Attention Warshades: You have only one choice.
From this page:
Seriously, this alpha slot was made for us. We all want more recharge, this has it in heaps. A whopping 30% that won't be diminished. Think about how many powers you have with stuns. Also, if I'm right on my math here, with this alone Stygian Circle should heal you to full off of one LT. Essence Drain and Black Dwarf Drain just got a whole lot better. |
![Mad](images/smilies/mad.gif)
Oh wait, it's Dechs and Warshades. I stand corrected. You ARE the boss of me in this case
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
From this page:
Seriously, this alpha slot was made for us. We all want more recharge, this has it in heaps. A whopping 30% that won't be diminished. |
Quoted for truth.
I'm looking at a whopping 45% recharge boost in i19 if your math is correct.
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Snixnix - Humanform Warshade
Various others.
@debtlover
Can't say I'm not excited. My Warshade's gonna be even better. Now if only the Musculature slot were a little more tailored for my PB...
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I'm running around with a near permanent 165% Recharge on my Warshade already but.... It would be nice for Hasten to be up constantly. And the Healing one would be great. And the Stun would be really handy... Damn, that one IS made for us!
Oh wait, it's Dechs and Warshades. I stand corrected. You ARE the boss of me in this case
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But let's just take a moment to look over all the choices.
There's Cardiac, the endurance/resist tree, but that doesn't provide much benefit. Thanks to Stygian Circle and the upcoming inherent fitness, I doubt any warshade will be hurting for endurance. Slotted eclipse can cap resistance with five enemies; the resistance bonus from this alpha choice isn't enough to make it four. Even the benefit to Dwarf resistance is minimal, you get almost another 5% resistance. It also enhances range, or fear/sleep/intangibility. Are there any warshades begging for that?
Next we have Nerve, which highlights accuracy and also benefits things like defense buff, fly speed, as well as hold, taunt, and confuse duration. Yeah, I'm already done talking about this.
The first alpha choice with potential to benefit is Musculature, which sports an intriguing damage boost. The other bonuses might as well be sparkle unicorn powers, but that's ok, damage is still great. Assuming you ED cap your powers, this will still give you 30% more damage enhancement, right? ... Not exactly. The damage cap is still 400%, which means 300% in damage bonus will cap you. The 95% from enhancements counts against that, so in all reality, you only need 205% damage bonus to hit the cap. One saturated mire brings you 112.5% closer to the cap, meaning you only have enough room for 92.5% more before bonuses start to get wasted. Nova form's 45% bonus and a few teammates or a second mire from dwarf will do the trick. Musculature looks very unappealing at this point.
I wouldn't care what the fourth tree was; at this point I'd take anything else for my warshade. I turn the page to see the the Spiritual Alpha Enhancements in all their glory. I was sold at recharge, but to see it coupled with stun and healing? I nearly fainted.* There's even the option to go a little lighter on the recharge and add some slow enhancement to everything we have that slows, which is everything.
I'm convinced the developers said "Let's design one of these things just for warshades. It'll help them overcome the performance gap between them and their peacebringer cousins." Ok, that last sentence went too far.
And I'm sure they didn't have any idea how nice that looked for warshades. Kheldians are below even stalkers on the priority list.
*Just kidding.**
**But not really.
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
The recharge alone is very nice. Stuns and heals is just super home-made, creamy icing on the cake.
I can't wait to Incarnate my Warshade.
Thanks for the numbers breakdown because I was teetering between the damage and the recharge choices. I wonder how many extracted essences I can get out then. And will we need a new term for perma-perma eclipse?
total kick to the gut
![Frown](images/smilies/frown.gif)
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
There's even the option to go a little lighter on the recharge and add some slow enhancement to everything we have that slows, which is everything.
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That was when I thought about things I don't normally slot for, such as secondary effects. Defense Debuff for my Rad Defender and PB, Stuns in my Mace Tank, and especially Slows in my WS. I like that my attacks have a slow effect, especially while in Nova, but it always seemed pretty minimal. Now, when two Extracted Pets and I attack an individual, the slow is definitely noticeable, but I still wanted to make it stronger. As a tri-form, however, I just couldn't use slots for slow IO's.
This Alpha slot will be mine. I will be taking less recharge and boosting the slow. Don't know how much it will boost it, as I haven't really read up on the Alpha Slot and all the numbers associated with it, but that's what I'll be doing nonetheless.
We often sit and think of you,
We often speak your name;
There is nothing left to answer,
But your photo in the frame.
-Anon.
This Alpha slot will be mine. I will be taking less recharge and boosting the slow. Don't know how much it will boost it, as I haven't really read up on the Alpha Slot and all the numbers associated with it, but that's what I'll be doing nonetheless.
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Incaraclipse?
As to the comment about devs custom tailoring them to khelds. Why else would they have +33% jump on 'em?
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Snixnix - Humanform Warshade
Various others.
@debtlover
The Rare and Very Rare boosts are not in I19 as far as anyone knows.
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Yeah, that seems pretty good for Warshades. Don't know when I'll finally get my WS to that point, but I'll try for it. I don't, Musculature sounds nice for my PB, but I don't know... Cardiac would be pretty nice, too. Plenty of healing powers and PBs like recharge as well.
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Musculature sounds nice for my PB, but I don't know... Cardiac would be pretty nice, too. Plenty of healing powers and PBs like recharge as well.
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Don't get me wrong, hitting harder would be nice, but I think I'd rather hit more often, heal more often, and heal better.
Then again, his endurance consumption is off the charts in a way that makes my Dark Armor characters laugh. Perhaps I should go Cardiac and get a minor boost to his resistance as well?
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Somewhat unfortunately for the Spiritual tree, the more recharge you have, the less effective adding recharge becomes. Along with recharge going from 'great!' to 'mediocre' if not 'pointless' when you have a saturated power chain (ie, you're constantly animation-locked and are never waiting on a power to recharge), the Spiritual tree won't be a no-brainer improvement even for warshades.
The recharge formula is RechargeTime = BaseRechargeTime / ( 100% + Buffs - Debuffs ). Since your recharge buffs are in the denominator there's an inherent 'diminishing returns' effect on stacking recharge. And since recharge isn't universally 'more is better' but rather has specific 'target numbers' to hit for certain power chains to work, I'd say there's actually a lot of research and effort involved in deciding if you should use a spiritual boost or something else. Recharge 'in between' two target numbers is largely wasted, and if you've already got an optimal power chain, adding more recharge is unlikely to benefit you much.
Given the animation times for shapeshifting and the short duration of dwarf mire, if I were a warshade player with a strong +recharge build already, I'd be strongly tempted to focus on musculature and cardiac alpha slots, changing from +dam when it's not over-capping me to +endred when I have alot of team buffing, and use them to limit how much time I waste shapeshifting, since shifting is a medium-long animation during which you cause no damage.
Alternately, I'd use the spiritual boost to shift my IO build in a fundamental manner and try to include more survivability bonuses such as +defense or +max health, rather than +rech.
Edit - this is true for any character, not just Warshades. Once you've got an optimal power chain, more recharge is only good for making your 'long timer' powers cycle a few seconds faster. This is rarely worth it compared to chasing other bonuses that are more broadly applicable then.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Since your recharge buffs are in the denominator there's an inherent 'diminishing returns' effect on stacking recharge.
... Given the animation times for shapeshifting and the short duration of dwarf mire, if I were a warshade player with a strong +recharge build already, I'd be strongly tempted to focus on musculature and cardiac alpha slots... |
Diminishing returns, at least in my book, are better than no returns.
My warshade isn't concerned with a seamless attack chain (unless you consider Nova Emanation -> Detonation, which isn't quite seamless yet). The added recharge will allow me to use the long recharge powers more often. I beg for a faster Quasar, Unchain Essence, and more time with three fluffies on my own.
I also think you're overlooking one of a warshade's weaknesses: -recharge. By going with the Spiritual branch you provide yourself with a buffer zone. Why do SR characters aim for 50% defense? To have a buffer for when the debuffs start falling on. If my Eclipse overlaps by 15 seconds instead of 10 as it is now, that just means I can get hit with a few more -recharge attacks before I have to worry about losing the protection of Eclipse.
This is a good idea for some people. I like to be able to exemplar without changing how my character functions on a fundamental level. Since the alpha slot goes away, I wouldn't put any stock in having the core of my build disappear at level 49.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I'm aware of the diminishing returns, but I've already gone over the lack of benefits the other alpha options provide. If you are already capped for damage (it's not hard to do with a 'shade), Musculature provides no benefit. The resistance bonus is likewise wasted when eclipse is taken into account, especially since it is not enough benefit to drop the required enemies from five to four. Endurance reduction is the last thing we need considering Stygian Circle. Even my high recharge build, low end reduction build is fully sustainable in dwarf, without dropping for Stygian Circle. Adding inherent Fitness to forms will only make this better.
Diminishing returns, at least in my book, are better than no returns. |
The time you spend miring, shapeshifting to dwarf, miring again, and then shapeshifting to nova both counts against the time of your mire durations, and the time your attack chain takes. A double-mire takes about 8 seconds to get into nova form and be ready to go to town with that capped damage, ignoring the time it takes to position yourself for it. You probably only get about 5-6 seconds of 'useful' double-mire time under this strategy.
And the time you spend shapeshifting, in particular, is time other offensive types are spending attacking. Other ATs' self buffs also take time, but they don't have to form-swap in between to leverage them. If you're a warshade who finds fights are mostly over by the time you're done ramping up for them, using an alpha boost that lets you save a 'step' in your setup, and going right from mire to nova form, is likely going to improve your performance substantially more than getting long-timer powers back 5 to 10 seconds faster will.
Alternatively, you might find that while you're pausing to recover with stygian circle on the spawn you just massacred, the rest of the team is racing to the next spawn and killing most of it without you. If this happens to you alot, trying an alpha boost that makes it so you have to use stygian circle less often is likely going to result in your getting more performance.
And performance aside, tailoring your build to get you into the action faster and keep you there longer is very likely to be more fun, since you spend more time attacking and seeing those happy orange numbers.
If you're the type who'd rather 'solo in the team' and go off by themselves in order to make sure you could do it your way, this might not be for you. But it's a fairly rare team who's going to appreciate that playstyle, even if many won't say anything about it. I know I tend to snicker to myself in a bit of schadenfreude when a 'lone ranger' gets KO'd. Especially if they then have to wait for the team to go 'rescue' them. (This is especially amusing to me with "FOTM" melee types - like DM/shield or fire/shield...)
My warshade isn't concerned with a seamless attack chain (unless you consider Nova Emanation -> Detonation, which isn't quite seamless yet). The added recharge will allow me to use the long recharge powers more often. I beg for a faster Quasar, Unchain Essence, and more time with three fluffies on my own. |
To figure out what you'd gain on a given power at the 'very rare' alpha power (which we can't get yet), calculate power recharge / (100% + (enhancements + global recharge) + 30%) and subtract that from your current power recharge speed.
It's hard to measure the value of recharge increases on long-timer powers, though, because said powers tend to be fairly situational. I'd say the most broadly applicable ones are tier 9 nukes, but I think if you're in the 90 second recharge range on that already, it's unlikely that getting it much lower is going to help too much. As a practical matter, I've found that lets me nuke every 3rd spawn on most teams. Having it cycle up in the middle of the 2nd spawn just means I'll save it for the 3rd one anyway.
I also think you're overlooking one of a warshade's weaknesses: -recharge. By going with the Spiritual branch you provide yourself with a buffer zone. Why do SR characters aim for 50% defense? To have a buffer for when the debuffs start falling on. If my Eclipse overlaps by 15 seconds instead of 10 as it is now, that just means I can get hit with a few more -recharge attacks before I have to worry about losing the protection of Eclipse. |
To the point, though, warshades don't have -recharge resistance. I think a really useful buffer would be prohibitively large, like for def-chars who don't have SR's debuff resists. I also would think you'd be in dwarf form if you were tanking for a team, and otherwise you shouldn't be focused on by that many enemies who use -recharge powers. If you choose to solo on high difficulty against enemies that target one of your weaknesses, it's not the build's fault if you lose
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
That said, if you do find yourself in that situation and want to use a buffer against -rech, you can always cycle in your spiritual boost slot then. One of the nice things about the alpha slot is that you can change to what's most useful to you at the time.
This is a good idea for some people. I like to be able to exemplar without changing how my character functions on a fundamental level. Since the alpha slot goes away, I wouldn't put any stock in having the core of my build disappear at level 49. |
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
That said, if you do find yourself in that situation and want to use a buffer against -rech, you can always cycle in your spiritual boost slot then. One of the nice things about the alpha slot is that you can change to what's most useful to you at the time.
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[A lot of stuff about spending time shifting forms and "ramping up"]
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Shifting forms does not take that long. If all you do is fight +0s, then yeah, maybe it's a bit prohibitive. I run most TFs on +2 so they're at least interesting.
Finally, "ramping up" only happens once. After the first spawn, I am almost always the first into the next group. I have my momentum, I don't want to lose it. For more insight into how I play, I encourage you to read The MFing Warshade guide linked in my signature.
Alternatively, you might find that while you're pausing to recover with stygian circle on the spawn you just massacred, the rest of the team is racing to the next spawn and killing most of it without you. If this happens to you alot, trying an alpha boost that makes it so you have to use stygian circle less often is likely going to result in your getting more performance.
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Don't forget that Eclipse can refill the endurance bar if it is lacking. Usually, it's not.
If you're the type who'd rather 'solo in the team' and go off by themselves in order to make sure you could do it your way, this might not be for you. But it's a fairly rare team who's going to appreciate that playstyle, even if many won't say anything about it. I know I tend to snicker to myself in a bit of schadenfreude when a 'lone ranger' gets KO'd. Especially if they then have to wait for the team to go 'rescue' them. (This is especially amusing to me with "FOTM" melee types - like DM/shield or fire/shield...)
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"If you think you can handle it, you're free to go for it."
"If you thought you could handle it, but couldn't, you're expected to get back up or hosp out."
I have quite a few regular friends who run TFs with me. None of which have problems with Lone Rangers. I tend to do a bit of this myself. More often than not, the eight people on my team are split in three or four directions.
Depending on your existing build (which I don't know, but considering you're talking about having 3 fluffies, I assume you have significant global recharge already), you're probably looking at an improvement of 1 to 1.5 seconds of recharge time per 60 seconds base recharge on those powers. So guesstimating, you should get 4-5 seconds of extra time with your three fluffies, and have quasar back 8-10 seconds sooner.
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Remember, even a single mire in nova form cuts you down to about 40% more room for damage bonus. With two offensive teammates, you're done right there.
It's hard to measure the value of recharge increases on long-timer powers, though, because said powers tend to be fairly situational.
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In practice though, that's a harsh tradeoff and nobody I know personally makes it. Especially since you can largely counter cascade failure when it happens via offense (kill the units that are debuffing you), and/or luck inspirations (after a few seconds of not being hit the stacked debuffs will start to fall off you).
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To the point, though, warshades don't have -recharge resistance. I think a really useful buffer would be prohibitively large, like for def-chars who don't have SR's debuff resists. I also would think you'd be in dwarf form if you were tanking for a team, and otherwise you shouldn't be focused on by that many enemies who use -recharge powers.
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I don't know about you, but I don't always have a tank on the team. When I don't, that doesn't mean I shift into dwarf and actually tank. Tanks are not necessary in this game; aggro is shared on the best teams.
Further, I'm not really talking about getting recharge floored by a mass of enemies with the debuffs. If that happens, just about anybody is screwed and munches on purple insps until the things fall off. I'm more talking about getting hit with one or two (5th Column Marskmen come to mind, as well as psi cones from Arachnos). Not enough to cripple you, but enough to cause a lapse in Eclipse and Mire. A little buffer here would be nice. I speak from experience knowing that little buffs like AM or SB seem to make all the difference in the world.
That depends heavily on the character's personal situation, but most peoples' builds are going to 'disappear' if they exemplar much anyway... and really, not much that you'd exemplar for is particularly hard, only time-consuming. I used to be diligent about using IOs I could exemplar into the mid-30s with in my builds, and so forth, until I realized that I was levelling up various characters through the exact same taskforces who didn't even have all their enhancements slotted, and not having any trouble.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Luckily, no, the alpha slot lets us change what's in it on the fly between any of the boosts we have crafted. There's a five-minute cooldown after you change it before you can change it again, but you never lose any of your boosts, you can even 'downgrade' to a lower tier boost in the same 'tree' if you want to for some reason. There's no need to talk to a contact unless it's been changed from when I tried it.
As for the rest, it's play-style dependent, which is sort of my overall point in a nutshell. What works for you (or me) may not work as well for someone else, and it's especially important to remember that for every great player there are many average ones who are solid contributors and great teammates, but are still playing at a less extreme level than high-power characters in the hands of expert players are able to. Alot of players come to these forums for advice on builds and strategies and many proceed to follow them without question or even significant understanding of the knowledge and reasoning behind the advice. Seeing a post from a warshade guide-writer telling them that Spiritual is the only choice (regardless of build) will make them go slot Spiritual boosts, then assume they're doing something wrong and it's their fault if it doesn't help them much, when another boost might suit their playstyle or their specific build needs better.
Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree about personal preferences like IO build exemplar planning and warburg being fun
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
As for the rest, it's play-style dependent, which is sort of my overall point in a nutshell. What works for you (or me) may not work as well for someone else
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Don't worry, all this information is getting compiled into the guide. I'm in the process of writing a section on how to build your own death machine on any budget.
I'm still going to recommend more recharge from the Alpha, but I won't be so negative about the others.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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To YOU I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.
Photons have mass!? I didn't even know they were Catholic...
You know what, I apologize for carrying this bit of an argument out so long. You're right, we're down to playstyle differences and this is highly subject to opinion at this point. I came across a bit too strong with the initial post.
Don't worry, all this information is getting compiled into the guide. I'm in the process of writing a section on how to build your own death machine on any budget. I'm still going to recommend more recharge from the Alpha, but I won't be so negative about the others. |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
...in CoH racing to 50 is like trying to race to the end of your vacation. -Arcanaville
Debt barely slows down levelling these days. It's just a little bar that measures how much Awesome you've generated recently. (If you're not getting debt, you're just not trying to generate Awesome hard enough.) -Kelenar
From this page:
For all powers: Increases Recharge Rate by 45%, Stun Duration and Healing by 33%.
Two-thirds of these bonuses ignore the effects of enhancement diminishing returns.
This power also applies a level shift.
Think about how many powers you have with stuns.
Also, if I'm right on my math here, with this alone Stygian Circle should heal you to full off of one LT. Essence Drain and Black Dwarf Drain just got a whole lot better.
Editing in my thought process from a few posts below:
Next we have Nerve, which highlights accuracy and also benefits things like defense buff, fly speed, as well as hold, taunt, and confuse duration. Yeah, I'm already done talking about this.
The first alpha choice with potential to benefit is Musculature, which sports an intriguing damage boost. The other bonuses might as well be sparkle unicorn powers, but that's ok, damage is still great. Assuming you ED cap your powers, this will still give you 30% more damage enhancement, right? ... Not exactly. The damage cap is still 400%, which means 300% in damage bonus will cap you. The 95% from enhancements counts against that, so in all reality, you only need 205% damage bonus to hit the cap. One saturated mire brings you 112.5% closer to the cap, meaning you only have enough room for 92.5% more before bonuses start to get wasted. Nova form's 45% bonus and a few teammates or a second mire from dwarf will do the trick. Musculature looks very unappealing at this point.
I wouldn't care what the fourth tree was; at this point I'd take anything else for my warshade. I turn the page to see the the Spiritual Alpha Enhancements in all their glory. I was sold at recharge, but to see it coupled with stun and healing? I nearly fainted.* There's even the option to go a little lighter on the recharge and add some slow enhancement to everything we have that slows, which is everything.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.