Challenge of "Incarnate TFs"
By
blueruckus,
Posted on: 2010-11-12 11:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
yeah. Here's a thought.
try playing the TFs before making this kind of post.
I don't understand why you're being so negative about this post. I was asking a question to those who have played the content and not making an 'OMG DOOOM!' post.
Edit: Oh, nevermind, from looking at your previous posts I see why now.
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After you play them you will see that is not the case. They auto spawn at lvl 54, and the AVs in them are an experience like nothing else in the game.
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Cool. Thanks, Zyphoid. It's reassuring to hear that. Looking forward to it.
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In the beta thread, it says you get knocked down to level 46 without the Alpha slot. So you'd be facing enemies that are +8 to you. Perhaps those guys were having a bit of fun with those of us not in the beta, but on the face of it that sounds pretty lame.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
After you play them you will see that is not the case. They auto spawn at lvl 54, and the AVs in them are an experience like nothing else in the game.
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When targeting a player that does not have anything slotted in the Alpha Slot, their level shows as "50 (-4)". I ran the TF while under this debuff, and my own display said that I was fighting at level 50. I did not feel particularly nerfed, but then again Phantom Army is indestructible, I have a ridiculous amount of accuracy bonuses, and my Empathy buffs work just the same for my teammates regardless of combat level.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
In the beta thread, it says you get knocked down to level 46 without the Alpha slot. So you'd be facing enemies that are +8 to you. Perhaps those guys were having a bit of fun with those of us not in the beta, but on the face of it that sounds pretty lame.
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The (-4) debuff affects some characters harder than others.
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okay, so I can just skip rest-thanks!
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
Disclaimer: I have not played any of the I19 content, but have only read about it through the forum discussions.
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What's the point of this? Really? Helpful people like Leandro were able to provide constructive input to my questions yet you decide to post this type of sarcastic reply for no apparent reason. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
okay, so I can just skip rest-thanks!
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It took more effort to respond in that manner then to just think 'That guy's an idiot. Next.' and ignore the post.
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Okay. Here's the basic problem Blueruckus.|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
What's the point of this? Really? Helpful people like Leandro were able to provide constructive input to my questions yet you decide to post this type of sarcastic reply for no apparent reason.
It took more effort to respond in that manner then to just think 'That guy's an idiot. Next.' and ignore the post. |
Many of us responding have been through several beta tests in the past. We've also learned to identify patterns in posts that appear on the forums by basic wording, timing, or tone of the post itself.
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| Disclaimer: I have not played any of the I19 content, but have only read about it through the forum discussions. |
This can create confusing threads where players run with ideas or statements by other players that were ideas or conjecture, then treating those ideas or conjectures as lore-fact. A good case in point, the popular belief that incarnates were supposed to be a part of the retail Going Rogue release, a belief that is not supported by the time-line of Going Rogue's public notices of development, nor by developer statements.
It is my opinion that the only way Feedback or discussion threads can be productive is if everybody involved is on a level playing field. In the case of new content like the Incarnate Content, that means having at least made attempts at the Task Forces.
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| From my understanding, if you do not have the Alpha Slot slotted on the new "Incarnate TFs" you will be fighting at -4 levels. Is this essentially the main challenge behind the TF? |
As a spoiler note here: If you are waiting for the release, don't read the following
The default setting for the two Incarnate Taskforces is Plus 4 Levels.
This means that players without the incarnate slot will be fighting at minus 8 levels to the enemy targets.
You've admitted that you didn't even play the new incarnate TFs and basing your whole post off assumptions of what was posted in the closed beta.
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Essentially it's like going up to a person and saying "Hey I've read some where that if you put your hand in water it gets wet. I never did that before so is that true?" and there happens to be a bucket of water next to you. I guess what some of the people are trying to say in subtext, this is just speculation on my part, is to try it out first before posting and formulate your own opinion and facts, vs. posting speculations and assumptions with nothing to really back it up. Thus drawing people into this thread, and to them, perceive it as a very big waste their time.
| Disclaimer: I have not played any of the I19 content, but have only read about it through the forum discussions. |
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Well I'm sorry if I offended some of you by discussing the TF without playing it. It's not released on live and I don't plan on playing it until it is live. However, my question was based off of information that is known to be fact from the now Open Beta thread.
Yes, I realize that enemies are at 54 in the new TFs and that without the Alpha slotted you're modified to be at -4 which is essentially -8 to those enemies. I also realize that with the Alpha slotted you do not receive the handicap. Being at -8 to an enemy makes you extremely ineffective and essentially a liability (I am very familiar with the purple patch value modifiers). None of this is speculation on my part, but rather information that has already been discussed in other forum posts.
I am in no way making any wild accusations or crazy speculations in my original post. My main question was whether or not these new TFs were genuinely more challenging than existing content or is the challenge just in the fact that you are neutered if you don't have the Alpha slotted.
Once again, I AM not trying to insinuate any negative feelings but rather trying to get feedback from those who have already played and tested the TFs.
I have received a few positive responses and am very appreciative of their informative nature.
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I am curious as well. i have not played it and my internet connection has been neutered thanks to one of my house-mates refusing to only download an MMO when they are asleep, so If my download and thiers goes concurrently we're talking about 10KB/sec, if that. I won't be doing the open beta this time because of this, if they actually make it out on Tuesday, I'll just wait, download it on live and try.
That doesn't, however, keep me from wondering if this is true. It seems kind of... weird to make you -4 for not slotting the power, it seems kind of cruel and unusual. You're still an 'incarnate' now with the slot so why are you debuffed for that? It doesn't make sense at all for me, but, then again, I may be known a bit for my confusion by now.
Either way, I wish to know of the challenge rating of this, both with and without the debuff in way of Lord Recluse Strike forces. One a scale of difficulty being the same as a Recluse Strike Force or a multiple of it. How many Recluse Strike Force Difficulties are we talking about in the Apex and Tin Mage ones?
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Let me put it like this: There's a reason that the Master of badges for the new TFs, especially Apex, don't require 0 defeats. They're not "bigger bag of HP difficult", more along the lines of "You stop moving, you're dead" or "That's a lot of mines..." difficult.
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Awesome. That has me excited to try it, now, then. I am still sad at the -4 levels part if unslotted, but I am tempted to do it JUST to see if I can get a group to run through it successfully for the glory of saying 'Our team did it under the debuff'.
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I was on the first run Leo was referring to, and I would have never known he was unslotted if he hadn't told us. His heals, and buffs functioned all the same. The -4 (-8) seems to only mater for hitting, and damage, both yours, and theirs.
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Originally Posted by Quinz
Awesome. That has me excited to try it, now, then. I am still sad at the -4 levels part if unslotted, but I am tempted to do it JUST to see if I can get a group to run through it successfully for the glory of saying 'Our team did it under the debuff'.
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You asked valid questions. Some people seem to think the forums are a version of PVP.
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
I am in no way making any wild accusations or crazy speculations in my original post. My main question was whether or not these new TFs were genuinely more challenging than existing content or is the challenge just in the fact that you are neutered if you don't have the Alpha slotted.
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Really, that's it on the nose.|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
Really though, it SOUNDS like the main purpose of becoming an Incarnate for these TFs is just to avoid a ridiculous handicap as opposed to truly becoming a god.
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They invented a handicap to put everyone at -8 and they enforce another artificial handicap on Incarnates to make them fight at -4.
If you normally fight enemies at equal con and then the devs automagically boost them to 54, how is that supposed to make you more powerful?
It doesn't, and that's the grand joke of i19: "We give you 5% more power, we give the enemies a 400% boost and say you're a god as you faceplant more than ever."
Hilarious. Like self-trepanation.
And, just like self-trepanation, the TFs do get easier the second time. But the question remains; why even bother in the first place?
A possible reply is: "don't".
Ignore these TFs for now and let them become the new Dr. Quaterfield and Faathim the Kind.
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I respect your opinion but cant help but find the sound of these TFs attractive. Most TFs I do these days tend to be +0 or +1. Most ppl want their merits/xp and dont want to take longer fighting through tougher mobs to hit a brick wall with an AV.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Really, that's it on the nose.
They invented a handicap to put everyone at -8 and they enforce another artificial handicap on Incarnates to make them fight at -4. If you normally fight enemies at equal con and then the devs automagically boost them to 54, how is that supposed to make you more powerful? It doesn't, and that's the grand joke of i19: "We give you 5% more power, we give the enemies a 400% boost and say you're a god as you faceplant more than ever." Hilarious. Like self-trepanation. And, just like self-trepanation, the TFs do get easier the second time. But the question remains; why even bother in the first place? A possible reply is: "don't". Ignore these TFs for now and let them become the new Dr. Quaterfield and Faathim the Kind. . |
I remember a while back it wasnt that uncommon to get a PuG and end up on +3 or +4 fighting purples for the juicy xp. Each fight could be tough and would take a little longer to wear them down. AVs could be tough and dangerous.
Now I dont mind playing everything pretty much at even con nowadays but recently I have really missed the challenge of fighting all purples. Enemies just seem to get cut down like grass. Tanking is like herding sheep with very little danger. I even get frustrated as I hardly get to fire off all my powers from my build I spent loadsa time tweaking to perfection.
I can see that for these TFs the old problem of people wanting specific team make ups maybe a problem again, but I can live with that.
I mean are these TFs that point where those people who steadfastly refuse to use IOs and stick with SOs just cant keep up with the builds packed with sets?
Or are they just frustratingly difficult?
With the Incarnate shard drops people will still play at the normal difficulty (+0/+1) but you'll see a hell of a lot more mob fighting going on in any of the high level taskforces.
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Exactly. And then there are people like je saist that basically just stated since the OP hasn't played the TF, he shouldn't be discussing it. Which makes zero sense.|
Originally Posted by Doughboy
You asked valid questions. Some people seem to think the forums are a version of PVP.
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The OP asked a valid question, something I also wondered. Assuming the new content is still balanced around SOs in addition to the Alpha Slot, wondering how difficult it really is makes sense. Because a fully IO'd out character will still be more powerful than a character slotted with SOs and the Alpha Slot.
I'm looking forward to it, I'm hoping it is stupid hard. I'm very optimistic too. So hopefully Tuesday I get to try it out on live.
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Lemme give you this anecdote. The first time I did Apex was on a well balanced team. Most of us were doing it for the first time and most of us had our common ability slotted. It took us almost three hours and hundreds of deaths to get through it.|
Originally Posted by Charnell
I respect your opinion but cant help but find the sound of these TFs attractive. Most TFs I do these days tend to be +0 or +1. Most ppl want their merits/xp and dont want to take longer fighting through tougher mobs to hit a brick wall with an AV.
I remember a while back it wasnt that uncommon to get a PuG and end up on +3 or +4 fighting purples for the juicy xp. Each fight could be tough and would take a little longer to wear them down. AVs could be tough and dangerous. Now I dont mind playing everything pretty much at even con nowadays but recently I have really missed the challenge of fighting all purples. Enemies just seem to get cut down like grass. Tanking is like herding sheep with very little danger. I even get frustrated as I hardly get to fire off all my powers from my build I spent loadsa time tweaking to perfection. I can see that for these TFs the old problem of people wanting specific team make ups maybe a problem again, but I can live with that. I mean are these TFs that point where those people who steadfastly refuse to use IOs and stick with SOs just cant keep up with the builds packed with sets? Or are they just frustratingly difficult? |
Second time I did it was on an all melee team. All of us knew what to expect and took the time to get our uncommon abilities. We used what ranged attacks we had on us for one part and if we needed it envenomed daggers. We got done in little over an hour and maybe 80 deaths.
Most importantly on that second run is that we had fun. We knew what we were getting into and fully expected not to get through it. Player skill trumps min maxing any day. However a skilled player who is a min maxer will do just as well.
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Wait, what am I missing here? I don't see these things on Test. How have people played them?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It is on a beta server similar to how GR was done.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Wait, what am I missing here? I don't see these things on Test. How have people played them?
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Disclaimer: I have not played any of the I19 content, but have only read about it through the forum discussions.
From my understanding, if you do not have the Alpha Slot slotted on the new "Incarnate TFs" you will be fighting at -4 levels. Is this essentially the main challenge behind the TF?
I guess it may be my fault for speculating, but when the devs spoke about the Alpha Slot being HIGHLY recommended I assumed that it was because the Alpha Slot/becoming an incarnate will grant you increased godly powers to allow you to handle the new challenges of these TFs.
Really though, it SOUNDS like the main purpose of becoming an Incarnate for these TFs is just to avoid a ridiculous handicap as opposed to truly becoming a god.
Is this really the case? Are the actual TFs any much harder than the current content? I was hoping this was the case but now it just seems like the whole "Alpha Slot recommended" hype is kinda just a big gimmick.
Thoughts?
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run