Most would become supervillains if given superpowers, study says.


2short2care

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
They don't have to be taught how to be selfish. They have to be taught how to share thier toys, not grab the toys out of other kid's hands and to not smack someone who takes thier toys away.
Selfish is what they do if no adults show them how to behave.
They also poo their pants.

Wait, so does that mean I'm "naturally inclined" to pooing my pants?


Ha HA! Loophole!! Suck it Mr. Toilet!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowman View Post
They also poo their pants.

Wait, so does that mean I'm "naturally inclined" to pooing my pants?


Ha HA! Loophole!! Suck it Mr. Toilet!
Past a certain age, they start to discover that poopy pants=uncomfortable. Left alone long enough they would figure something out.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
Past a certain age, they start to discover that poopy pants=uncomfortable. Left alone long enough they would figure something out.
Yeah, they'd take off their pants.

They do that a bunch too.

Not that I can blame them. The breeze wafting 'bout my nethers is particularly invigorating.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowman View Post
They also poo their pants.

Wait, so does that mean I'm "naturally inclined" to pooing my pants?


Ha HA! Loophole!! Suck it Mr. Toilet!
Pants are a fascist oppressor! Down with pants!

In all serious, well as much as one can be serious with poop, pooping one's pants is not natural, because wearing pants is not natural. Clothing is a construct made first for the protection they give us and now for the societal implications of nudity. One can hardly say whether or not pooping pants is something humans would naturally do, because, well pants wearing to begin with isn't natural (past the point where it would provide some environmental defense)!

Once again...POOP!


"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan View Post
pooping one's pants is not natural
You just gotta kill my buzz, don't cha.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowman View Post
Yeah, they'd take off their pants.

They do that a bunch too.

Not that I can blame them. The breeze wafting 'bout my nethers is particularly invigorating.
See! They come to a natural and logical solution to problems posed to them, eventually.

Also: I do not wish to borrow your chair, as it sounds like it may have had considerable contact with thine nethers.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The same way they have to learn to walk, which is the default travel method of humans - or learn to talk, which is the default communication method of humans.
If we want to draw a parallel between language and morality, consider this. Speech is a natural method of communication, but what is the default manner of speech? Is it natural to speak Japanese? Sure, if you live in Japan. A group of humans that develop in isolation will develop their own means of communication i.e. feral children. It is natural to try to communicate however, but a single method of communication is not.

Likewise, there may be a general moral sense as their is a general means and desire for communication. This would suffice to explain and our sense of empathy and why there are some taboos that are nearly universal. However, that means there is still a large part of morality that is learned and relative.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork View Post
Also: I do not wish to borrow your chair, as it sounds like it may have had considerable contact with thine nethers.
Yeah, I know.

Nobody seems to like my nethers.


 

Posted

Evil is misunderstood.




OH that would be a great name for a Dominator! Miss. Understood!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowman View Post
Yeah, I know.

Nobody seems to like my nethers.
I like them . . . as far away as possible.

They'd be perfect hanging out around G_G's home.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketch View Post
If we want to draw a parallel between language and morality, consider this. Speech is a natural method of communication, but what is the default manner of speech? Is it natural to speak Japanese? Sure, if you live in Japan. A group of humans that develop in isolation will develop their own means of communication i.e. feral children. It is natural to try to communicate however, but a single method of communication is not.

Likewise, there may be a general moral sense as their is a general means and desire for communication. This would suffice to explain and our sense of empathy and why there are some taboos that are nearly universal. However, that means there is still a large part of morality that is learned and relative.
It's more basic than this. If a human isn't raised in the presence of language, the ability never occurs "naturally" - feral humans don't HAVE language. It's natural for ANY animal with vocal cords to VOCALIZE in order to express fundamental states or desires - "*moan* hungry!", "*rahrr!* angry!", "*eeee!* afraid!" That's it.

Morality is just as "natural"... i.e. it ISN'T.

Saying otherwise is naively optimistic, and flat wrong. Makes for a comforting world view, and anyone who wants to see humanity that way is welcome to do so. I prefer the realism of knowing that morality is NOT my natural state, taking comfort in knowing I was raised that way, and seeing my own lapses of morality as opportunities to better myself.


Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas

Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker View Post
Morality is just as "natural"... i.e. it ISN'T.

Saying otherwise is naively optimistic, and flat wrong. Makes for a comforting world view, and anyone who wants to see humanity that way is welcome to do so. I prefer the realism of knowing that morality is NOT my natural state, taking comfort in knowing I was raised that way, and seeing my own lapses of morality as opportunities to better myself.

This... so this.

What makes humanity great, is we are capable of chosing morality. We chose to act this way, because we can, not because we have to. Only a few animals express this ability to chose right from wrong. We have developed it to such a high degree that we take it for granted, as a givin. But it isn't.

And that, is what makes Humanity amazing.

Like the Doctor, sometimes I just want to give humanity a big hug.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
There's a first time for everything
This debating without having to provide any facts or evidence is fun! I love the internet!


 

Posted

These retards needed a study to come to this conclusion? I need to find out where these guys find the funding for common sense studies, I'm looking to start one that will prove that cats are bad for folks with cat allergies.


"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker View Post
It's more basic than this. If a human isn't raised in the presence of language, the ability never occurs "naturally" - feral humans don't HAVE language. It's natural for ANY animal with vocal cords to VOCALIZE in order to express fundamental states or desires - "*moan* hungry!", "*rahrr!* angry!", "*eeee!* afraid!" That's it.
Note that I did not indicate feral children developing speech. They do, however, have means to communicate with grunts, groans, gestures. Other species also communicate through vocalizations. So while specifically stating speech is unnatural, we can make the argument that communication, on the other hand, is natural.

Quote:
Morality is just as "natural"... i.e. it ISN'T.

Saying otherwise is naively optimistic, and flat wrong. Makes for a comforting world view, and anyone who wants to see humanity that way is welcome to do so. I prefer the realism of knowing that morality is NOT my natural state, taking comfort in knowing I was raised that way, and seeing my own lapses of morality as opportunities to better myself.
One could say that it is naive to think any thought does not derive from a biological source, the brain. Of the myriad thoughts that wander through our brains each day, how many of them reflect a biological grounding? Recall the old saying "men think about sex even 7 seconds". Even though it's false, it does reflect that we think sexual thoughts everyday. Even thoughts that are not blatantly sexual often derive from a primitive source and a desire to be attractive to the other sex... seeking shelter, nourishment, and safety are all natural underlying impulses. It has been argued that humans have self-selected many types of behaviors that would become the foundations of morality. Empathy and co-operation are both things we value, but also things that increased our likelihood of survival. When the survival of the self was tied with the survival of the group these took precedence over more basic desires.

There is room in this philosophy to recognize instinctive thoughts, learned behaviors, and cultural influences. Going back to our language example, the basic vocalizations of a feral child are far from being or even becoming a language. Yet language exists, here in our natural world based on those fundamental sounds that we all produced, unnatural as it may be. A simple need gives way to a complex system.

Of course, recognizing the source of some thoughts does not absolve one from the responsibility to act or not act on them. An impulse is not a full moral decree. It is only (and in some matters, not even) a part of it, the remainder is learned. Knowing that my sexual thoughts are natural does not excuse me to attack women. When I reach a moral judgment I consider my own desires, the desires of others, my perceived moral obligations to my community and the world. Recognizing the natural instinct to procreate doesn't make me an immoral monster, but it does let me come to terms with a desire that has been denounced by religious institutions.

Ultimately, I am still the agent of choice in my moral judgments. I lack the pomp, however, to say that they are not influenced by biology, society, and my own quirks.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketch View Post
I lack the pomp
How are you on circumstance?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketch View Post
Yet language exists, here in our natural world based on those fundamental sounds that we all produced, unnatural as it may be. A simple need gives way to a complex system.
Yes, after... how many thousands of years? How long did it take for humanity to develop any true language? Any bets on whether or not our basic concepts of morality took essentially the same time to develop? Probably a fair guess.

My points being that there is a considerable difference between communication and language, and morality is neither a mystically nor biologically ingrained human trait, any more than language is. Believing so is a failure to recognize the power of the choices we make. Language and morality are as much human inventions as nuclear reactors are.


Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas

Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker View Post
Yes, after... how many thousands of years? How long did it take for humanity to develop any true language? Any bets on whether or not our basic concepts of morality took essentially the same time to develop? Probably a fair guess.
Neither concept was there a priori, however, they both developed for the survival of the species.

Quote:
My points being that there is a considerable difference between communication and language, and morality is neither a mystically nor biologically ingrained human trait, any more than language is. Believing so is a failure to recognize the power of the choices we make. Language and morality are as much human inventions as nuclear reactors are.
How then do you explain Broca's area, Wernicke's area, or the Sylvian Fissure; and the fact that damage to those areas causes severe limitations in developing and producing speech? Is speech contained in them? No, not at all. However, they are a product of an evolution that favored communication.

Could are moral judgments not be affected by such a similar biological underpinning? Yes.

Bear in mind that I am not suggesting that morality pops from the ether of evolution, but is simply influenced by biology to a degree. This is the difference between thinking that all my moral judgments occur internally in a vacuum and recognizing that they are shaped by many factors. But perhaps, I'm detecting a bit of determinism v. free will arising here, as you seem to want the value of human choice.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Yes there is - the default setting for humans is to be nice to each other.
world peace will not come by hugging people


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketch View Post
How then do you explain Broca's area, Wernicke's area, or the Sylvian Fissure; and the fact that damage to those areas causes severe limitations in developing and producing speech? Is speech contained in them? No, not at all. However, they are a product of an evolution that favored communication.
Links added for the inquisitive. And your last sentence there is essentially key here: "an evolution that favored communication." Yes, biologically we have developed in a manner that supports communication, something I wasn't particularly clear on previously. Perhaps I should have stated that vocalization with intent to communicate is very different from the complex nuances necessary for language.
Quote:
Could our moral judgments not be affected by such a similar biological underpinning? Yes.
And again, such a biological feature would HAVE to exist in order to support the vast social groups that humans develop. The good of group must, to some degree, take precedence over the good of self for this to happen.
Quote:
Bear in mind that I am not suggesting that morality pops from the ether of evolution, but is simply influenced by biology to a degree. This is the difference between thinking that all my moral judgments occur internally in a vacuum and recognizing that they are shaped by many factors. But perhaps, I'm detecting a bit of determinism v. free will arising here, as you seem to want the value of human choice.
Which was my perhaps poorly stated point, earlier. The biological support structures for language and morality are as much a part of humans as the biological support for bipedal locomotion. Likewise, in the absence of a social structure that trains us in the use of these faculties, they atrophy to the point that they can, apparently, NEVER be learned. Simply put, these behaviors, in and of themselves, are not "natural", in the sense that they are not as instinctive as eating and mating. They have to be learned.

Morality, in regard to the "group over self" concept, is almost certainly MUCH more learned, based upon the social structure in which it develops. Certainly, it could commonly be construed as "moral" to do things which promote the survival of one's group. Does this make genocide a "moral' decision? Choosing to destroy or intensely marginalize another social group in favor of one's own? Most of us, I think, would answer "No." I'm not going to go into the lengthy discussion of the kind of social development that leads to such things, or the psychological principles that support them.


Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas

Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Drugs are bad -
Mmm-Kay?


"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter

29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
I see you're starting to grasp the basics of being a superhero
Ah. So then my plan to abduct all corporate and government criminals and abusers of power and put them on a remote island somewhere to devour one another meets with your approval then.

*nod Nod*


"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter

29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform

 

Posted

Nature vs nurture arguments are kind of futile, since it's impractical to gather concrete empirical evidence for either side without a time machine and crimes against humanity. Suffice it to say that what is "natural" for humans encompasses a great deal of learned behavior - we are social creatures, and our socialization is part of our nature. The line between learned and instinctive is kind of fuzzy and ultimately irrelevant. We are what we are.

Anyhow...

Do you know why democracy originated in Greece, and not, say, some other ancient civilization?

It's because of weapons technology. The premier weapon system of the time was the armored hoplite, wielding a spear and shield, marching in a phalanx. Aside from it's superiority on the battlefield, the thing that set it apart was that it was a very "middle class" technology. The average citizen could afford it, and use it effectively. Yes, the rich neighbor could afford a horse, but without stirrups, cavalry were of limited use. The professional soldier could train all his life, but only become marginally more effective than the farmer who practices in the off season after he got the harvest in; diminishing returns had a big impact.

Parity of power led to parity of political influence. You had to respect your neighbor, and he had to respect you, because you were equally powerful on the battlefield - and the tactics required encouraged strong social cohesion if you wanted to protect your community.

(Slaves and others disenfranchised by the Greeks were in the self perpetuating trap of not being effective in a fight - they didn't have armor.)

In the dark ages, armored knights on horseback dominated. Kinship ties were the primary social bond, so infantry were (mostly) undisciplined and ineffective against them. Stirrups gave cavalry striking power and made their mobility useful, so they ruled the battlefield. Equipping and sustaining a knight was expensive, so they were a small subset of society, and this warrior class came to dominate politically. Feudalism both enabled their existence and was enforced by them.

Then, wouldn't you know it, a new weapon technology leveled the playing field again. Muskets meant that a cheaply equipped farm boy could match the most well equipped soldier sponsored by the state. It didn't take long for a democratic approach to be tried in the new paradigm. All men are created equal - as long as they're bearing arms.

Now, what do you think would really happen if a subset of humanity gained "superpowers" that allowed them to militarily outclass everyone else? Yes, some would try to be "heroes", some would be "villains", with the norm somewhere in between. However, no matter how virtuous they might be, they would tend to gain more and more political power until they became a new ruling class.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
But it would help
Appropriate


"Ben is short for Frank."
-Baffling Beer-Man, The Tenacious 3: The Movie

[IMG]http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa10/BafflingBeerman/teamjackface1.jpg[/IMG]