Bait and switch Aegis Mez protection.

Sadly by now, the great majority of them have secondary mez effects built into their attacks, the main saving grace is that minions do not have very good accuracy, so if a player builds in a bit of range and aoe defense and remains airborne the minion threat is really not that bad. But because it can be mitigated to an extent, it does not mean there is not a problem.

Now I am not against minions, lts, and the rest having mez abilities; I am against ATs not having some true unconditional protections, that is resistances. I am also not saying that ranged ATs should have comparable MAG resistances as melee, but zero is not right either.

I favor minions and all mobs having both melee and ranged attacks, to include secondary status effects; this does make the game more realistic and colorful. I remember this games evolutionary path, at one time you had mobs that were either ranged or melee; this of course lend itself to abuze mostly on the part of Blasters. And it was under the premise that since ranged could not be attacked by the majority of the mobs, ranged was an exceptionally good form of protection. Further more, since the so called support ATs were essentially ranged, then they had no real need to have status effect protections. All extremely logical and adequate deductions. Good, bad or indifferent, the devs fixed the shooting fish in a bicket situation, and gave all mobs the ability to have ranged attacks as well as melee; it is also observable that ranged attacks are usually not as hard hitting as melle; a good thing since ranged ATs are weak in the damage resistance arena nad have reduced hit points when compared to their melee counterparts. At the time, mobs evolved ranged attacks, the mez craze the devs eventually institutionalized had not occurred. So mobs with modest ranged attacks could provide the ranged ATs with a degree of challenge. Thus at this time, the need for ranged ATs to have better protections were not relevant; also at this time the actual ranges of mob attacks were not that good and could be easily outranged if slotted properly. So the players kinda brought back the shooting at fish in the bucket issue back again. The devs not being one to be outsmarted, responded by giving all the mobs near sniper range to all of the mob's ranged attacks. Thus the Blaster would get the first shot, but then the linked mobs would charge at the Blaster and shortly attain range with their own attacks, which had better range than the Blaster's normal non-snipe ranged attacks, and since snipe can be interrupted, it was now the Blaster that had to move to get in ranged of their primary ranged attacks. By any definition a good and interesting balance had been struck. And still at this time, the need for ranged ATs for better damage and mez mitigation was not really needed. But then things dramatically changed when the devs introduced mez among the mobs across the board and not limited to bosses or better. This was indeed a game changer event! At first about 25% of the minions had mez effects and could be easily detected which ones were equipped with mez and those not after a few engagements. It became kinda like the Melee's experience and practices when Zappers are around. By now the need for unconditional mez protections, more so than damage mitigation started to become much less irrelevant. About this time also, the ranged damages for LTs and Bosses was increased, after all the devs correctly wanted the ranged ATs to feel respect when they got struck by a boss after all. That also was a game changer. The ffect of these changes was that the game lost balance, and support Ats were dropping like flies all the time, that it became a joke. The devs re-adjusted this situation by making "Break Free" inspirations to mitigate the very harsh repecusions of being mob mezzed, and later through the Epic power sets damage resistance was introduced to the ranged ATs.

So far so good, the evolution of the game was in general a good one and challenge was being introduced mostly at the expense of the support ATs. Then somehow the developers determined that there was not enough game challenge (mostly by the complaints of the melee playing players, which were correctly stating a fact), and concluded that the best way to do so was to increase the use of mez in the game. Thus by now about 80% of all mobs across all types (Minion, LT, Boss) are now Mez equipped with near snipe ranged abilities. I must admit the challenge level in the game significantly increased, sadly 100% at the expense of the ranged ATs, since they by design have no unconditional means to resist the tidal wave coming at them.

Since now mez is so prevalent, very well ranged, and essentially spammed; I contend that the balance factors used to determine if ranged Ats needed unconditional protections against mez is needed has dramatically changed. I understand that good play and practices can let players "work around" the problem; but because you can work around it, it does not mean it does not exist. You can have a good sized pot-hole in your street, since you can drive around it, does it cease to be a problem?

I believe that some Mez resistance could be given to Support Ats thru their EPIC damage resistance power, and through some of the innate powers such as Steamy Mist for instance.

It also occurres to me, that not all ranged ATs are really support, I really do not see Blasters as support, that is like looking at Scrappers as support too. Defenders are also not quite all support either, take a Dark/Dark Defender or a Storm Defender, they don't buff the team, and while they debuff the enemy that is really a different form of attack that happens to allow other players to benefit from. I would in fact break Defenders into two classes the true "Support" Defender, and the "Combat" Defender often regarded as an Offender :<). Controllers is a mix bag, but in general they are Support; I do find it extremely ironic that the master of mez is totally enable to resist their own form of attack; its like a Tanker not having armor.

Hugs

Stormy

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

I just don't see that it is a problem that team-oriented ATs should have soloing weaknesses to balance out the huge benefits they bring to teams. Surely that's the very essence of team-v-solo balance?

/this. That poster keeps coming back to the forums that there is some issue with support toons. Team based ATs/powersets make others greater. Therefore, as a balance, there are mobs with powers such as a mez. But Stormfront was uber protection all the time like the melee toons - which are supposed to draw aggro (brutes/brutes) or required to be in melee range (scrappers/stalkers). That poster doesn't realize how powerful these so-called "helpless" toons are.

For example (not sure how many times I have pointed out), I ran an STF with only dark or storm defenders. It was successful. But wait how could we have passed GW or LR with out status protection? Easy. We just ignored them. For GW, we took out the other patrons. If we got held, we just kept healing and fighting. For LR, we just debuffed him and took out the towers while he just kept trying to hit us. No Kin with ID. No emp with CM. No therm with thaw. No son with clarity. Or whatever else.

I keep bringing up asking what game is that poster playing? I have lots of support toons and never see what she is talking about.

When did this happen, exactly?


80% of all mobs across all types now possess mez with sniper ranges? Even if I set aside the issue of what "near snipe range" means and just focus on ranged mez, the number is far lower than that. Not counting knockback attacks, its probably half that number across all critter types counting all mez attacks, including attacks that have only a small percentage chance of triggering. For example, Carnies are one of the most mez-heavy factions, and among the minions there is actually only *one* ranged attack with conventional mez: the Attendant's ring toss. Its a 10% stun. The only other ranged "mez" is the knockback in the Strongmen's hurl powers. The Malta are another mez-happy faction, and actually *none* of their minions has a genuinely ranged mez unless you count the web grenade immobilize as a mez. Its the stun in the stun grenades - used by LTs - that is the ridiculous mez (and probably too long in duration).

The serious mez tends to arrive with LTs, not minions. Even so, only the Illusionists have genuine ranged mez among Carnie LTs, unless you count KB again. All Malta LTs have genuine mez, but interestingly they also tend to have so many attacks they only infrequently open with them.


As an aside, I'm actually testing a new build for my Energy/Energy blaster that is range-focused: after six years of being a blapper, I'm going back to the range-focused roots I started with when I rolled that character. And I'm testing it in, among other things, x1 and x2 missions with Carnie and Malta, just to get a feel for how its going to deal with mez when I'm not constantly opening with bonesmasher and total focus. Actually, I'm finding I like it: even though I end up mezzed more often, with both Power Bolt and Power Blast on fast cycles it also doesn't matter as much as it used to. I don't know how far higher I can crank up with mez-happy factions with limited counter-mez of my own, but it'll be interesting to see. Plus, I only just started the new build, so most of the enhancements are SO placeholders for the eventual IO build, so its not at anywhere near full strength yet.

Melee. Arcana was talking about 'genuinely ranged'.

Or are we calling -end a mez?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.

They have a melee stun, but their ranged attacks are endurance-draining and recovery debuffing, not mezzing. Which is just as lethal in many respects, if not moreso, to melee archetypes without drain protection than it is to squishies.


Protip: Performance Shifter +End is not technically endurance recovery.

So it's melee. Good to know. It was still sad my /Dark Armor scrapper dying to a (by that point) lone sapper though.

All I recall was being chain-stunned by a sapper that had managed to get me good with the sap. Was a while ago, and didn't know it was in a melee attack.

Was that a really long time ago? Dark Armor has resisted drain for quite a while now. And these days if its just one you can probably brawl them to death even fully drained.

I'm pretty sure it's a melee hold. Almost positive, in fact.

There is an epic flaw in your basic assumption here. The fact that the enemies have similar abilities to your own, and ability to harm you, is NOT A PROBLEM. It's a REQUIREMENT for a challenging game.

Can't see the forest for the trees, ah?

What do you think that even means in this instance, Stormy?

Seems to me she thinks it means that enemies having the ability to harm you is a design flaw in the game.

Here's an idea for you: Go play any game that has a cheat code giving you a true god-mode (i.e. nothing can EVER hurt you). Try that and see how long that game stays fun for.

If you are completely immune to EVERYTHING a game can throw at you, it gets boring quickly.

A support character who can softcap to ranged attacks, and remain at range 100% of the time makes a mockery of most content. Since a lot of them have a reliable self heal the small number of ranged attacks that actually land aren't going to pose much threat to them. The ONLY thing that levels the playing field and stops those characters from being overpowered is the very small chance that a ranged mez will land. When only 1 out of every 20 attacks lands, the odds of that one attack being a mez aren't very good.

Even without being softcapped those characters can avoid fully 50% of the mez in any given mission. The ability to stay at range and still fight lets them completely avoid any and all melee-range mezzes, which a melee character will have to deal with.

Okay, so, staying at range avoids every melee range mez. Getting significant defense to ranged attacks (which is NOT difficult, or even that expensive) reduces the chance of being mezzed at range. Most AoE mez is PBAoE, so staying at range avoids probably 75% of them too.

And even on the small chance that a ranged mez DOES land, you have breakfrees to get you out of it. On top of that, most support/ranged characters have access to SOME kind of mez of their own, which they can use on teh mezzing enemy to prevent them from mezzing you.

Helpless against mez indeed.

I don't think I've ever said this to anyone, but I feel it is appropriate in this particular case: Learn to play.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Can't help but second this. My so called "support" toons are far from helpless since I plan ahead, watch the mobs, and don't rush like a lemming, spamming attacks all over the place. This game is already easy enough and the new challenges we are starting to see affects all ATs.

Soft-capping anything makes a mockery of any semblance of difficulty.

Like I said - it was sad that that I died to a sapper.

From what I recall, it was a bad spot, might of actually snagged two sappers - Malta in Orenbenga mission - and they ended up being the last ones I nailed the coffin shut on. Was out of Breakfrees, was pre-combining, and the only attacks landing were the sap and the stun.

And I remember staggering around, it's a stun