Incarnates - Alpha Slot


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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The way it worked in GR Beta was satisfactory. Those of us who wanted to solo our way into Incarnates had Shards to look at, and those will drop from ANY level 50+ enemy for a character who's unlocked the slot. Those who wanted a faster run of it could instead do TFs and get a guaranteed component, though which component you got depended on which task you did, as each dropped a different one.

If the Alpha slot is like it was in Beta (pun not intended), then I like how that worked. You had to work your way up, true, but an important component in each new boost was one of the old boosts, so you were never really starting from scratch when you were upgrading. And because these shards weren't tradable, the thing felt a lot like actual levelling, which in turn felt like a level cap raise, which in turn again felt like a good thing. Cheeky, in fact - raising the level cap without actually raising the level cap.

I hope this doesn't turn into some kind of elitist "You are not cool enough to have this!" kind of thing. With Shards being untradable (they ought to) and with Shards dropping from solo play (let's hope that doesn't change), the system certainly ran in precisely that direction. It's just... Gonna' take me a while to figure out which boost I want for what character, provided it doesn't take a year each.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
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My 50's all eagerly await. My namesake shall be my first!


 

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Would going Spiritual for my alpha boost have an effect on Vet Powers or something like Domination? Are does the recharge reduction only count towards powers I can slot?


 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Points you seem to have missed;
1) Parts of the Incarnate slots ignore ED
2) The boost they provide are across the board. So, with essentially up to 2 SOs worth of End red in EVERY power...you may well never have to worry about endurance again. That in itself is pretty powerful.
3) They have stated that the new TFs and further incarnate content are geared specifically towards Incarnates. You want something more difficult? Your likely gonna get it.
The issue I have here is, is the difference going to be great enough to actually balance content around. Yes, the incarnate abilities add one or two free SOs to every power but I don't think a SO'd Incarnate is going to be more powerful than a IO'd non-Incarnate. I think he level shift is probably the largest difference but even there you'd need to be fighting enemies that are +3 or higher to the non-Incarnate to really notice the difference.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic about the new system (more toys to play with) but I'm skeptical about the claim that the new TFs will be extremely difficult without it. The variation in team strength in the current game is extreme enough that I can't see it increasing out power enough beyond what is currently possible to make it practical to balance content around having the Alpha slot.


 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Points you seem to have missed;
1) Parts of the Incarnate slots ignore ED
2) The boost they provide are across the board. So, with essentially up to 2 SOs worth of End red in EVERY power...you may well never have to worry about endurance again. That in itself is pretty powerful.
3) They have stated that the new TFs and further incarnate content are geared specifically towards Incarnates. You want something more difficult? Your likely gonna get it.
I really didn't miss any of that, Techbot.

My point is that it's already possible to make an extremely powerful character in this game, in every AT, without a ton of difficulty. I personally have no head for math, farming bores me to death, and I don't min/max very well. That being said, most of my characters feel and play very powerful, are perfectly able to solo above the default difficulty setting, and enjoy team play with competent teams without excessive difficulty. Many of them are close to softcapped when their build plays out, most of them have a ton of recharge, and all of them do competent damage.

And that is within ED.

My point is that I don't see it being such a gamebreaking boost that they're going to be able to build content specifically around it. It's a moderate boost, and we're allowed to pick and choose between which boosts we want. How do you build content around "maybe having x% more recharge, maybe having x more magnitude holds, maybe having x% more damage" in a way that doesn't penalize people who choose different powers? And how could you possibly tune content in such a specific demographic?

The level boost is something I hadn't seen and I do see how that could indeed let them build content that would only be completable with Incarnates, simply because you wouldn't be able to hit things that are enough levels above you. But in the end, that's just raising the level cap without giving us more xp to earn, and it seems like the system wants to be more than that.

I just don't see any content currently in the game that NEEDS us to be more powerful for it, and I have a hard time seeing how they're going to tune content that DOES need us to be more powerful, but only in a very specific window, see?

And no, I'm not complaining. I think the game is fine as is, I have no need for everything to be SUPER NINTENDO HARD. This is not some leet min/maxer complaining the game is too easy. This is me being honestly curious what the need for the power levels is, and what they're going to actually accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
The issue I have here is, is the difference going to be great enough to actually balance content around. Yes, the incarnate abilities add one or two free SOs to every power but I don't think a SO'd Incarnate is going to be more powerful than a IO'd non-Incarnate. I think he level shift is probably the largest difference but even there you'd need to be fighting enemies that are +3 or higher to the non-Incarnate to really notice the difference.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ecstatic about the new system (more toys to play with) but I'm skeptical about the claim that the new TFs will be extremely difficult without it. The variation in team strength in the current game is extreme enough that I can't see it increasing out power enough beyond what is currently possible to make it practical to balance content around having the Alpha slot.
Basically this, yes!

It seems to me like the Incarnate system will be most beneficial to people who don't use the invention system already, but will those people really want to use the Incarnate system when it uses inventions? I guess we'll see!


 

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This is just one slot, the others are going to do different things--an incarnate attack, the pet based Lore incarnate ability and other things we don't even know about.

Then there's the level shift on top of it.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, if 10% of the whole system is a moderate boost. What's 20%? 30%? 50%?


 

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Originally Posted by BenRGamer View Post
This is just one slot, the others are going to do different things--an incarnate attack, the pet based Lore incarnate ability and other things we don't even know about.

Then there's the level shift on top of it.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, if 10% of the whole system is a moderate boost. What's 20%? 30%? 50%?
Sure, by the time we get all ten Incarnate slots I figure it will be a noticeable difference I'm just credulous about the claim that the new TFs are balanced around having the first slot.


 

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
I guess this is the thing I'm least excited for in i19 and beyond. I just don't get it. We can already IO our toons out to godly proportions, and now with the new Alignment Merit system, it's really not difficult to do... and most of the game isn't very difficult to begin with. I've yet to run into anything in this game that I can't complete, most of it in a duo, and TFs with a competent team - not even an expert team, just a competent one. I just don't get the point of making our characters godly powerful... in order to do what? And are the upcoming TFs really going to be of a carefully balanced difficulty where the extra regen/damage boost is going to be the make or break point? I think it's a lot more likely that they'll be more difficult and any good team will be able to do them fine, because I can't see a way to predicate the difficulty on a boost like that - especially when we're choosing which boost we want. Are controllers who don't take the mez boost going to be unable to complete them?

I mean, yay powers, everyone loves their toon to be awesome, but it seems like it's just there to BE powerful.
eh, its "endgame", some people absolutely lose their pants about that, personally not a huge fan of it, but just like pvp and bases and hardcore badging, i can understand people having fun in different ways, so more fun for more is great. will admit that among the lore posts, it seems like they did the best thing to make me happy and making it very linked to story, so i will feel like im doing something, rather than just getting a weird boost, ill know when i know, until then, i dunno.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Sure, by the time we get all ten Incarnate slots I figure it will be a noticeable difference I'm just credulous about the claim that the new TFs are balanced around having the first slot.
It probably just means it's going to be designed for people at lvl 51 rather than 50 at this point.

Noticeable difference in difficulty, but still doable.


 

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How many times must the developers reconfirm that they are adding content rebalanced with Incarnate powers in mind IN I19 before people start wondering whether there will be content rebalanced with incarnate powers in mind?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
How many times must the developers reconfirm that they are adding content rebalanced with Incarnate powers in mind IN I19 before people start wondering whether there will be content rebalanced with incarnate powers in mind?
We're not questioning the existence of the content, we're questioning the devs claim that the content is balanced around having the incarnate slot. Supposedly it's going to be extremely difficult to do without the Alpha slot and frankly I don't believe it (although if that is the case I will happily eat my words). I just don't see the small bonuses and the level shift making enough of a difference to allow content to be balanced such that it is completable by a decent team that has the Alpha boosts but not by the same team without the boosts.


 

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*edited for accuracy, or a complete lack thereof*


That said, while the ED limitations being imposed are kind of a bummer to me, I see why they did it. Is anyone out there able to pull some math-fu and tell us how the top tier Alpha Enhancment would effect powers with 3-SOs worth of enhancement in them already?

So just for example how much damage would Scrapper Smite do with 3 SOs plus the Musculature top tier damage enhancement? How much defense would Ninja Reflexes provide with 3 SOs for defense and the top tier defense one? You have to add in the standard enhanced values then the brute force enhancement from the alpha slot and then add in the little bit extra that get diminished. I don't want to attempt that.

This also kind of kills the argument that inherent Stamina gives you 3 extra powers you can't slot. This Alpha Slot update allows players to save a TON of slots if they wanted to use it like that.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
We're not questioning the existence of the content, we're questioning the devs claim that the content is balanced around having the incarnate slot. Supposedly it's going to be extremely difficult to do without the Alpha slot and frankly I don't believe it (although if that is the case I will happily eat my words). I just don't see the small bonuses and the level shift making enough of a difference to allow content to be balanced such that it is completable by a decent team that has the Alpha boosts but not by the same team without the boosts.
The thing is, such negativity will change nothing at this point. The update will be out next Tuesday (we hope), and it's been tested already. Why not hold off and test your theory? As of right now, the negativity exists for its own sake and can't be integrated or reviewed fully by the developers.

----

And Samual?

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How many times must the developers reconfirm that they are adding content rebalanced with Incarnate powers in mind IN I19 before people start wondering whether there will be content rebalanced with incarnate powers in mind?

At least once more.


 

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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules View Post
I don't think it's gonna be something where you need the power of an incarnate to complete it. It'll certainly be more difficult than normal content, but that's not why you need to be an incarnate to do it. It's just a programmed-in limitation to your ability to participate in said content. You and everyone on your team needs to be an incarnate to start the TF. It's not like any given team couldn't complete this stuff, even if it is harder than, say, an ITF.
WW stated at NYCC that the incarnate slot isn't needed to participate in the 2 new TFs coming, she just said it was really really helpful to have.


 

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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios View Post
WW stated at NYCC that the incarnate slot isn't needed to participate in the 2 new TFs coming, she just said it was really really helpful to have.
Wow, color me wrong... or something haha. That's actually pretty weird. Not me being wrong, that thing about the Incarnate stuff. I'm wrong on a fairly regular basis. Here's a question! Does anyone think these enhancements affect inherent powers that are capable of being enhanced? For example, will the spiritual tree be able to boost the recharge rate of Domination? If these boosts work on the same mechanic as set bonuses, wouldn't that mean they'd have to affect those powers unless they were specifically flagged not to?


 

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I wouldn't be surprised if some of these new TFs have level 55 AVs/GMs which is why they stress that the Alpha Slot is important. I'm GUESSING that the level shift is the importance of the alpha slot that they are referring to. Fighting a 55 at 50 would probably be significantly more difficult than fighting a 54.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules View Post
Wow, color me wrong... or something haha. That's actually pretty weird. Not me being wrong, that thing about the Incarnate stuff.
War Witch did also say that she was totally slaughtered on the TFs when she was trying to do them as a non-Incarnate - but that might just be because she's a Blaster


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Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay View Post
At least once more.
City of Heroes NYCC 2010 - part 2/4

1:22 - 1:51
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Originally Posted by War Witch
Uhh, and by the way, if you're going to do the Apex Task Force, we highly recommend, because this is an Incarnate task force, we highly recommend that you have your Alpha Slot *slotted*. Ah, if you don't, you can still participate in it, but I guarantee you you will be spending a lot of time face down in the dirt. Maybe it's just me, maybe cause I forgot to slot it... I die a lot, but it was really really challenging, so if you guys think you can just, you known, breeze through these task forces, uhh, think again.
I apologize to War Witch for being brutally exact in the quoting, but I felt it would carry more veracity.


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I'm really excited for some truly challenging content and not challenging in the sense that you need to do X,Y,Z before the enemy is vulnerable. I want stuff that turns into a truly epic knockdown, drag out, battle royale!


 

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Originally Posted by Miuramir View Post
City of Heroes NYCC 2010 - part 2/4

1:22 - 1:51


I apologize to War Witch for being brutally exact in the quoting, but I felt it would carry more veracity.
Wait a minute. All that says is that she didn't have her alpha slot slotted. That means she's an incarnate, right? A lazy one, sure. But she's unlocked the ability to be an incarnate. That still doesn't mean non-incarnate players who have not unlocked the ability at all will be able to participate in the new TFs, right?


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Witch
Uhh, and by the way, if you're going to do the Apex Task Force, we highly recommend, because this is an Incarnate task force, we highly recommend that you have your Alpha Slot *slotted*. Ah, if you don't, you can still participate in it, but I guarantee you you will be spending a lot of time face down in the dirt. Maybe it's just me, maybe cause I forgot to slot it... I die a lot, but it was really really challenging, so if you guys think you can just, you known, breeze through these task forces, uhh, think again.
This really makes me want to run it without the alpha slot first.


 

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Unlocking the Incarnate system is done via a normal arc from Mender Ramiel - so it's not really going to be any harder than getting access to Cimerora - so if the rule is you cna only do the new TFs if you've unlocked your first Incarnate slot, then that's not going to be any different from the way the ITF is accessed.


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What bothers me is if your unwilling or unable to run a few of the more difficult TF's is that you are going to need a grinder character to grind shard.

Trying to grind out purples with anything less than an aoe monster that can fast solo +1 x 8 is painful at its best.


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I look at this 1st Incarnate level as the equivalent of defeating rats in a n00b zone. The Devs are getting our feet wet for the challenges ahead. If we cannot handle the task forces that many of us have already done ad infinitum in order to collect the components we need, how do we break out of that ennui?

I imagine that we are going to be faced with greater and greater challenges. As we near Incarnate Level 10, I expect that we can expect challenges rivaling those in ancient mythology. I would not be surprised if the Devs set up raids requiring several dozen player characters vs. a single Divinity-level NPC and His/Her Level 60 minions!



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Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
What bothers me is if your unwilling or unable to run a few of the more difficult TF's is that you are going to need a grinder character to grind shard.

Trying to grind out purples with anything less than an aoe monster that can fast solo +1 x 8 is painful at its best.
Shards drop way more than purples


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