Bait and switch Aegis Mez protection.

I don't know if I would use the term "reliably" to describe the ability of support toons to mez opponenents. Especially when soloing at higher levels or if running on a difficulty level above the default level. Then there are those opponents with mez protection. This includes some select enemy groups, as well as normal Bosses/Elite Bosses.

Kind of hard to protect yourself from incoming mez attacks if your opponent has mez protection.



Want to know how bad it is in regards to lack of mez protection/opponents with mez protection? Try reading the Dominator board and look up "PToD" or the Kheldian boards. The biggest Dominator gripe tends to be the opponents with mez protection (especially Elite Bosses). And the lack of Human form mez protection irks many Kheldian players. They suffer from "SIDs" (Stuck In Dwarf Syndrome) as a result of the overwhwelming amount of mez attacks level 35+.




And as for the second part of this quote, your analogy is flawed. The complaint stems from being mezzed when you can't mez an opponent.

It would be like a melee toon fighting an opponent with ranged attacks that they could never close to melee range on, or fighting one that could bypass their defense/resistance powers. Try reading the Test Server board. The new Winter mission has all the Scrappers/Tanks ******** about the Winter Lady and her melee range -resist -defense debuff that stacks.

I guess you completely missed the compromise I offered earlier in the thread. In fact I KNOW you missed it because you responded to the last sentence in the post and disregarded the rest.

I will repeat it, even though I shouldn't have to. Here is exactly what I said, quoted from my own post.


You keep saying I'm being unreasonable. Yet you are the one who completely ignored my attempt at a compromise we could all live with. So, who's being unreasonable again?

Isn't the bolded/italicized part EXACTLY what you're asking for? And I said I wouldn't have a problem with it. But yet I'm somehow being unreasonable. Right.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Ok, enough of the BS factor here!

You keep saying support has tools, I been telling you over and over, yeah they got tools but they are questionably effective, shown you the numbers, can't you read? Or playing coy in a very self-serving manner?

You say Melee can not mez mobs reliably, ding, ding, nor can Support! But your protections are 100% reliable! And Melee do have ranged mez ability thru their epic choices, in fact just as strong as those owned by Support; the problem they have "is the same" problem support has with theirs, duh: "Its not reliable"

Love your comic book note, that is great, can you tell me any names of any hero that is automatically succumbed to the weakest foe in the field consitently? What is his name? Captain wooz?

Stormy

What numbers have you shown? Seriously. Where are the numbers that back up exactly what you say? Because the only ones that I've seen from you don't support the claim that you are trying to make about them. Their tools fall into a number of categories:

1) Always on mez protection (Force Field and Sonic)
2) Mostly always on mez protection (Traps)
3) Stealth, allowing you to get first shot (Dark, Cold, and Storm)
4) Buff/Debuff set controls (Dark, Storm, Radiation, Traps, Trick Arrow)
5) Accuracy Debuffs (Radiation, Dark, Trick Arrow, Traps)
6) Blast set control powers (all blast sets to some extent)

Now, the only sets that don't have SOMETHING to help you take out the enemy before you takes a shot at you are Thermal, Empathy and Kinetics. I have yet to see anybody seriously state that Kinetics is underpowered and needs a serious buff. Empathy can do some very nasty things on a team, and is very much a team-focuses set, and the same thing with Thermal. Those sets are designed with a teamer in mind. If you want to solo with them, you don't get much to help you, and that is by design because of how much they can help the whole team.

So, again, you want your support characters, which act as large force multipliers on teams, to be able to have 100% reliable protection from Mez effects like melee does, even though melee characters cannot possibly buff the team/debuff the enemy anywhere near as effectively as your support characters. Is that right?

Again, if you are consistently succumbing to the weakest mob in the field consistently, you are doing something wrong.

This is largely the point I have been making.

Support ATs can prevent mez reliably enough that they are indeed soloable.

Is it perfect 100% defense? No, it is not, I never said it was effective 100% of the time. "Reliable" doesn't necessarily mean "100% Effective", nor should it be considered to mean it.

Given a team situation, things go like this: The Controller locks down the spawn, the scrapper hits something in the face. The Defender buffs their teammates, the scrapper....hits something in the face. The Corruptor debuffs the enemy, the scrapper....yup, you guessed it.....hits something in the face.

My point? Scrappers are self contained because they are absolutely pathetic at supporting their teammates. Their response to everything is hit "something in the face". A tanker is rather the opposite, they tend to be hit in the face themselves instead.

Support ATs can do a wide variety of things. Debuffing, buffing, healing, controlling. Melee ATs basically just hit stuff.

So, when a melee AT becomes as versatile as a support AT, then the support AT can be as self-contained as the melee.


Truth.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

that is why a majority of an emps powers are team buffs/heals. so they can help their scrapper team mates.

The Aegis has never been a pure Global. The Psi Res component has been, but the Mez Res has always been an oddity like the Force Feedback +Rech: a proc that grants a Set Bonus. Originally it was a +5% bonus that could stack up to 5 times and had an effectively infinite duration. So after 5 castings you would have 25% Mez Res until you zoned.

I bug reported that behavior (since it added up to 25% Mez Res instead of 20%, as well as the odd ramp up) back in the Beta, and in the issue or two after that. I hadn't tested it recently but vaguely remember noticing the Mez Res had been reduced to 20%; not just in the description, which hasn't changed, but in fact as well (must have been on an old toon in use in I18 beta, as I don't use that IO anywhere on live), but hadn't looked closely enough to see that it was bugged. And, like you say, lasting only 10s in a click has to be a bug.

Yes, brilliant idea. Make scrappers all but impossible to play without having an Empath in their back pocket all the time.

And no, support characters are NOT impossible to play without an Empath, myself and several thousand other people prove that on a daily basis.

If you strip away mez protection from scrappers, you will be relegating them to the "why would anyone play this AT?" category. Most have no way to reliably mez an opponent first, and even the ones who DO must be in melee range before they can. How exactly is that Broadsword/Shield/Body scrapper going to stop an opponent from mezzing them? Especially if it is a non-positional mez like Carnies and Rikti will throw at you.

It sounds very much like you don't play scrappers. If you do play them, try this: Log your scrapper in and run a Malta or Carnies mission with your mez protection turned off and see how long you live. Even if you're playing one of the sets with a mez in the primary, you still have to get into melee range first.

I have said it, and others have said it. Melee characters get mez protection because they have zero inherent ability to pre-empt a mezzing attack at range, and since they are forced into melee range, they will be getting hit with both melee and ranged mezzes. Support characters do not get mez protection because the majority of them do have the ability to pre-empt them in either their primary or secondary. Also, a support character can avoid melee mezzes completely and remain combat effective.

Granted, support ATs do not have 100% reliable mitigation, but if you slot some accuracy, your mitigation should be at 95% against LTs and lower. And yes, I know there are enemies above LT, but you can choose to not face bosses while solo, which is where the majority of the complaints seem to be coming from.

Complaints about fighting bosses with mez powers on support ATs was addressed when they gave us the ability to downgrade them to LTs. And for the record, yes, a Freak Tank or Fake Nemesis that is downgraded to an LT DOES count towards the badges, so getting the badges you need to kill bosses for is no excuse. I frequently downgrade bosses to LTs on my support characters, because A) If they have mez powers I can mez them first, and B) They die faster so I don't have to spend so long hitting one dude.

You don't have to fight those mezzing bosses while solo, and on a team they shouldn't be a problem.

How exactly is stripping the mez protection from scrappers addressing your problem at all? It really doesn't, because scrappers need it to function properly, and support ATs have been getting along just fine for 6+ years without it. You're also failing to take into account the likelyhood that if support ATs are given passive mez protection, the amount of mez being thrown around in the game will increase dramatically, and no one wants that, not even me.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Scrappers dont need mez protection any more than blasters or defenders do. You can team and get buffed. You can take TP and be in melee range instantly. You have high defense to prevent a lot of it from hitting you. You shouldnt be taking the alpha strike, that is the tanks job. He/she need mez prot, not the scrapper. Oh yeah, you can always pop breakfrees. Your defensive toggles wont even drop. Why is it the rationalization for squishies not having any mez protection no matter how minor doesnt apply to scrappers? Scrappers are DPS. they are not and should never be tanks. If they do have a tanking role their damage should be lowered. Blasters gained damage to make up for no defense. Scrappers have high damage and good defense. What exactly did they give up to maintain balance?

Blasters have Defiance and Defenders are back-line support and a lot of them do have mez protection or mezzes of their own. Scrappers have to be right in the middle of everything all the time, even if they aren't taking alpha. This is a dumb argument. Unless you also intend to make all Scrapper attacks have an 80 foot range.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

So, screw those that want to solo on scraps? Yeah, dumb idea. And as for you saying they aren't and should never be tanks, I have a kat/sr that would love to debate with you about that since he has tanked many an ITF and other TF's.

Funny the same people howling that scrappers should be able to solo are against squishies having any sort of passive mez protection. Why exactly should a scrapper be able to solo, yet a defender cannot. And no, scrappers are not tanks. if you want to tank, roll one. One of the nice things about COX is the bleedover between AT's. You can find exceptions for just about any role/rule. There are tools available that a scrapper can solo without mez protection, if he chooses to take them. It just wouldnt be a easy as it is now.

Defenders can solo fine, just not at the speed and ease of a Scrapper. And if you want a reason, it's because Scrappers don't have Fulcrum Shift, Dispersion Bubble, and Fortitude. Some classes are built for soloing, and some for teaming. They fill different roles and perform in some areas better than others. That's basically the definition of a class system.

What you're asking for is for Defenders (and other non-melee ATs) to be tankmages who can solo like a Scrapper AND buff teams in ways that Scrappers can only dream of. Failing that, you want to nerf Scrappers out of spite.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

2 points of passive protection=tank mage...riiiggghht. you like the present imbalance and want to keep it.

as for fortitude, you might have a point if fort could be self cast......

My Rad/Sonic AV soloing defender would like to have a word with you about that. (for the record, once I solve his endurance issues he'll be soloing GMs too).

My Dark Miasma/Dual Pistols defender has a thing or two to say as well.

You act like just being a defender means you can't ever solo, and it just isn't true. Sure, my Dark and Rad defenders are among the better soloing sets, but if you're playing Empathy or Kinetics why are you so pressed about being able to solo them when they shine on a team?

If you can't effectively solo with a support character, the problem is with YOU, not the game. Myself and thousands of other people solo support characters all the time. Unless you think the people saying they solo fine are lying just to spite you, and I can assure you, I'm not lying about my ability to solo a defender.

And no, soloing does NOT mean running at x8. Soloing means running missions by yourself, the difficulty you are set at is completely irrelevant.


That's weird, my Broadsword/Shield scrapper tanks for small teams all the time. Sure, he's probably not going to be main-tanking an ITF or tanking Recluse on an STF, but he does just fine holding agro for 3-4 man teams. If he didn't have mez protection, that would be impossible for him to do.

Also, I brought it up before, but what about things like Tsoo Green Ink Men, who have 3 melee stun powers and spawn in groups of 8 to 10 in Talos. They can already stun a melee character through their mez protection. So, the answer is to force a scrapper to run in terror from those groups while a hovering support character can kill them all in perfect safety? (because Green Ink Men have zero ranged mezzing ability, their stuns are all melee range)

Scrappers hit things in melee range, and that is ALL they do. They cannot buff a teammate, or debuff the enemy, they do not have even close to the same amount of versatility that a support character can have. Various support powersets can do many different things, while scrapper powersets are nothing more than different flavors of hitting things.

I've said it before, and I suppose I'll say it one more time: When my scrapper has the same level of versatility as your support character, maybe then your support character can have the same level of self-sufficiency. If you have a support-heavy team, those scrappers that solo so well start to get less and less useful, especially the ones with mostly single target oriented sets like Dark Melee or Martial Arts.

What you are saying is that your defender needs to get the exact same soloing efficiency as a scrapper, without losing any of the team support versatility they are known for.

Scrappers are designed for solo efficiency because they lack any real team support ability. And you think they should lose that solo efficiency without gaining any additional team support ability.

But apparently the people telling you that is dumb are the ones being unreasonable.

Right.

There seems to be quite a bit about game balance you don't understand here. Scrappers are self sufficient because they add very little to a team. Defenders are more team reliant because they can make that team nearly invincible. Thus, defenders should not be as self sufficient as scrappers until scrappers add more to a team. That is known as balance.

But nooooooo. Defenders should be able to solo just as well as a scrapper AND team better, because that's the only way it would be fair. I find it hard to believe that you don't realize how ridiculous that argument is.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Two points wouldn't do anything. If you want that you can pick up Acrobatics which gives mag 2 for holds. But I don't think you'll find many enemies casting mag 2 holds. But even if you had mag 12,000,000 you still wouldn't be able to solo at the safety or speed of a Scrapper, so your entire "why can't Defenders solo" argument still wouldn't be satisfied.

And if you want Fortitude to be self-cast you still don't understand the class system concept. Defenders aren't there to take hits and kill things quickly. That's a Scrapper's job. Defenders are there to support and back up their allies. They're a team-oriented class. They aren't supposed to be solo experts and never will be designed that way. I'm sorry you consider that unfair somehow. You're literally asking for Defenders to be able to solo as well or as fast as Scrappers AND be able to do so from range AND be able to support a team exceptionally well. What would be the point of a Scrapper? Or half the ATs in the game at that point for that matter?

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

This^^

The design reason for scrappers to have mez protection, which was discussed many times in the past, is because mez protection is intended to prevent personal defenses from being detoggled, and because scrappers would be under both a higher threat of mez being in melee range, and higher threat of aggro and damage from being in close proximity to the enemy. Solo, these are less of an issue than teamed, but solo Scrappers are intended to be more self-sufficient in general.

Basically, scrappers gave up range relative to blasters, damage mitigation relative to tankers, and team utility relative to other archetypes. If you think Scrappers got the much better trade, you're supposed to play scrappers and be happy. That's why there's more than one archetype in the game. The players playing defenders and controllers are doing likewise.

The design imperatives for the archetypes, by the way, are:

1. They should provide different game play experiences
2. They should excel in orthogonally different areas.
3. They should perform roughly the same in terms of overall average progress across the player base.

Nowhere on that list is the requirement that they meet some paper-balance metric, deliberately so. Those are distant very low priority requirements.


And by the way, the devs acknowledged that the mez vulnerability of blasters specifically was too high and affecting their performance in game as data mined. That admission is implicit in the devs allowing blasters to shoot while mezzed.. That's the mez "protection" blasters have: partial immunity to mez. Why didn't defenders and controllers get the same benefit? Because they aren't having the same problems blasters were having, period. One can claim defenders and controllers need or deserve it just as much, but the player base as a whole, as evidenced by their in-game performance, disagrees.