it going to somehow affect my indoor defeat all mission? Nope. Where is the fun in having weather? Just like shadow effects, only cool the first time, after that, we all get blinders and take the small things for granted. Could we turn the effect off? I would hope so.
What I got from her statement is, I don't want it, but show me a reason to put it in and I will. So for those of you that want it. Find a reason other than visually to get it added to the game.
For me I would love to have weather, but I would rather the time be spent adding new zones and missions to the game.
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Originally Posted by Ulysses_Dare
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I don't disagree with WW here, but her reasoning I don't really find all that sound. What is a "compelling gameplay reason?" |
"Ive never been a huge fan of weather for the sake of weather and Ive said not on my watch in the past, but if there is a compelling gameplay reason to do it, not just because its cool, Id reconsider. So far, no ones come up with one, but Im open to ideas." |
Is setting the mood enough? There are plenty of missions that could benefit from weather in that regard.
Does it have to be a specific locale? Do we have to travel to the to the south pole to warrant a snowstorm? Do we need to travel to London to warrant a drizzle?
What was the compelling gameplay reason to make the fog in DA? Why not anywhere else?
I don't think that weather will necessarily warrant a massive graphics requirement. Consider a rain shower. In the real world your ability to see rain falling is quite low, beyond 2-3 feet all you see is an increasing level of greyness. I think we already have a zone that is quite grey...Dark Astoria. Assume we ignore that first 2-3 feet in our rendering. All we have left is greyness and the sound of water falling. There are some other effects that would be needed to help sell the fog of rain sound. Things like ripples in water, dripping from rooves, squishy splashing sounding footsteps. I doubt this would be much more demanding on a video card than DA. Since your greyness is going to be obscuring anything beyond a certain range You could say that beyond that limit you no longer need to render the environment as well, to balance the added "load" of ripples and drips.
That's a rainshower, could you simulate the effect for snow or a typhoon? Probably, but it might take more effort and inventivness from the team. For almost any weather effect i think you can ignore the fine details that bog down computers and focus on some of the broader detail with little fourishes to sell the overall effect. I'd like to see them try, make a mission or two as testbeds and give it a whirl. I opened with a quote from WW and I'll finish with one from the same article.
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| Other MMOs encourage us to continue to take new risks and keep on innovating. And honestly, I think we try to compete against ourselves more than anything. We wanted City of Villains to be better than the original City of Heroes, and we worked to make City of Heroes Going Rogue even better than City of Villains. And thats what weve been doing for over six years. |
Roxy On DA...Finally!
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The fox shoots, the fox scores. The crowd goes wild.
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Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
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Take this risk. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Weather effects for the sake of having them. No.
"But other games have them!!!"
So? Why are we trying to be like everyone else? We should be different as much as possible.
"But what about Ultra Mode? That doesn't do anything for the game!!"
Ultra Mode doesn't do anything? Uh huh... It gives the graphic level a much needed kick in the pants, and brings the game away from "this is old-looking." It gives people a chance to use more of their high-end graphics cards. It allows the art team to design better costume pieces. It lets them design a city that looks more like a city should look like. Ultra Mode was necessary. Weather is not.
If the game gets weather effects, as long as they're not hard on the computer, and look well done, I wouldn't complain a bit about them. If they continue to do other things and leave it on the "we'll think about it" pile, oh well. I'd rather they have a reason to have weather (tying it into RL seasons, or writing missions that require them) if they're going to put it in at all.
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Let's not and say we did. Honestly, every zone looking like Dark Astoria when it rains? Ugh, no thanks. I despise that zone precisely because I cannot see anything in it. I avoid it at all costs.|
Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
Take this risk. |
I've played several games with weather effects. I was unimpressed by all of them. As someone else in the thread pointed out, the first time it's cool. After that it gets annoying.
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it's a haunted, zombie-filled wasteland?
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Originally Posted by the_fox_Rox
What was the compelling gameplay reason to make the fog in DA?
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