Bait and switch Aegis Mez protection.
By
AddamsFamily,
Posted on: 2010-11-11 18:45 in Player Questions
this is why I love Plant Control, my "Mez Protection" is aptly named Seeds of Confusion 
or if I'm playing Mind Control, Mass Hypnosis.
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So, let's see if I got this straight. You admit that with no defenses you probably will not die on a mish set to normal difficulty. I assume you are suggesting this so I get an idea of what it is like to play a support character (which is pretty silly, seeing as how I regularly DO play support characters). |
Originally Posted by Savos
Next time you play solo, try this:
When you miss an attack with a recharge of about 10-15 seconds or so as melee, turn off all your defenses that you can for 45 seconds. On a regular mission you probably won't die. Boosted settings are probably going to ruin your day though. |
I also assume (since I don't recall you having explicitly stated it) that your Sonic/Kin corruptor has no undue problems soloing on the default settings.
Then you state that boosted difficulty settings will ruin your day.
Are you somehow surprised that increasing your difficulty settings make the game harder? The game is designed so that every character in it can solo at the default difficulty setting. It is NOT designed so that every character in it can solo on as high of a difficulty setting as you can have. (For the record, my Rad/Sonic defender CAN solo on higher difficulty settings, I just rarely do it because it takes him too long to kill large spawns due to his single target focus. He's built to be an AV/GM hunter)
Your stance seems to be that because some heavily IOed melee characters can solo at +4/x8, everyone should be able to, and if that's the case it's just silly.
I could just as easily say that because some heavily IOed support characters can solo a Giant Monster, everyone should be able to, and it would be just as ridiculous.
You ARE aware that there are controller, defender, and corruptor builds that can solo Giant Monsters, right? It has been proven on multiple occasions. I know of no melee character that can make the same claim. I have heard of some controller builds that are capable of soloing the STF, and I don't think a melee character has accomplished that feat.
Point of the matter is: Every character in the game is better at something than some other characters. I would cheerfully trade my melee characters' ability to solo at high difficulty for the ability to solo Giant Monsters.
And I'll reiterate the point that, if your character cannot do something, it is very unlikely that simply giving them mez protection will make them suddenly capable of it. (For the record, if you build for sufficient defense, your Sonic/Kin corruptor could probably solo a few of the AVs we have floating around at higher levels. You have the majority of the tools you need within the two power sets.)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Mmm...
I read your need for differentiation, thus it appears to me your position is the very thing I am fighting against: Black and White. I have - You don't have, that is different!
I want shades of grey, You have - I don't have as much, that is different "too".
If we gonna really differentiate, the hard way...
Then Melee should have no status effects as secondaries or primaries, after all isn't that what Controllers do?
Then Melee should have no ranged attacks at all, after all isn't that what Blasters do?
Then Melee should have no self heal or access to self heal, isn't that the job of a Defender?
Then Melee should not have built-in damage boosts, once again, isn't that the Defender's job?
Oh wait, I get it, that is different...
Oh I see another big difference, support ATs have to depend on breakfrees to perform, while melee does not have to depend on inspirations to perform...I see the difference now, and difference must be preserved at any cost!
Stormy
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Please note your own comment, you readily admit that support ATs have multiple ways of preventing mez from minions and LTs, is that the only mob types in the game?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Most support ATs have multiple means of preventing a mez from ever occurring if it originates from a LT or lower.
I see people complaining about it on a somewhat regular basis, and the conversation goes like this a lot of the time: "These mezzing minions keep killing me, and there's nothing I can do about it!" "Well, can't you use the stun in your secondary to stop them from doing that?" "Oh, I skipped that power. It doesn't deal any damage, so it's useless." Most of the time, problems with mez would be solved by paying attention to what is in the spawn, and using your powers a little more intelligently. |
What you so conveniently choose to not recognize or say is, those ways are not 100% fail-proof!
You conveniently claim as player whining about their alt defeat by minions, as to bad play, not use of powers, not knowing what they do. When the truth is the sheer saturation of mez attacks from just about anything ranging from minions to AVs and your having absolutely no passive protections, and your active protections are capricious at best if you even get a chance to use them.
You conveniently choose to ignore the impact of ambushes that insta spawn all around you, and how arbitraty their attacks are, and how pretty much there is "nothing" you can do!
I also sincerely doubt that the folks skipping a key power is endemic, I am sure there may be the one or two newbs, but I sincerely do not believe that is a traditional practice by Support to skip critical survival powers.
Stormy
Ps: Since active protections are not 100% failure proof, maybe melee resistances and defenses should be given a "failure" chance, to simulate the lack of consistency active protections do experience, why not give the melee say a 25% failure chance (it should be 75% which is the support's reality, but the 25% of the time it does work it can be very spectacular, so we give melee a break), it should be ok, as Sharker so often says, they can use inspirations!
Couple things:
The whole tank argument that popped up. You all lost my original point, which was in response to the OP stating that -3 mez protection should be enough for a tank or other melee to do their job. I said it is not and explained why, and was immediately accused of trying to maintain the tank/healer/DPS trinity as a status quo.
The point that got missed in that is: If you were to reduce a tank's mez protection you are reinforcing the trinity even MORE. Why? Because the tank would then require a "healer" to help keep them from getting mezzed and subsequently killed. Since the "healer" is now spending most of it's time keeping the tank alive, it does not get to focus as much on dealing damage, which makes the DPS necessary to efficiently defeat them. By reducing the tank's ability to shrug off mez, you are forcing teams into the trinity if they want a tank to be at all effective. Since tanks are currently self-sufficent, "healers" are not as necessary to their survival so can focus on damage, and the DPS is not as necessary because everyone is dealing damage.
There is an even BETTER reason to not give support ATs passive mez protection, and it seems to have been completely ignored by just about everyone: The devs' wishes, and their track record of how they respond to players doing things they do not want them to do.
The devs don't want support ATs to have passive mez protection. They haven't given it to them after 6 years, and are givig no indication of EVER giving it to them. They have also gone on record in the past explicitely stating that they don't want them to have it. That covers their wishes.
Now for their track record of response to things.
What do you think is going to happen if thedevs relent and give all support ATs passive mez protection? Based on their track record thus far, it will almost definitely be accompanied by an increase of mez frequency AND magnitude across the board. It will essentially work out that the devs will give the support ATs mez protection to stop the complaints, and then arrange it to where that mez protection is almost completely pointless. If support ATs are given mag 3 protection, you will most likely see a number of new enemy types throwing mag 4 mezzes, and you will most likely see an overall increase of the enemy types that have mezzes to begin with. That will suck for everyone, not just the suport ATs, because it won't come with an increase to melee ATs' mez protection, making it less effective as well.
I'm not against mez protection for support ATs per se. I AM against an overall increase in the amount of mez we have to deal with, because they will probably not give us something they don't want us to have without some kind of catch. And knowing how the devs tend to operate, I would expect that to be exactly what happens. And anyone else who has paid attention to the devs' track record should know that I am probably correct in this.
So, if you DO get your precious mag 3 mez protection, DON'T come back and complain that they gave it to you and then made it completely useless.
Now, can anyone say with absolute certainty that I am wrong in my prediction of what will happen? Or is it as likely as I think it is? Look at the devs' track record as far as keeping things within the range they want them to be in and think about it.
They may surprise me and do it the way you guys want......but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
[QUOTE=ClawsandEffect;3334320]
There is an even BETTER reason to not give support ATs passive mez protection, and it seems to have been completely ignored by just about everyone: The devs' wishes, and their track record of how they respond to players doing things they do not want them to do.
The devs don't want support ATs to have passive mez protection. They haven't given it to them after 6 years, and are givig no indication of EVER giving it to them. They have also gone on record in the past explicitely stating that they don't want them to have it. That covers their wishes.
Now for their track record of response to things.
What do you think is going to happen if thedevs relent and give all support ATs passive mez protection? Based on their track record thus far, it will almost definitely be accompanied by an increase of mez frequency AND magnitude across the board. It will essentially work out that the devs will give the support ATs mez protection to stop the complaints, and then arrange it to where that mez protection is almost completely pointless. If support ATs are given mag 3 protection, you will most likely see a number of new enemy types throwing mag 4 mezzes, and you will most likely see an overall increase of the enemy types that have mezzes to begin with. That will suck for everyone, not just the suport ATs, because it won't come with an increase to melee ATs' mez protection, making it less effective as well.
I'm not against mez protection for support ATs per se. I AM against an overall increase in the amount of mez we have to deal with, because they will probably not give us something they don't want us to have without some kind of catch. And knowing how the devs tend to operate, I would expect that to be exactly what happens. And anyone else who has paid attention to the devs' track record should know that I am probably correct in this.
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We have seen all too often, the all excuse..The devs said, the devs think...
By now, we have lots of proof, the devs "do change their ways or minds"
I remember lots of flames and negative posts with the dev said argument such as:
No way we gonna be able to email ourselves, no way we gonna have market mergers, no way we gonna have a mid log in screen to just switch alts with out going to log-in screen, and we can go on and on...
Giving Support "SOME" mez resistance, does not "HAVE" to result in increases of the use of mez, frankly I am hard pressed in seeing how could it be abused even more.
The whole intent of many of my postings is to provide devs with rationale for change, not a whine, please note that I take time and effort to provide number analysis and then comment to the results of my analysis. I give you ample opportunity to review my numbers and then reflect on them, I am yet to see any dis-agreeing posts indicating how my analysis itself is flawed, and thus my conclusions would naturally be in error.
If the devs do privide support with "SOME" mez relief, I would hope it is thru "understanding" and thus balancing the thread value of a particualr mob type to an AT. You advocate much for melee and tanks in particular, I applaud your commitment, but how would you like a minion to have an attack that you simply can't resist and as a result it will result with you being defeated? How would you feel, if all the mobs had such an an ability and it was used all the time?
I sense you tend to think in extremes, and not dwell much in the "in betweens", but tell me, why should a minion be able to have such a threat intensity over a support AT? and given that you think (I mean you, not what you say the devs say) that is appropriate why should there not every minion and above that possesses such an equivalent threat to a tank as well?
Lets say all mobs from here on, have the built-in ability to ignore protections say 50% of the time, how would you like them apples? Paraphrasing Sharker's wisdom: "Eat inspirations!"
Please understand this, I really wish forums could be used in a manner one could disagree with developers and be able to provide a rationale of why. Having posters just disagreeing by throwing insults, using extreme samples, saying a dev once said, having smart allec remarks, giving patch/work arounds, are hardly beneficial for positive change. The devs have demnstrated time and time again, that they can change their minds if provided sufficient reason and volume of requests for change; the past few releases a chuck full of changes.
Stormy
Ps: It is very fine to disagree with me, but all I ask is to please document your rationale. I give you this much, you had documented your concerns to an extent; and because of it, I can reply to your particular objection; that in itself is beneficial.
[QUOTE=ClawsandEffect;3334320]
There is an even BETTER reason to not give support ATs passive mez protection, and it seems to have been completely ignored by just about everyone: The devs' wishes, and their track record of how they respond to players doing things they do not want them to do.
The devs don't want support ATs to have passive mez protection. They haven't given it to them after 6 years, and are givig no indication of EVER giving it to them. They have also gone on record in the past explicitely stating that they don't want them to have it. That covers their wishes.
Now for their track record of response to things.
What do you think is going to happen if thedevs relent and give all support ATs passive mez protection? Based on their track record thus far, it will almost definitely be accompanied by an increase of mez frequency AND magnitude across the board. It will essentially work out that the devs will give the support ATs mez protection to stop the complaints, and then arrange it to where that mez protection is almost completely pointless. If support ATs are given mag 3 protection, you will most likely see a number of new enemy types throwing mag 4 mezzes, and you will most likely see an overall increase of the enemy types that have mezzes to begin with. That will suck for everyone, not just the suport ATs, because it won't come with an increase to melee ATs' mez protection, making it less effective as well.
I'm not against mez protection for support ATs per se. I AM against an overall increase in the amount of mez we have to deal with, because they will probably not give us something they don't want us to have without some kind of catch. And knowing how the devs tend to operate, I would expect that to be exactly what happens. And anyone else who has paid attention to the devs' track record should know that I am probably correct in this.
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We have seen all too often, the all excuse..The devs said, the devs think...
By now, we have lots of proof, the devs "do change their ways or minds"
I remember lots of flames and negative posts with the dev said argument such as:
No way we gonna be able to email ourselves, no way we gonna have market mergers, no way we gonna have a mid log in screen to just switch alts with out going to log-in screen, and we can go on and on...
Giving Support "SOME" mez resistance, does not "HAVE" to result in increases of the use of mez, frankly I am hard pressed in seeing how could it be abused even more.
The whole intent of many of my postings is to provide devs with rationale for change, not a whine, please note that I take time and effort to provide number analysis and then comment to the results of my analysis. I give you ample opportunity to review my numbers and then reflect on them, I am yet to see any dis-agreeing posts indicating how my analysis itself is flawed, and thus my conclusions would naturally be in error.
If the devs do privide support with "SOME" mez relief, I would hope it is thru "understanding" and thus balancing the thread value of a particualr mob type to an AT. You advocate much for melee and tanks in particular, I applaud your commitment, but how would you like a minion to have an attack that you simply can't resist and as a result it will result with you being defeated? How would you feel, if all the mobs had such an an ability and it was used all the time?
I sense you tend to think in extremes, and not dwell much in the "in betweens", but tell me, why should a minion be able to have such a threat intensity over a support AT? and given that you think (I mean you, not what you say the devs say) that is appropriate why should there not every minion and above that possesses such an equivalent threat to a tank as well?
Lets say all mobs from here on, have the built-in ability to ignore protections say 50% of the time, how would you like them apples? Paraphrasing Sharker's wisdom: "Eat inspirations!"
Please understand this, I really wish forums could be used in a manner one could disagree with developers and be able to provide a rationale of why. Having posters just disagreeing by throwing insults, using extreme samples, saying a dev once said, having smart allec remarks, giving patch/work arounds, are hardly beneficial for positive change. The devs have demnstrated time and time again, that they can change their minds if provided sufficient reason and volume of requests for change; the past few releases a chuck full of changes.
Stormy
Ps: It is very fine to disagree with me, but all I ask is to please document your rationale. I give you this much, you had documented your concerns to an extent; and because of it, I can reply to your particular objection; that in itself is beneficial.
I never said "This is exactly what the devs think." I used words like "seem" and "appear", and "have said in the past". That is not saying I know what they are thinking right now, that is a guess at what they are thinking based on what I have seen previously. If someone has responded to a question the same way every time it is asked, would you not consider it a reasonable assumption that they will answer the same way in the future?
Every time I have ever seen a dev respond to a query about mez protection for support ATs, they have responded with something to the effect of "We are happy with how it is now, and have no plans to alter it" Now, based on that, what reason do I have to think they will suddenly reverse their stance on it?
There are wild assumptions based on nothing more than a feeling (which I will admit I've made a couple of), and there are reasonable assumptions based on what has been seen in the past. In this particular case, mine are the latter.
If I turn out to be wrong in this case, I'm sure everyone in this thread is going to say "I told you so". But as of right now, I have no reason to believe it will happen.
I was extremely surprised when it was announced Fitness would become inherent, because Castle went on record saying he would rather do away with endurance altogether than make Fitness inherent. One of two things happened there: A) He changed his mind, or B) he got overruled. I don't know for certain one way or the other, but personally I suspect the latter, because he seemed pretty gung ho about it. And even that came with a catch: Most of us got the ability to take 3 additional powers, but we didn't get any more slots for them.
If the devs truly feel the game is balanced acceptably as it currently stands, like I suspect, we either will A) see no change, or B) we will be given mez protection for support ATs at the cost of reduced effectiveness in some other aspect of their play. So, if B is what happens, what are you willing to give up in return for mez protection?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Mmm, what I would give up for mez protection...|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If the devs truly feel the game is balanced acceptably as it currently stands, like I suspect, we either will A) see no change, or B) we will be given mez protection for support ATs at the cost of reduced effectiveness in some other aspect of their play. So, if B is what happens, what are you willing to give up in return for mez protection?
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Lets see, less hit points would be a good begining; oh yeah much less damage resistance that would be a second thing I would be all too happy to give up, no debuff resistance, yeah I think I could live with out it...
You still are missing my point, minions should "not" have I win buttons, nor should LTs, and questionably Bosses against "any" AT.
Once again, how would you feel if all mobs had "I Win buttons" against your tanker?
Stormy
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Not all mobs have mez. Even if they do it hardly equates to "you instantly lose," and there are plenty of ways to deal with it. Very few minion ranks have mezzes besides.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Mmm, what I would give up for mez protection...
Lets see, less hit points would be a good begining; oh yeah much less damage resistance that would be a second thing I would be all too happy to give up, no debuff resistance, yeah I think I could live with out it... You still are missing my point, minions should "not" have I win buttons, nor should LTs, and questionably Bosses against "any" AT. Once again, how would you feel if all mobs had "I Win buttons" against your tanker? Stormy |
And there are Tanker counters, like Carnival mask debuffs and Sappers.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Breakfrees. Use them.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I'll just reiterate that this comment is as groundless as it was before.
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| The point is that at base levels there is a statistically significant chance that even a very skilled player, that has spent a TON on a support AT could have everything turn on 1 event. Yes, there are breakfrees available for this situation, but as the amount of mez has proliferated, the amount of breakfrees able to be carried hasn't also gone up (or the duration on each hasn't gone up). If this was an issue that was consistent, or even more consistent across ATs, then there wouldn't be a discussion. |
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First, it's not a really a big fuss. It would be a nice, welcome change to try some adjustment to the way mez is in the game. It seems like there are several ways that may work for this. Some people may a preference for one idea or another, but I don't think most are set on one idea. It's far from a fuss to say, "X is out of balance some,and often causes frustration. Not something most people would quite the game over, but it would be a nice QoL change for the people that play support types. But, the reason it's come up at all, if by, "big fuss," you mean, 'raised the issue,' is that almost everything else, you can do with any AT, if you want to, but APP/PPP power selection, or careful IOing. Mez protection is the one area you can't. Wanna blast with a tank? You can. Wanna heal others with a Brute? No prob. Wanna mez with a scrapper? Sure thing. Soft cap a blaster, like a SR scrapper? Easy (maybe expensive, but...). 2/3 the ATs have some mez redress already, so it's not likely gonna be game breaking to look at mezzes again. |
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| And, to further add why it's specifically mezzes and not something else, is that there is a frustration factor of not being able to do anything at all. It's even worse if you can't do anything at all, and are vulnerable. And if proactive defense IS your defense, then getting mezzed is akin to getting all your toggles dropped. Which was so frustrating for tanks and scraps and brutes (even as rarely as they get mezzed) that players lobbied to get that changed, successfully, and justly so. |
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| I'm glad you leveled your corruptors and defender when it wasn't an issue, back when mezzes were rarer. Or that you played only in situations that minimized the effect. Or that you just plain got very lucky. Regardless, it is an issue. Not a huge one. I'm not planning on quitting the game, or even playing certain ATs less. Some people might, but I can't speak for them on that. But, several people have explained the issue quite eloquently, if you wanted to reread through most of the discussion. |
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| I've played 6 defenders and 3 controllers to 50. And about 45 other supports ATs (Corrs, Defs, and Trollers). And I didn't find it an issue either for the first 3 or 4 years I played this game. It really only changed fairly recently. But, if you started playing your support ATs again,and found you were getting mezzed just the right amount for your particular tastes, I'm sure you wouldn't have to slot any theoretical IO they added. Or you wouldn't have to respec into theoretical APP mez protection powers. But I'm fairly confident that if you started playing any of the alts you mentioned again with any regularity, and realized that there is a difference now, and some form of mez protection were made available, you'd seek it out. |
There, I can make baseless assumptions too.
1 of those 50 corruptors is my main. 2 others are played very regularly as well. and I'm currently in the process of leveling 2 other corrs. 1 went through Praetoria.
I still don't have any problems.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
I don't understand why you are off on a tangent here Claws...
You constantly state me and similar thinking people want "protection" which is not the case. Resistance is the word you are looking for, which can be accomplished in two ways:
1. Provide IO sets or powers that have that functionality.
2. Reduce the duration of mez
Either accomplishes the same exact end result. Option 1 requires a bit more careful build planning, while option 2 provides an overall reduction in all cases of duration at all levels instead of 45+.
Here's a modified suggestion since you seem to think that -3 would be the end of all melee (even though I specifically stated you could boost to -5 via enhancement which you ignore):
-3 mag protection, boosted to -5 via ~60% resist enhancement on status protect powers
30% resist, booted to 50% resist via ~60% resist enhancement on status protect powers
Reduce overall duration to sensible numbers by rebalancing powers that are particularly egregious (Malta and Knives Stun, Nullifier stun, etc).
Then you have people in melee that can take a stun/hold/whatever and not die, because they are able to wake up out of it faster if mez ever overcomes even the crazy high -5 protection while still keeping duration manageable by non-melee and status actually has a meaning to all characters instead of completely ignored by all melee.
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hmm... I guess we could all start with ridiculous examples and stupid hyberbole. Doesn't really serve much purpose though, does it?
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
If we gonna really differentiate, the hard way...
Then Melee should have no status effects as secondaries or primaries, after all isn't that what Controllers do? Then Melee should have no ranged attacks at all, after all isn't that what Blasters do? Then Melee should have no self heal or access to self heal, isn't that the job of a Defender? Then Melee should not have built-in damage boosts, once again, isn't that the Defender's job? |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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If you're so desperate, then take the fighting power pool. That will give you your resist toggle within 2 power choices (and controllers especially benefit from the extra damage potential from being able to kick or punch their foes after mezzing them). |
Originally Posted by Savos
A quick browsing through Mid's shows in the grab bag of Controller/Defender/Corruptor/Mastermind sets, there are 4: Arctic Fog (Cold Domination) Sonic Dispersion (Sonic Resonance) Steamy Mist (Storm Summoning) Shadow Fall (Dark Miasma) Four sets with viable spots out of 12 total Con/D/Cor/MM sets slot this IO outside pools or PPP/APP. Who in the world is this IO for? There were no worthwhile mentions in Blaster or Dominator sets. All ATs that have some interest in not getting mezzed, except perhaps perma-Dom Dominators. |
Also, you left out the Force Field and traps sets, which don't need a mezz protection proc because dispersion field and force field generator give you quite a lot of it.
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No, you're absolutely right. Enemies should have no ability to actually defeat us. That will make the game so much more fun. |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Mmm, what I would give up for mez protection...
Lets see, less hit points would be a good begining; oh yeah much less damage resistance that would be a second thing I would be all too happy to give up, no debuff resistance, yeah I think I could live with out it... You still are missing my point, minions should "not" have I win buttons, nor should LTs, and questionably Bosses against "any" AT. Once again, how would you feel if all mobs had "I Win buttons" against your tanker? Stormy |
That's what we really need, a bunch of cardboard cutouts that will stand there and let us hit them.
You are drastically overstating the amount of mez a minion in the game generally has. The way you talk, every minion in the game has a mez, and a support AT hit by it is instantly defeated with no opportunity to do anything about it. Sorry, but that is not even in the same zip code as the truth.
I don't have a huge problem with mezzes, and anecdotal evidence suggests that not a whole lot of other people do either (since it is being argued about by a very small number of people, and I'm quite sure others have read the thread besides just us)
I get your point quite clearly. You think that either everyone should have the ability to ignore mezzes, or they should not exist at all. Because you don't think it is fair that some ATs that are built to withstand them should be able to withstand them better than the ATs that are not built that way.
True Metal makes a good point actually. The amount of mez resistance and protection available to support ATs through power pools is roughly equivalent to the amount of ranged attacks and mez available to a melee AT through power pools.
Combat Jumping has immobilize protection, and Acrobatics has hold protection. Health has sleep resistance in it.
Conversely, melee ATs get one single target mez, one single target blast, and maybe an AoE of some kind. Seems pretty fair to me.
Saying "melee gets mez in their APPs so support should get mez protection" is kind of silly, since support does have mez protection available in roughly equal amounts to what melee gets in mez. If melee ATs got the ability to lock down an entire mob like a controller through their APPs, I might agree that more mez protection was warranted. But since what melee ATs get in mez is so limited, it is perfectly fair that what support ATs get in protection is limited as well.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Power Pool, (same) Power Pool, and a different Power Pool. Everyone takes Stamina so Health is a given, but Super Jump is now forced and doesn't even provide all around protection or resistance. Melee get those for just picking (any?) APP/PPP assuming they want or need them.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Combat Jumping has immobilize protection, and Acrobatics has hold protection. Health has sleep resistance in it.
Conversely, melee ATs get one single target mez, one single target blast, and maybe an AoE of some kind. Seems pretty fair to me. |
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Super Jump isn't forced. It's just there if you want some protection to those Mez types (i.e., the Devs have given you a way to somewhat protect yourself, if you choose not to take those powers, that is your choice, not the Dev fault).
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Originally Posted by Savos
Power Pool, (same) Power Pool, and a different Power Pool. Everyone takes Stamina so Health is a given, but Super Jump is now forced and doesn't even provide all around protection or resistance. Melee get those for just picking (any?) APP/PPP assuming they want or need them.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Super Jump forced? Someone forgot to mention that to me. I'll have to correct that oversight on every single one of my squishies then ...
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Originally Posted by Savos
Power Pool, (same) Power Pool, and a different Power Pool. Everyone takes Stamina so Health is a given, but Super Jump is now forced and doesn't even provide all around protection or resistance. Melee get those for just picking (any?) APP/PPP assuming they want or need them.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Also, not every Tanker takes an APP/PPP, because they don't want or feel the need for them. similarly, not every squishy will take these pool powers, because they don't feel the need for them. If they don't feel the need for them, then maybe it's not a problem for them. At the least, it's not a problem so large that they feel forced to take those powers.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Super Jump forced? Someone forgot to mention that to me. I'll have to correct that oversight on every single one of my squishies then ...
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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The Hold and KB protection in Acrobatics is there if you want it, but you do not have to take it. |
Originally Posted by Savos
Power Pool, (same) Power Pool, and a different Power Pool. Everyone takes Stamina so Health is a given, but Super Jump is now forced and doesn't even provide all around protection or resistance. Melee get those for just picking (any?) APP/PPP assuming they want or need them.
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Similarly,the mez and ranged attacks are in an APP if a melee character wants to take them, but they do not have to.
Nothing is forced on anyone.
Point of the matter is, the devs presented support ATs with a problem. Then they gave them a few tools they can use to solve that problem. Instead of USING those tools to solve the problem, some people decided that it was more logical to bitterly complain that the problem exists in the first place.
If you choose not to use any of the means you have been offered to protect yourself from mez, it is not a flaw in the game. The devs are NOT required to fix your problem for you, especially when they have given you the means to fix it yourself.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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First of all, someone could pick up CJ and Jump Kick to get acro :P|
Originally Posted by Savos
Power Pool, (same) Power Pool, and a different Power Pool. Everyone takes Stamina so Health is a given, but Super Jump is now forced and doesn't even provide all around protection or resistance. Melee get those for just picking (any?) APP/PPP assuming they want or need them.
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Second, you don't have to wait until 41+ for Acrobatics.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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I already have Acrobatics and Combat Jumping. They provide an immense amount of extra survivability. Yet Stuns and Sleeps still exist and I can't do anything about them. I even slot the Steadfast -KB and +Def IOs. Everything to provide more durability. Currently working towards a build with about 36% S/L defense (which I'd expect will be nerfed at some point, but for now it is relatively cheap). Going higher will roughly triple the cost of the build and I do not wish to do that.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The Hold and KB protection in Acrobatics is there if you want it, but you do not have to take it.
Similarly,the mez and ranged attacks are in an APP if a melee character wants to take them, but they do not have to. Nothing is forced on anyone. Point of the matter is, the devs presented support ATs with a problem. Then they gave them a few tools they can use to solve that problem. Instead of USING those tools to solve the problem, some people decided that it was more logical to bitterly complain that the problem exists in the first place. If you choose not to use any of the means you have been offered to protect yourself from mez, it is not a flaw in the game. The devs are NOT required to fix your problem for you, especially when they have given you the means to fix it yourself. |
Taking those powers does nothing to solve the core problem of too long of a duration for NPC mez. If you don't die within about 5 seconds of a mez, it doesn't matter how long it is, you will probably be fine. Having durations easily 5x that or more doesn't provide difficulty, it provides "lol you thought you could press buttons now?!"
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And this is 'by design' and 'working as intended'. Furthermore, most of the players think it's a good idea.
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Originally Posted by Savos
I already have Acrobatics and Combat Jumping. They provide an immense amount of extra survivability. Yet Stuns and Sleeps still exist and I can't do anything about them.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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But there is something you can do about it. It is called eat the breakfrees you have sitting in your tray instead of letting them sit there waiting for you to die to use with that wake. Stop saying there is nothing you can do about mezzes.
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Originally Posted by Savos
I already have Acrobatics and Combat Jumping. They provide an immense amount of extra survivability. Yet Stuns and Sleeps still exist and I can't do anything about them. I even slot the Steadfast -KB and +Def IOs. Everything to provide more durability. Currently working towards a build with about 36% S/L defense (which I'd expect will be nerfed at some point, but for now it is relatively cheap). Going higher will roughly triple the cost of the build and I do not wish to do that.
Taking those powers does nothing to solve the core problem of too long of a duration for NPC mez. If you don't die within about 5 seconds of a mez, it doesn't matter how long it is, you will probably be fine. Having durations easily 5x that or more doesn't provide difficulty, it provides "lol you thought you could press buttons now?!" |
But, the reason it's come up at all, if by, "big fuss," you mean, 'raised the issue,' is that almost everything else, you can do with any AT, if you want to, but APP/PPP power selection, or careful IOing. Mez protection is the one area you can't. Wanna blast with a tank? You can. Wanna heal others with a Brute? No prob. Wanna mez with a scrapper? Sure thing. Soft cap a blaster, like a SR scrapper? Easy (maybe expensive, but...).
2/3 the ATs have some mez redress already, so it's not likely gonna be game breaking to look at mezzes again.
And, to further add why it's specifically mezzes and not something else, is that there is a frustration factor of not being able to do anything at all. It's even worse if you can't do anything at all, and are vulnerable. And if proactive defense IS your defense, then getting mezzed is akin to getting all your toggles dropped. Which was so frustrating for tanks and scraps and brutes (even as rarely as they get mezzed) that players lobbied to get that changed, successfully, and justly so.
I'm glad you leveled your corruptors and defender when it wasn't an issue, back when mezzes were rarer. Or that you played only in situations that minimized the effect. Or that you just plain got very lucky. Regardless, it is an issue. Not a huge one. I'm not planning on quitting the game, or even playing certain ATs less. Some people might, but I can't speak for them on that. But, several people have explained the issue quite eloquently, if you wanted to reread through most of the discussion.
I've played 6 defenders and 3 controllers to 50. And about 45 other supports ATs (Corrs, Defs, and Trollers). And I didn't find it an issue either for the first 3 or 4 years I played this game. It really only changed fairly recently. But, if you started playing your support ATs again,and found you were getting mezzed just the right amount for your particular tastes, I'm sure you wouldn't have to slot any theoretical IO they added. Or you wouldn't have to respec into theoretical APP mez protection powers. But I'm fairly confident that if you started playing any of the alts you mentioned again with any regularity, and realized that there is a difference now, and some form of mez protection were made available, you'd seek it out.