Ok, I see your point greystar. You think its a waste of time.
I can sort of agree with that.
However, I see it like this:
You create character A. You slot out Character A with everything your little heart desires. You then slot out Character A's 2nd build with everything your little heart desires. Character A then does a TF. What is the inf you generate from that TF going to be spent on? Another character?
Great! But the same applies - and eventually, you will run out of things to spend your billions on. Its one of the things I really like about this game - you can actually have "enough" money. Sure, you can always have more - but there's a point somewhere that every inf you make over that will never be spent.
For me, I can make a bil in about 2 weeks not trying very hard through the market.
I can "trick out" a toon putting in all of the IOs I am willing to pay for (purples make no sense to me - I have yet to slot them) and spend about 400-600 mil total. So as long as I am not making 4 new characters a week and leveling them to IO slotting stage, I have "too much" inf.
If I choose to blow it on an SG that has no purpose other than destroying inf, bully for me! If I want to give it away to someone else for guessing a number, bully for me! If you want to create 20 alts and hide billions in the market bidding on things that don't sell, bully for you! But you really should find a way to have some fun with your inf. Its not like you're playing a game or something...
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Actually, our Alter has bottles of freshly squeezed marketears on it for the members. Only the best for us |
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
But...but...they're the ebil marketeers! If they are colluding, it *has* to be to screw everybody else in the system so they can make their coffee with the freshest tears!
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I love Rp marketing
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Originally Posted by Misaligned
Actually, our Alter has bottles of freshly squeezed marketears on it for the members. Only the best for us
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We had a fire pit for burning inf but the locals shut us down. They cited some regulation about fires cannot be more than 50 feet high in enclosed spaces. I don't get it, but w/e. When I can figure out which City Official needs me to buy him a new house to get that law changed, then we'll go back to the bonfires.
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
I love Rp marketing
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I still dont get it. To each their own, yes. But like i said, a couple people burning 200bil inf an hour has nothing to do with me farming all week and selling drops. Yes, you may not afford it but the other guys that farm and IO toons sure can. Like i said, WW isnt hurting at all from you burning INF. |
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Ok, I see your point greystar. You think its a waste of time.
I can sort of agree with that. However, I see it like this: You create character A. You slot out Character A with everything your little heart desires. You then slot out Character A's 2nd build with everything your little heart desires. Character A then does a TF. What is the inf you generate from that TF going to be spent on? Another character? Great! But the same applies - and eventually, you will run out of things to spend your billions on. Its one of the things I really like about this game - you can actually have "enough" money. Sure, you can always have more - but there's a point somewhere that every inf you make over that will never be spent. For me, I can make a bil in about 2 weeks not trying very hard through the market. I can "trick out" a toon putting in all of the IOs I am willing to pay for (purples make no sense to me - I have yet to slot them) and spend about 400-600 mil total. So as long as I am not making 4 new characters a week and leveling them to IO slotting stage, I have "too much" inf. If I choose to blow it on an SG that has no purpose other than destroying inf, bully for me! If I want to give it away to someone else for guessing a number, bully for me! If you want to create 20 alts and hide billions in the market bidding on things that don't sell, bully for you! But you really should find a way to have some fun with your inf. Its not like you're playing a game or something... |
Ive been playing since 2004, and pl'ing toons. I IO them if i like them, delete if not. Then do it all over again with different builds. With all the possibilities, burning inf seems the least fun, lol. IMO.
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I'm perpetually amused by folk who say this or that activity is a waste of time.|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Ok, I see your point greystar. You think its a waste of time.
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I mean, we're playing a video game...EVERYTHING we do in this context is a waste of time.
Inventing your own fun is as good a way to pass time here as any other.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Graystar --
If the US government allowed people to photocopy dollar bills and use the photocopies as legal tender, what do you think would happen to the value of the dollar? What do you think would happen to prices?
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Well, the price of a photocopier would go up REAL fast :-)
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Graystar --
If the US government allowed people to photocopy dollar bills and use the photocopies as legal tender, what do you think would happen to the value of the dollar? What do you think would happen to prices? |
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Unless you are under two years old, you just lived through exactly the situation we're discussing.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
Then they had a bon fire and burned it all do you think that it would affect prices for cookie dough or beer.
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What happened to housing prices when a huge amount of "money" in the housing markets suddenly ceased to exist?
Here's a hint: They didn't go up. And they changed a lot.
And what that has meant, in turn, is that other prices have been effected. Thus far, they haven't gone down -- because various world governments just created (by fiat, because they're governments) enough money to mostly fill the gap.
Because in a real-world economy, deflation is incredibly destructive and can result in millions of people starving. (In a real economy, deflation means that investment becomes stupid. Deflation can completely destroy an economy. Lucky for us, video games don't face the same pressures.)
But think about it. We just saw hundreds of billions of dollars pushed into the economy to keep it from collapsing. Collapsing how? Collapsing in that since there was no longer enough money to continue paying existing prices for things, they'd have to either cost less or not get sold.
See? Take away money, prices drop. Prices on some things drop, and generally, as a result, prices on other things drop one way or another. In the real world, that's dangerous enough for people to commit to paying higher taxes for fifty years or longer to avoid it. In a video game, though, it's harmless; no one cares whether the inf they're spending today might buy more stuff a few months from now, because they'll have more inf by then anyway.
But seriously. We just saw this happen on an epic scale, resulting in record unemployment, billions of dollars of wealth disappearing from all sorts of people, and so on, and you're acting like this is unheard of and speculative? IT JUST HAPPENED. Like, in the last two, three, years. Repeatedly.
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Originally Posted by seebs
Unless you are under two years old, you just lived through exactly the situation we're discussing.
What happened to housing prices when a huge amount of "money" in the housing markets suddenly ceased to exist? Here's a hint: They didn't go up. And they changed a lot. And what that has meant, in turn, is that other prices have been effected. Thus far, they haven't gone down -- because various world governments just created (by fiat, because they're governments) enough money to mostly fill the gap. Because in a real-world economy, deflation is incredibly destructive and can result in millions of people starving. (In a real economy, deflation means that investment becomes stupid. Deflation can completely destroy an economy. Lucky for us, video games don't face the same pressures.) But think about it. We just saw hundreds of billions of dollars pushed into the economy to keep it from collapsing. Collapsing how? Collapsing in that since there was no longer enough money to continue paying existing prices for things, they'd have to either cost less or not get sold. See? Take away money, prices drop. Prices on some things drop, and generally, as a result, prices on other things drop one way or another. In the real world, that's dangerous enough for people to commit to paying higher taxes for fifty years or longer to avoid it. In a video game, though, it's harmless; no one cares whether the inf they're spending today might buy more stuff a few months from now, because they'll have more inf by then anyway. But seriously. We just saw this happen on an epic scale, resulting in record unemployment, billions of dollars of wealth disappearing from all sorts of people, and so on, and you're acting like this is unheard of and speculative? IT JUST HAPPENED. Like, in the last two, three, years. Repeatedly. |
I dont want this to turn into this so Lets STOP that talk here. I am a dem there i said it but i dont want to talk about politics, real world economics, or the like here. This is a game and my escape.
I thank you for your opinion and i appreciate your point of view but lets keep this on track.
The point still remains there is no reason to destroy influ. There is no economic reason/thought process that is valid for it. there is so much influ around that to "destroy" influ on one neiche is weird.
I still have yet to hear a valid argument for destroying influ.
Because they find it fun.
Thats valid enough since this is a video game.
>_>
<_<
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
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Keep Calm & Chive On!
(a) 10 ebil marketeers, each worth 20B never ever spend another inf they've ebilly accumulated, they'd affect the economy not one bit.
(b) Same 10 ebil marketeers each destroyed some or all of their 20B instead of merely hoarding, this in and of itself also has zero effect on the economy.
(C) Those 10 ebil marketeers decide to buy things w/their barrels of inf, they will by definition drive up prices. By what factor is irrelevant. They raise demand, thus prices go up.
But doing (b), they're guaranteed of doing less of (c), thus the demand side pressure is eased and prices, while they may not go down, will go up slower. If they are merely doing (b) instead of (a), they're not helping or harming the economy. I get the feeling the OP is stuck on this point, but there will be *some* less of (c) going on as a result of (b).
If Buffett and Gates both had no intention of spending another penny of their billions, no more charity, no inheritances, etc, they no longer affect the economy any more than if they just had a giant bonfire. However, the bonfire guarantees that they'll never spend their money, thus decreasing overall money supply and lessening inflationary pressures. Without that bonfire, they're almost certain to spend more of their money, thus increasing inflationary pressures.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
The point still remains there is no reason to destroy influ. There is no economic reason/thought process that is valid for it. there is so much influ around that to "destroy" influ on one neiche is weird.
I still have yet to hear a valid argument for destroying influ. |
Well - how about this:
I am destroying inf because I can. And I want to.
The same question could be posed to many things in this game:
Why spend 2 bil on a PvP IO?
Why spend WAY more than what I have destroyed on purples for a build that is marginally better with them?
Why race to 50 (as so many do) when 90% of the content you do is around level 30?
Why have costume contests? Why give out "prizes" for something as arbitrary as your opinion? Why hold a contest to guess what I'm spending on my Dom?
Why is a level 50 enhancement worth so much more than a 49?
Its a simple answer to all of these and it comes down to the same thing:
Its my $15 a month. I'll have fun any way I want. I expect you to do the exact same thing. Have fun any way you want!
Regardless - why does anyone care what someone else does with their inf? If I burn it on prestige or hoard it across 8 servers, the end result is still the same.
I started my project to get to #1 on Freedom because I got sick of recruit spam from a handful of VG in Cap. I want to be able to spam a snappy retort that I'm not recruiting and in fact #1......then I'll list the ebil folks who helped me get there....rather than all the PL, TF, and crap I supposedly run.
Removing inf from supply will lower prices if we do enough of it. Without access to the devs datamining tools its hard to say exactly, but I'd guess that something along the lines of 50B of inf enters the game every day and current inf sinks remove maybe 2.5B of it at most. So if we actually want to lower prices significantly we have 2 choices....we can pop tons of high end stuff (I lowered prices myself on redside purples in i14 because so few were doing non-AE stuff) or we can destroy tons of inf. Best of all we can do both at once.....I have been splitting time between marketeering and running amerit tips missions at +1 x8 to generate desirable items (and lower their price). Since I then "blow up" the inf I earn for the most part, I am doing something to lower prices. I can't do it alone in merged market though......so thats where Fulmens, Crazy 88's etc come in.
Anyhows, its mine....I earned it in this silly game so if I want to blow it up, I can.
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Well, can u add me to global and use some on my new SG base? |
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Well - how about this:
I am destroying inf because I can. And I want to. The same question could be posed to many things in this game: Why spend 2 bil on a PvP IO? Why spend WAY more than what I have destroyed on purples for a build that is marginally better with them? Why race to 50 (as so many do) when 90% of the content you do is around level 30? Why have costume contests? Why give out "prizes" for something as arbitrary as your opinion? Why hold a contest to guess what I'm spending on my Dom? Why is a level 50 enhancement worth so much more than a 49? Its a simple answer to all of these and it comes down to the same thing: Its my $15 a month. I'll have fun any way I want. I expect you to do the exact same thing. Have fun any way you want! Regardless - why does anyone care what someone else does with their inf? If I burn it on prestige or hoard it across 8 servers, the end result is still the same. |
I can pl toons at ease, but am not using my inf for prestige. The % is way to screwed up.
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Taking me, personally, as an example: I burnt somewhere around 10 billion inf recently. 8 billion on the base for the Loyal Opposition , a billion on the Crazy 88s, and I matched a few base builders. I am, by comparison to where I was this time two weeks ago, POOR. (I mean, I'm down to my last billion or something. Two weeks ago, I had characters with 500M sitting on them that I'd forgotten about. Seriously, there was a level 12 villain with half a billion that I hadn't logged in for two months. |
Originally Posted by dave_p
(a) 10 ebil marketeers, each worth 20B never ever spend another inf they've ebilly accumulated, they'd affect the economy not one bit.
(b) Same 10 ebil marketeers each destroyed some or all of their 20B instead of merely hoarding, this in and of itself also has zero effect on the economy. (C) Those 10 ebil marketeers decide to buy things w/their barrels of inf, they will by definition drive up prices. By what factor is irrelevant. They raise demand, thus prices go up. But doing (b), they're guaranteed of doing less of (c), thus the demand side pressure is eased and prices, while they may not go down, will go up slower. If they are merely doing (b) instead of (a), they're not helping or harming the economy. I get the feeling the OP is stuck on this point, but there will be *some* less of (c) going on as a result of (b). If Buffett and Gates both had no intention of spending another penny of their billions, no more charity, no inheritances, etc, they no longer affect the economy any more than if they just had a giant bonfire. However, the bonfire guarantees that they'll never spend their money, thus decreasing overall money supply and lessening inflationary pressures. Without that bonfire, they're almost certain to spend more of their money, thus increasing inflationary pressures. |
Two weeks ago, I had very little incentive to make money at the market. If I needed something, I bought it, no big. I made money, because I played the game... I was increasing the money supply.
This week, I'm out there grabbing recipes for a million, grabbing salvage for 2 million [not 3, I'm not made of money or something] and selling the product for 10 million. I'm putting money back in my pocket out of everyone else's pockets [well, rich peoples' pockets... anyone who needs to keep track of the difference between 3 million and 10 million is not a customer of mine] and so, assuming that I'm going to hoard this new money until I'm comfortable again: I'm removing money from the economy.
And, of course, every time I sell something for 10 million Mr. W takes a million off the top. .. even more inf destruction.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
With regard to the question of influence destruction, I have just one question, namely: Isn't the concept of destroying money to cause deflation pointless in a system that is infinite and not finite? What I mean to say is, doesn't that only work when the amount of money has a "cap"? In CoH the system of influence and item creation is open and infinite. In the real world, while gov'ts can surely make more, at any one moment, isn't there a finite and theoretically countable amount of currency and items?
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I think the fact that you are sitting on 40 billion and have nothing much to do with it pretty much sums up why others are destroying influence by converting it to prestige. There is too much influence in the ecosystem.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
I know somehave more than my 40 bill but i feel stupid rich not sure how much more i could ever use. But why destroy what you got?
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Edit-- And honestly, all of our efforts are probably but a flash in the pan.
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At any given time, in CoH, the total inf available is finite. Yes, you can make more -- but people are making more whether or not inf destruction is happening.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
With regard to the question of influence destruction, I have just one question, namely: Isn't the concept of destroying money to cause deflation pointless in a system that is infinite and not finite? What I mean to say is, doesn't that only work when the amount of money has a "cap"? In CoH the system of influence and item creation is open and infinite. In the real world, while gov'ts can surely make more, at any one moment, isn't there a finite and theoretically countable amount of currency and items?
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Inf destruction tends to reduce inflation, or potentially create temporary deflation. Since it would take time to come up with another two billion "new" inf, it slows the inflation down.
Furthermore, in the real world, there isn't a fixed amount of money, because banks can lend more money than they have, and people can borrow against things like stocks.
Say you have 1000 shares of Apple, and it's at $280. You "have" $280,000. You can borrow against it. But if Steve Jobs dies, suddenly Apple drops to $140, and you only "have" $140,000.
Again, this just happened on a very large scale within the last couple of years. Suddenly a lot of things stopped being worth money, and "net worth" was uncreated.
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The total amount of money that could exist in the game is theoretically infinite. (In practice it's the total amount of money one character can hold times the number of characters one player can create times the maximum number of players the game could support. For our purposes, I'm sure we can consider that "infinity")|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
With regard to the question of influence destruction, I have just one question, namely: Isn't the concept of destroying money to cause deflation pointless in a system that is infinite and not finite? What I mean to say is, doesn't that only work when the amount of money has a "cap"? In CoH the system of influence and item creation is open and infinite. In the real world, while gov'ts can surely make more, at any one moment, isn't there a finite and theoretically countable amount of currency and items?
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However, the rate at which money is being created is finite. It's the aggregate rate of generation by all players actually playing, usually one character at a time. Sure, some folks play 2 or more 50s at a time, but some people (almost certainly a lot more) play lowbies a lot, who inject comparatively very little into the money pool.
Strictly, for purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter quite so much how much money exists, but how much of existing money is being circulated back and for through the game market. I suspect a great deal of inf exists "trapped" on characters whose players don't use the market, or who have active accounts but don't play so much now, etc.
The flow of inf that's active in the market is important. When I want to buy something expensive, I intercept bits of that flow over time, add them together, then throw them back into the market when I buy, less the -10% fees. So not only is there new money probably being injected into the market as people kill foes and vendor recipes then buy something with the proceeds, but most of the money taken off the market by market sales is re-injected into the market when the sellers buy something with their sale proceeds.
If money is injected into the market, and the people who get it keep turning it back into the market by buying things with it, then the sellers buy with it again, and so on, 1 billion inf can power just shy of 10B inf in market transactions, before market fees eat it away to nothing. (Edit: It would be 10B exactly, but because we deal in round inf numbers, some of it is rounded out of existence.)
So imagine that I take 1B inf off of the market in proceeds from my own sales, and then never put any of it back. That's ~10B in transactions that can't happen until someone puts another billion back into the system.
This is the idea which gets people to destroy inf. It's not "destroy inf once, lower prices forever." You have to keep destroying inf, because of course people keep creating it and putting some of what they create into the market economy. How much are they lowering real prices? No idea. But the theory is sound, even though we don't know if it's worth doing in practice.
Unless everyone starts destroying inf, I can tell you that the only people with a chance in hell of using it to lower prices are the really high-roller market users (be they marketeers or something like a PvPO farmer), because they can aggregate cash from the market at rates higher than anyone. So while it's usually only a pursuit for those who are so wealthy they feel they have info to "burn", that's fine, because that's the people who are most likely to have an impact anyway.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Taking me, personally, as an example: I burnt somewhere around 10 billion inf recently. 8 billion on the base for the Loyal Opposition , a billion on the Crazy 88s, and I matched a few base builders. I am, by comparison to where I was this time two weeks ago, POOR. (I mean, I'm down to my last billion or something. Two weeks ago, I had characters with 500M sitting on them that I'd forgotten about. Seriously, there was a level 12 villain with half a billion that I hadn't logged in for two months.
Two weeks ago, I had very little incentive to make money at the market. If I needed something, I bought it, no big. I made money, because I played the game... I was increasing the money supply. This week, I'm out there grabbing recipes for a million, grabbing salvage for 2 million [not 3, I'm not made of money or something] and selling the product for 10 million. I'm putting money back in my pocket out of everyone else's pockets [well, rich peoples' pockets... anyone who needs to keep track of the difference between 3 million and 10 million is not a customer of mine] and so, assuming that I'm going to hoard this new money until I'm comfortable again: I'm removing money from the economy. |
Ditto.
It's an interesting feeling, caring about inf again.
Last night I needed a Deific Weapon so I automatically put up a lowball bid on a ten stack...and didn't have enough inf! Can't remember the last time that happened. I've also pillaged a bunch of unplayed alts- a few hundred million here, a few hundred million there, pretty soon you're talking *real money*.
My current thinking is to keep a billion 'liquid' on my main marketeers and funnel anything over that to the Crazy 88's on Monday of each new week. Destroying inf without really feeling the pinch, that's how I roll. =P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Graystar --
If the US government allowed people to photocopy dollar bills and use the photocopies as legal tender, what do you think would happen to the value of the dollar? What do you think would happen to prices? |
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Originally Posted by Thug_Two
Well, the price of a photocopier would go up REAL fast :-)
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"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
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Entertainment value.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
The point still remains there is no reason to destroy influ. There is no economic reason/thought process that is valid for it. there is so much influ around that to "destroy" influ on one neiche is weird.
I still have yet to hear a valid argument for destroying influ. |
There is also no valid argument for costume contests, badge collecting, or even playing a MMORPG at all.... except to have fun. And fun is entirely subjective. Personally, I think the whole inf destruction bit is silly.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Wrong metaphor. A flash in the pan is something that goes by very quickly. I believe you mean "a drop in the bucket". |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Edit-- And honestly, all of our efforts are probably but a flash in the pan.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Anyway, nobody's asking you to give up your inf, so don't worry about what they do with theirs.