Bait and switch Aegis Mez protection.
By
AddamsFamily,
Posted on: 2010-11-11 18:45 in Player Questions
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There's plenty you can do about mezzes, between having DEF, using breakfrees, mezzing them first, picking certain ATs and powersets, using temps, being selective about groups you fight, and plenty more. But I don't even worry about those things most of the time because if you're on a team those things aren't going to be as much of a bother. Maybe you can't handle it solo because you're Empathy/Archery, but I'm sure someone else on the team can cover you. That's the entire concept and point of the teaming mechanics: multiple heroes working together to form a cohesive unit that can accomplish and deal with more.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
And this is 'by design' and 'working as intended'. Furthermore, most of the players think it's a good idea.
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Or if you solo exclusively and never team, why are you doing it with an Empathy/Archery Defender?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm not entirely against the possibility of a compromise.
I wouldn't have a problem with, for example, increasing the hold protection in Acrobatics from Mag 2 to Mag 3. It's already there, so increasing the amount of protection by 1 wouldn't be a big deal.
I also wouldn't have a problem with increasing the amount of mez resistance IOs grant you to an amount actually worth slotting for. Currently, the 1-2% resistance you can get out of them isn't even worth the slots you spend on it. Increasing that to 5-6% for the majority and maybe 10-15% for the exceptionally rare ones shouldn't unbalance anything, and might make things a little easier for those who choose to play support characters.
I still don't think support characters should be given passive protection from everything, but there IS room for compromise.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Still keep mixing up terms. Protection is not what I want. Some reasonable way to create resist is, hence why I attempted to slot this IO but was sorely disappointed.
Support with protection is just stupid. As is melee with guaranteed unbreakable protection.
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You don't get it do you? Melee gets higher protection due to being in MELEE range. Squishies can avoid melee range and most of the mezzes by dealing with the mezzers first. On normal difficulty this is not a problem. even at +2 or +3 this should not be a problem. If you are ******** that at +8 you can't ovetr come mezz then to bad so sad. That is not what the game is balanced around. Deal with it and move on.|
Originally Posted by Savos
Still keep mixing up terms. Protection is not what I want. Some reasonable way to create resist is, hence why I attempted to slot this IO but was sorely disappointed.
Support with protection is just stupid. As is melee with guaranteed unbreakable protection. |
Edit: Forgot to mention, it took me all of 3 seconds to find this on paragon wiki: This enhancement provides a 3.0% bonus to Psionic Resistance and a 20.0% bonus to Status Resistance (Hold, Immobilize, Stun, Sleep, Confuse, and Terrorize). These function as set bonuses and are always on, even if in a toggle that is turned off.
You should really do research and ask questions first before you ***** about slotting that 5 mil infl io.
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Support with protection is not stupid.|
Originally Posted by Savos
Support with protection is just stupid. As is melee with guaranteed unbreakable protection.
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Also, melee characters do NOT get unbreakable protection.
Making statements that are flat-out false does not help your case.
(I am referring to the 2nd sentence since your first sentence is opinion.)
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i disagree with the first statement unless i misunderstand what you're saying. My Force Field and Traps users certainly do.|
Originally Posted by Savos
Support with protection is just stupid. As is melee with guaranteed unbreakable protection.
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Melee player characters with guaranteed unbreakable protection would be rather stupid in my opinion as well. Since they don't exist in this game it is sort of irrelevant to any discussion about the game.
Which sort of reminds me of the time my SR Scrapper was in the early twenties and bumped into a large group of Yellow Ink Men near the natural store in Talos. Was held in about two seconds through Practiced Brawler. Came as a bit of a surprise. Every one of my melee types has been subjected to mezzes at some point in the mid to late game, even if it only lasted a short time, and i'm not referring to encounters with Ghost Widow, just enemy groups with lots of stuns or holds who all fire them at my character at once. i'm sure you know how that is...
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'm not entirely against the possibility of a compromise.
I wouldn't have a problem with, for example, increasing the hold protection in Acrobatics from Mag 2 to Mag 3. It's already there, so increasing the amount of protection by 1 wouldn't be a big deal. I also wouldn't have a problem with increasing the amount of mez resistance IOs grant you to an amount actually worth slotting for. Currently, the 1-2% resistance you can get out of them isn't even worth the slots you spend on it. Increasing that to 5-6% for the majority and maybe 10-15% for the exceptionally rare ones shouldn't unbalance anything, and might make things a little easier for those who choose to play support characters. I still don't think support characters should be given passive protection from everything, but there IS room for compromise. |
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Originally Posted by Savos
Still keep mixing up terms. Protection is not what I want. Some reasonable way to create resist is, hence why I attempted to slot this IO but was sorely disappointed.
Support with protection is just stupid. As is melee with guaranteed unbreakable protection. |
Read the bolded part again.
Also, melee does NOT have "guaranteed unbreakable protection". There are dozens of situations where melee characters can and will be mezzed throughout the game.
There have been a number of examples given, here's one more: Try fighting 8 or 9 Tsoo Green Ink Men at once and see if your melee character doesn't get the crap stunned out of him. And yes, you can find them in those numbers even when you're not running at x8, they spawn in huge groups in Talos Island. A support AT character with Hover can kill them off in relative safety, because they have no ranged mezzes. They have melee stuns that will stack high enough to break through mez protection after the first volley, and then they will KEEP stacking them. If your melee character doesn't have a breakfree he is dead, because you can't kill them fast enough to stop the stuns from stacking.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
You don't get it do you? Melee gets higher protection due to being in MELEE range. Squishies can avoid melee range and most of the mezzes by dealing with the mezzers first. On normal difficulty this is not a problem. even at +2 or +3 this should not be a problem. If you are ******** that at +8 you can't ovetr come mezz then to bad so sad. That is not what the game is balanced around. Deal with it and move on.
Edit: Forgot to mention, it took me all of 3 seconds to find this on paragon wiki: This enhancement provides a 3.0% bonus to Psionic Resistance and a 20.0% bonus to Status Resistance (Hold, Immobilize, Stun, Sleep, Confuse, and Terrorize). These function as set bonuses and are always on, even if in a toggle that is turned off. You should really do research and ask questions first before you ***** about slotting that 5 mil infl io. |
Sharky, you made the OP's point, I am afraid to say...
The advertised performance is only for Melee ATs, not for support at all! Support does get the "Bait and Switch" they do not give resistance to them, they get a "reduce the duration" the support AT is under effect of the Mez, by 3% (ha ha ha, so sutpid).
Frankly, I don't see the reason for all the consternation, a 3% true resistance, which would be the total for a support caste AT is insignificant, I would not waste my influence for just a 3% that could not stack with anything else, cause "there is nothing else" to stack with.
I still have an issue over any AT having to depend on any inspirations to handle ash and trash mobs, that is simply wrong.
You also make a point of melee should be ubber protected, cause they are simply melee. I do contend they are way over protected for their jobs, way over. They should be sized to handle a mob of no more than 1 boss, 2 LTs and 4 Minions, and of their level; no more than that, simply put: A single, normal sized group. If they are going to square with anything bigger than that, they should be in a group and being supported; that would be balance. To imply that their job is to handle 20+ mobs, is frankly self-serving.
You also make a claim, that support can use their range attacks to pre-empt the mobs, easy to say, much more unlikely to see it done with any consistency. I described over and over the statistics of handling an equal con group of 1 boss, 2 Lts, and 4 minions and your chances to neutralizing them, so they can not nuke you next round, as basically well below 25%. So while a player, unless amushed, may have the first chance at using an area mez (not true for the average Defenders or Blasters), the odds that area mez is going to stop "all" of the mobs are very poor, today's mobs have nearly snipe ranged status effect capable ranged attacks, so really besides you getting the first shot; you really don't have much else for protection, range is not going to help you one bit once the bullets start flying!
A poster correctly stated, that support caste ATs can spruce up their range/aoe/melee defenses. That does work well, incidentally, but the new mobs being released after I18 have accuracies boosted beyond the 45% limit (they use to-hit bonuses, so technically the devs are not breaking the rules; technically), so defense is becoming much more less reliable (also note the SR Scrapper complaints starting to sprout over this), also as unfair as it truly is, there are mob Mez attacks that auto hits, such as the overlords in FBZ.
Frankly, Sharky, the game is not as binary as you make it to be; it used to be to some extent, I give you that, but after I3 that commenced to change, and afer I13 it really changed!
I only wonder, if melee had to pop a luck before fighting a group of 6 generic Mobs of their level to survive the fight, how would you feel?
Stormy
Watch it, reading your post I see you using "resistance" where you apparently mean "protection".
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Blasters: All get some form of control, and all get access to their first two primary blasts even when mezzed. |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
I still have an issue over any AT having to depend on any inspirations to handle ash and trash mobs, that is simply wrong. |
Controllers: Control. Really. So hit the mezzer(s) first. Plus, post-32 for most sets they have a pet to assist - either the pet will be hit with the mez, or the pet will be there to help fight. (For the one set that doesn't - mind - use the non-aggroing confuse on someone... like, say, the mezzer.)
Defenders: Wide variety - self protection, self buffs, enemy debuffs, and often a good bit of control.
Dominators: See controller.
Masterminds: Ooh. Scary. Mez the MM, get smacked by the henchmen. Mez the henchmen... who cares?
Yes, carry breakfrees. But these are hardly poor, helpless characters.
Not only that, Dominators get mez protection in Domination.
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Oh Bill, I saw what you wrote, it seems you used such wide paintbrush strokes...
As a note, I use a one round as reference, and some of you may be wondering why?
If you assume, that the player always goes first, the first round is for the support AT to do a pre-emptive attack, This is the round the battle is made or lost for a support AT. Whatever mobs shakes the first round pre-emptive attack, will get their turn right after! (the new code since I16 gives mobs initiative as a standard), since I13 all mobs were given ranged attacks with status effects with near sniper range, and believe me, they will spam those attacks on the support immediately after being attacked. (Next time you fight a mob, notice the order of their attacks, they always begin with an attack with mez secondary effects or a mez right out, and then switch to a melee or ranged attack based on the mob type, then they weill go back to the mez supported attack, and rinse wash and repeat), fortunately for those support Ats with high Defense, your defense score remains intact despite being under the effects of a mez! But I can't emphasize how important is that first round pre-emptive attack!
Generic Defenders affecting themselves as a whole? and how the few buffs that they can give to themselves themselves makes a telling difference in one round, how? I know there are a few defenders that have a few of their powers that may affect them too, but these are not their premium buffs either, would love for empaths to give themselves clear mind! A Kin may use syphon or some other power, but their powers are very short ranged, and if they use their pre-emptive attack to a fulcrum shift, how is that helping them prevent the mez tzunami that follows?
Please explain, how in one round, a Generic Defender is going to neutralize the standard generic mob size of 6 (1 Boss, 2 LTs, 4 Minions) before they mez her out of action in one round?
I can almost side with you with the Blasters, they have their light (ha ha ha) damage attack and one moderate attack being a defense against the standard mob size of 6, after being mezzed. But no cigar in this one, its a best a baby pacifier when we do the math, its not so hot a protection...
Controllers can mez, given, if not ambushed, they go first. But have less than a 25% to mez the entire standard group of 6 in one round, less if mobs are higher leveled, please explain how the generic controller can use that first round to nearly achieve unconditional protection performance?
Same goes for the situation for Doms and Corruptors...
MMs are a unique beast, Mez the MM and the pets are there for her! Mez a pet, so there are 6 more, who cares! I see MMs as a kinda hybrid support and melee on this aspect.
I still do not agree that the use of inspirations to deal with standard groups is an acceptable answer to mez protection, I will agree with the use of inspirations if a Support AT takes on anything stronger than a generic mob group of her level, but that should be also true for melee...
Stormy
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Please explain how you're fighting that many enemies at once on the difficulty setting ATs are balanced around. |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Please explain, how in one round, a Generic Defender is going to neutralize the standard generic mob size of 6 (1 Boss, 2 LTs, 4 Minions) before they mez her out of action in one round? |
On the default setting, I very rarely see any mob composition other than 3 minions or 1 LT and 1-2 minions. And it is extremely rare for all of them to have a mez power. Usually, it will be one with a mez and two without, and there is almost no character in existence that cannot handle a threat like that.
Because your IOed to the gills Shield/Elec tank can solo at x8 does not mean every single character in the game should be able to.
If you increase your difficulty to where you are fighting mobs comprised of a boss, 2 LTs, and 4 minions, of course it's going to get harder. Isn't that the POINT of increasing difficulty? Or do you think it is intended to give you more rewards for the same effort?
If you're having trouble soloing your support AT, perhaps you should consider turning the difficulty down.
And I already know you're going to say: "If my melee character doesn't have to, why should my support character have to?"
Simple answer to that one: All ATs are not equal at doing all things, nor are they intended to be.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Additionally, there is no such "Generic Defender".
There are a very few specific Defender primaries that don't have much to help against mezzers. (Emp and Kin I am looking at you. Cold is also at a bit of a disadvantage.) Very few. Most have Very powerful tools of one kind or another.
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then to make this game more difficult for the scrappers yelling for higher difficulty, they should remove mez prot for melee's. good idea.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It DOES provide a shortening of the duration of effects. When you have it slotted, any status effect that hits you will be shortened by 7.5%.
10% of 12 seconds is 1.2 seconds, so 7.5% is less than that. It IS shortening the duration, but you probably aren't noticing it. It does not claim to do anything that it doesn't do, thus there is no bait and switch involved at all. If you slotted it expecting to be protected from mez effects, or have them reduced by a significant amount, the problem is that you failed to understand the durations involved, rather than a problem inherent within the IO itself. Most people DON'T slot it because they understand that it's effectiveness is minimal at best. Chalk it up to a lesson learned and don't slot it in the future. If every character in the game had reliable mez protection, a lot of the enemies that are challenging would be pushovers. And that probably isn't a good thing for the game. |
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Even if your primary can't, most secondaries can. Pretty much all of them come with their own hold or stun so you can strike first.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
Additionally, there is no such "Generic Defender".
There are a very few specific Defender primaries that don't have much to help against mezzers. (Emp and Kin I am looking at you. Cold is also at a bit of a disadvantage.) Very few. Most have Very powerful tools of one kind or another. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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make it usable on self..then ill always take it
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Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
And this is why powers like Increase Density, Thaw, and Clarity exist. I have never seen an Empath or /Pain Domination not take Clear Mind or Enforced Morale, but have seen many /Kinetics, /Thermals, and /Sonics pass on taking their Mez Resist granting powers, mostly at lower levels. Hopefully i19 might help remedy that. USE EM!
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The problem with ally buffs not being usable on yourself isn't with the power itself, it's because you can't target yourself. If you could target yourself, all those buffs probably would be usable on you.
Problem there is, if we could do that things like Empathy and Thermal would quickly get overpowered. 100% recharge boost, more regeneration than a target capped Willpower, stackable mez protection, and perma Fortitude would make an Empathy defender one of the most powerful characters in the game.
If they gave us that, expect those buffs to get the crap nerfed out of them in trade. Downside to that is an Empathy character would get a whole lot less useful to a team because their buffs aren't as potent anymore.
All those Ally Only buffs are only as powerful as they are because you can't use them on yourself.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The problem with ally buffs not being usable on yourself isn't with the power itself, it's because you can't target yourself. If you could target yourself, all those buffs probably would be usable on you.
Problem there is, if we could do that things like Empathy and Thermal would quickly get overpowered. 100% recharge boost, more regeneration than a target capped Willpower, stackable mez protection, and perma Fortitude would make an Empathy defender one of the most powerful characters in the game. If they gave us that, expect those buffs to get the crap nerfed out of them in trade. Downside to that is an Empathy character would get a whole lot less useful to a team because their buffs aren't as potent anymore. All those Ally Only buffs are only as powerful as they are because you can't use them on yourself. |
Problem is, as the game changes and your melee toons get buffed, those sets stay pretty much the same. so when you run your fully capped brute/tank/scrapper through an itf like a wheat thresher, your support gets left behind, dead most likely. The only way to avoid that is to not take ally buffs and take the fighting pool instead. Tanks lately have no idea how to hold agro, I have repeatedly come across tanks that dont know what the agro cap is. I tell tanks that if I have to fight for my life, they get no buffs. I am not a suicide buffer. want sb? keep agro. that simple. so seeing melee get the nerf bat is not that an unpleasant concept for me, many of them are not team players and need to be brought down to where the rest of us live.
edit. you might notice, there are no purple sets for empath powers. just sayin
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There aren't any for my brute's secondary either. But just like with your empath he can slot a bunch of them in his attacks. |
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
edit. you might notice, there are no purple sets for empath powers. just sayin
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If I wanted to that is. I don't bother with slotting purples personally. I enjoy the ridiculous profits I can make off of them too much.
Also, I hate tankers that agro a whole room, far over their agro cap, and then let everything run amok, and then dare to call that 'herding'. Piss poor playing is what I call it.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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So, force the melee ATs to be absolutely dependent on support to stay alive to force them into being better team players, while you skip your ally buffs because they don't do YOU any good. That makes no sense at all. |
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
Problem is, as the game changes and your melee toons get buffed, those sets stay pretty much the same. so when you run your fully capped brute/tank/scrapper through an itf like a wheat thresher, your support gets left behind, dead most likely. The only way to avoid that is to not take ally buffs and take the fighting pool instead. Tanks lately have no idea how to hold agro, I have repeatedly come across tanks that dont know what the agro cap is. I tell tanks that if I have to fight for my life, they get no buffs. I am not a suicide buffer. want sb? keep agro. that simple. so seeing melee get the nerf bat is not that an unpleasant concept for me, many of them are not team players and need to be brought down to where the rest of us live.
edit. you might notice, there are no purple sets for empath powers. just sayin |
Bad players are bad players. Making yourself into a bad player because other players are is just idiotic. And if you skip your ally buffs on a team-oriented character, that's exactly what you are doing.
And I don't see what purple sets have to do with anything at all. They don't really contribute much to survivability at all, if they existed for empathy powers they would give you more accuracy and recharge, just like the rest of them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The sad problem is that the game inter-dependency between ATs is quite broken, you are very happy with melee's essentially absolute independence, but being rather hypocritical on the other AT's forced dependency.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So, force the melee ATs to be absolutely dependent on support to stay alive to force them into being better team players, while you skip your ally buffs because they don't do YOU any good. That makes no sense at all.
Bad players are bad players. Making yourself into a bad player because other players are is just idiotic. And if you skip your ally buffs on a team-oriented character, that's exactly what you are doing. And I don't see what purple sets have to do with anything at all. They don't really contribute much to survivability at all, if they existed for empathy powers they would give you more accuracy and recharge, just like the rest of them. |
As another poster once noted how over done melee are in some respecs, lets agree that Defenders are supposed to be the nurses in the game, they have to heal rez the dead, etc. How come the melee gets the self rez and not the Defender? If the Defender is supposed to keep the melee extra, extra ubber which lately it is not needed at all, how come they get no rudimetnary passive mez protection (unconditional) so they can do their job?
The truth if any AT is made to be dependent on another, then "all" ATs should be made dependent as well, and at the same magnitude of dependence; that is true balance.
Now to side somewhat with you, I do believe the melee Ats as a whole, is what ATs need to be like. Americans are rugged independent people, so should their ATs be as well. I find Melee ATs well crafted, very well balanced to tackle anything placed in front them. I would like to see that remain, not be nurfed because other ATs are excessively abuzed and made to have a glass jaw, head, arm and leg.
What I would like to see, is the other ATs getting redefined and revamp so they can also be better balanced and capable to be heroic, super as well.
Think of this, we describe Tanks, Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers as melee, right, what do we normally call Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Dominators and Master Minds? Support, correct? Now think a bit more, if you may, think of the word support, does it not imply less than? You have an actor, and then support actors; that means you have a Star (Melee) and Support; you have a Hero and a wanna be hero.
Truthfully what happened with all could do stuff just as well, but differently based on their inherent abilities, why should a group of ATs be so under-powered as whole. I also seem to perceive that the so called challenge in the game is mainly focused at the developer forced AT deficiency (no unconditional mez protection) as opposed to real challenges for all. While melee has challenges they are few and rare when compared on how the support ATs gets it.
Stormy
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I actually burst out laughing reading this. What kind of reasoning is that?
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Americans are rugged independent people, so should their ATs be as well.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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See, here you go again calling me a hypocrite. |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
The sad problem is that the game inter-dependency between ATs is quite broken, you are very happy with melee's essentially absolute independence, but being rather hypocritical on the other AT's forced dependency.
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I have been saying from the beginning of this thread that support ATs are just fine the way they are, not because I feel they should be dependent on a melee AT, but because I have not seen anything to suggest that they actually ARE dependent on a melee AT.
If support ATs were TRULY dependent on melee ATs to survive, it would be flat out impossible to solo one. It is not. Myself, and thousands of other players solo them all the time. If they were completely dependent on melee ATs, as you assert they are, none of us would be able to do that.
Sure, some melee characters can solo on x8, but not every single one with any build. A smaller number of them can solo AVs.
On the reverse side, a number of support ATs can solo AVs as well, many of them can do it even faster than any melee AT. Yes, it requires an expensive build to do, but you don't really believe melee ATs are doing it on SOs, do you?
Additionally, some support ATs can solo Giant Monsters, due to the amount of debuffs a lot of them are packing. I have YET to see a melee character of any AT at all that can make the same verifiable claim.
Do you know WHY Generic Scrapper solos better than Generic Defender? I do, it's because Generic Defender brings more to a team on SOs than Generic Scrapper ever will, even with the most expensive build possible. You want Generic Defender to solo better? You should be campaigning to have Generic Scrapper become more useful to a team. Because it isn't fair to ask for better soloing for support ATs, while they retain the same amount of team support. If support should solo better, melee should bring more to a team.
A team comprised of Defenders, Controllers and Blasters has no need or use for a Tank or Scrapper, and in fact will make either one pretty much redundant. I speak from experience on this. I was the sole melee AT on a team with exactly that composition, and I have never felt more useless on a team before or since. The Controllers locked the spawn down, and the Defender buffed Blasters melted it before I even got close enough to attack ONCE, let alone actually kill something.
So, melee ATs get more ability to solo because the more support ATs you add to a team, the more useless melee gets.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Almost.
Edit: Oh, and then there was the time even earlier in the game when the mez protection inspirations could not be used while mezzed. You had to preemptively use them or wait for time or defeat to end the mez. i don't miss that at all.
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