Why don't I like The Hulk ?!?!?!
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-09-22 24:41 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Well the really big thing about the Hulk is not on the mind of many any more. He is the metaphor for the power of the the nuclear bomb. That is how he became the Hulk in the first place. Hulk constantly being stronger than Gen Ross's army, metaphor for how the bomb is more powerful than the standard real world armies.
Since it was established that he was wacky top dog due to literally being the bomb, you got power creep over the years. Bruce Wayne is still about justice about his parents. Spiderman, power begets responsibility, and Superman is still about aliens being for truth, justice, and the American Way.
The Hulk, is still about nuclear deterrence. Society doesn't obsess over thermonuclear war like it once did and of course some people could care less about that concept. So that leaves just the SMASH! and some could care less about that also.
Personally I loved me some of The Incredible Hercules.
Couldn't care less. It's couldn't care less.
I wouldn't have said anything but you used it twice!! 
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WWH and Civil War solidified Tony Stark and Reed Richards as villains for me. I can't stand either of those two characters. They deserve jail or a firing squad.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
WWH solidified him as a villain for me...but I also understand that it always depends on who is writing who.
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So yeah, I understand where you're coming from.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
If you think you can't control anger it tends to mean that you haven't ever had a temper to have to control. Trust me, anger can be controled
Also Superman is not about "truth, justice, and the american dream." He's about "I'd like someone like this to protect me." I've never heard the reasoning behind Batman, but given it's inspiration it was likely dark justice.
Most of Marvel's line up is meh to me. Most of their characters are ego centric to such a degree it's uninteresting.
I liked TV Hulk. Bill Bixby was great.
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You're not controlling the biology of it, just your mind, you're not succumbing to all the adrenalin and mental urges, you're keeping them down. And it's a fine thing to do, one of the hardest indeed... but that doesn't change the fact that your body is still telling you to do things, you're just using your mind to overcome it.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
If you think you can't control anger it tends to mean that you haven't ever had a temper to have to control. Trust me, anger can be controled
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However, Banner's transformation is spurred on by the body. He can control being angry mentally but his body still activates the transformation. Additionally, the starts of the transformation also make harder for him to mentally control it.
For those who don't enjoy Hulk or feel like you don't "get" the character, check out Peter David's run during the '90s, along with the Future Imperfect 2-shot. I loved Planet Hulk, and liked WWH well enough, but nothing humanized the character like David's run on the book. I would go so far as to say that if you haven't read at least some of it, you really should reconsider even commenting on the character. It's that definitive a run.
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The chemicals in your brain can be controlled by your mental processes as well. Sure you have a small amount of chemicals for anger, but you can instantly reverse it in a number of different ways. You are trying to separate brain from mind and that is just a wrong way to look at biology.
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Originally Posted by Zikar
You're not controlling the biology of it, just your mind, you're not succumbing to all the adrenalin and mental urges, you're keeping them down. And it's a fine thing to do, one of the hardest indeed... but that doesn't change the fact that your body is still telling you to do things, you're just using your mind to overcome it.
However, Banner's transformation is spurred on by the body. He can control being angry mentally but his body still activates the transformation. Additionally, the starts of the transformation also make harder for him to mentally control it. |
As was pointed out, it's not that Banner gets angry and then turns into the Hulk. It's the biological processes that happen when he feels various levels of stress, pain, fear or anger. Banner has no control over how his body responds to that. All that he can do is try to avoid those situations which may trigger the change.
As for Reed and Stark. WWH was a terrible story which I've tried to scrub from my brain. I can't remember anything which Reed or Stark did in that story which might paint them as villains. So I'm assuming your calling them villains for punting Hulk into space. As I remember it, that was in response to the Hulk's latest rampage which resulted in civilian deaths. Banishment seems to be a valid tactic used by Marvels heroes, Thor does it with his hammer, Magik has banished people to Limbo, Doc Strange does it and no one complains. How Hulk chose to respond to that puts the full blame on him. And he can't hide behind the "angry/rage" excuse because throughout the storyline we see him rationally thinking and planning the annihilation of those who he thinks wronged him. The whole attack was premeditated. Now Civil War Reed and Stark deserve to be locked up for a very long time, but they were nowhere near as bad as WWH Hulk.
Way to many alts.
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Yeah, that's pretty much fact. I mean you realize the Saiyans surpassed their universes version of god.
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Originally Posted by Nightphall
That's really unfair when you think about it. It seems that non-sayians have a level cap on how strong they are allowed to become, while sayians have no limit. Unless there are other alien races (like Pikkon's) who become stronger after every battle?
And then there were some beings in the afterlife who had trained themselves for 2,000 years. (Such as the Hercules-looking guy) Even Goku was shocked when he heard that. Which is what causes me disbelief when you mentioned Piccolo......I know that one day for us = one year in the time chamber, but even if he had trained utilizing various methods for 10 days (10 years in the time chamber), it still wouldn't be enough. I guess you can't outlevel an enemy in DBZ like you can in most RPGs unless you are a sayian.  |
what did Lou Ferrigno ever do to you ?
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This. I think it comes down to inconsistencies on a massive scale. The same problem that I think has plagued Wonder Woman, to a lesser extent. When I think of Spiderman, Wolverine, Superman, Batman, Captain America, Iron Man, I know who they are, what they are about, what their personalities are like. With the Hulk, I don't.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet_Phantom
The thing that bugs me about the Hulk is the slew of personalities and the juggeling between them depending on the writers preference. Then there is the inconsistencies, Greg Pak I'm looking at you. And his villains are kind of dull. The amount of gamma fueled baddies he is stuck fighting doesn't help matters. I like the Hulk but he is a hard character to keep writing interesting stories for.
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I should state here, I'm not a huge fan of the hulk. I try and try, I can't get into him in any format. The most recent movie was a decent movie, but I was never like, "whoa hulk is awesome!"
Though more than the inconsistencies I think it's another problem, I figured out after I saw Ang Lee's hulk. He doesn't have any really great villains. He doesn't have a Joker or Luthor or Dark Seid or Dr. Doom, or King Pen, or Venom or anything like that. A Super hero is defined by his rogue's galleries to a large extent and Hulk, who the hell does he fight? Who is his nemesis? Granted I'm not a huge comics expert, but when I ask people I know who know a lot of comics, they can't really tell me who Hulk's main baddies are.
Without a compelling Villain, a super hero is kind of Boring. Plus Hulks so over powered in his size and strength and what not. it's hard to come up with villains against him since his main weakness seems to be not controlling his anger. Honestly, a lot of times I think Hulk would be better as a villain.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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Off the top of my head: Abomination, The Leader, and General "Thunderbolt" Ross.
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Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
Granted I'm not a huge comics expert, but when I ask people I know who know a lot of comics, they can't really tell me who Hulk's main baddies are.
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Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
Those are the usual top three. However, I tend to look at the Hulk as something altogether different than your typical hero archetype. The way I see it, Banner is the hero. Whenever Hulk does something "good" it is a result of Banner's influence from within the subconscious of the Hulk.
Now it was pointed out earlier up-thread that the Hulk is an allegory of the nuclear threat. This is very much true, so when looking upon the Hulk within the context of the character within the story, it isn't so much a hero as it is a force of nature (or rather rage if you will).
Taking this into account, then I'd say that the Hulk's best antagonists tend to be other heroes. Sometimes this makes people think that the Hulk is the bad guy since it is the hero who is facing off against it, but if its understood that the Hulk isn't a villain but rather a force of nature (that usually is being corralled, contained, or directed toward the major threat).
So in my opinion the best Hulk stories are when a haunted Banner is trying to do something good to help someone else, while doing his best to either contain or free himself of the Hulk. Banner loses control (for one reason or another), and its other heroes to end up involved pitted against Hulk and its only when Banner manages to get through Hulk's rage-filled mental state that the Hulk is directed into doing something good and helps win the day. The Hulk makes his escape (just wanted to be alone) and Banner emerges to once again walk the land.
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I disagree. Whatever the reasoning behind Hulk's banishment, from what I know they tricked him. There was a problem in space and they needed the Hulk to take care of it, so they tricked him to help. On the way back, the shuttle then started off on it's aborted journey to happy bunny forest. Bruce had managed to keep and get control of the Hulk many times over his career. As I recall, until he lost Betty from his life, he did the best he could to control himself. Sadly, far to many enemies needed to be stopped by him for the many attempts to remove and control that side of his personality for good.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet_Phantom
As was pointed out, it's not that Banner gets angry and then turns into the Hulk. It's the biological processes that happen when he feels various levels of stress, pain, fear or anger. Banner has no control over how his body responds to that. All that he can do is try to avoid those situations which may trigger the change.
As for Reed and Stark. WWH was a terrible story which I've tried to scrub from my brain. I can't remember anything which Reed or Stark did in that story which might paint them as villains. So I'm assuming your calling them villains for punting Hulk into space. As I remember it, that was in response to the Hulk's latest rampage which resulted in civilian deaths. Banishment seems to be a valid tactic used by Marvels heroes, Thor does it with his hammer, Magik has banished people to Limbo, Doc Strange does it and no one complains. How Hulk chose to respond to that puts the full blame on him. And he can't hide behind the "angry/rage" excuse because throughout the storyline we see him rationally thinking and planning the annihilation of those who he thinks wronged him. The whole attack was premeditated. Now Civil War Reed and Stark deserve to be locked up for a very long time, but they were nowhere near as bad as WWH Hulk. |
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Bill Bixby was ok. He was not a good Banner. On the other hand, like many attempted super hero shows back then, that was not the Hulk. No where near his power levels even when the Hulk made his appearnace. The over all feel of the story was awful to me. |
Originally Posted by ObiWan
I liked TV Hulk. Bill Bixby was great.
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As for Lou... when my fiance first saw the series, she thought the Hulk was a woman. After all, only women have breasts that big, right?
Well, let's be honest about the tv show. With Spider-Man, it was being made on a shoestring budget and did amazingly well for the seasons it was on air, and it had to be sold on 'The Fugitive' premise, where Banner goes from town to town, with the reporter chasing down Hulk sightings.
There was no way you could do justice to the Hulk as shown in the comics at that point, not without CGI or a much larger budget. And if you look at Spider-Man with Nicholas Hammond, that show suffered way more than Hulk did. As for Bill Bixby, he's in 90% of each episode. The show was Banner-heavy, because it needed to be. And honestly, I think he sells Banner brilliantly. Out of all the characterisations of Banner, his is probably one of the strongest, and every time I hear the 'Lonely Man' theme (I think that's the right name), I can feel the sadness and loneliness as his Banner walks off to another town.
Show me another portrayal of Banner that's as haunted by the Hulk as his and I'll concede that to you happily.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Originally Posted by Warp_Factor
For those who don't enjoy Hulk or feel like you don't "get" the character, check out Peter David's run during the '90s, along with the Future Imperfect 2-shot. I loved Planet Hulk, and liked WWH well enough, but nothing humanized the character like David's run on the book. I would go so far as to say that if you haven't read at least some of it, you really should reconsider even commenting on the character. It's that definitive a run.
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I think some would go far as to say PAD's run on the Hulk (which was nearly six years) as probably the definitive run. I certainly would, as I was hooked from month to month and he was spot on with the Hulks he wrote (Grey, Green and Professor) and made him funny and just....fun to read. Future Imperfect with George Perez (my favorite all-time artist who I got to meet this year, yay!) is a stunning story. Couldn't agree more and encourage more for people to read his work on the book.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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After his rampage in Las Vegas he ended up killing 26 people. Maria Hill, the commander of Shield at that time has a conversation with Iron Man about it. She uses the Green Gobllin as a comparison and suggest that it would be better to kill a monster then lock it up untill it can escape again to go on killing. She then tells Stark, "Shield is doing everything it can to stop the Hulk, are you?" Shield was pretty much giving Stark license to deal with Hulk. They were sanctioned and aided by Shield, Shield personnel and property was used to get him on that shuttle. To complain that they tricked him is like a criminal complain about a sting operation the cops set up. The Hulk had the blood of those 26 people on his hands, he got off light.
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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
I disagree. Whatever the reasoning behind Hulk's banishment, from what I know they tricked him. There was a problem in space and they needed the Hulk to take care of it, so they tricked him to help. On the way back, the shuttle then started off on it's aborted journey to happy bunny forest. Bruce had managed to keep and get control of the Hulk many times over his career. As I recall, until he lost Betty from his life, he did the best he could to control himself. Sadly, far to many enemies needed to be stopped by him for the many attempts to remove and control that side of his personality for good.
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Way to many alts.
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To be fair and maybe preempt any confusion, Marvel has flip-flopped on whether Hulk has killed people. For a while they went with him killing 26 people in Vegas, then inexplicably characters stopped referring to it and Amadeus Cho started running around talking about how the Hulk never killed anyone. I'd write that off as Cho being a bit of a fanboy if not for the fact that no one in the entire freakin' MU that I've seen has mentioned the 26 in Vegas since sometime around when World War Hulk started.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet_Phantom
After his rampage in Las Vegas he ended up killing 26 people. Maria Hill, the commander of Shield at that time has a conversation with Iron Man about it. She uses the Green Gobllin as a comparison and suggest that it would be better to kill a monster then lock it up untill it can escape again to go on killing. She then tells Stark, "Shield is doing everything it can to stop the Hulk, are you?" Shield was pretty much giving Stark license to deal with Hulk. They were sanctioned and aided by Shield, Shield personnel and property was used to get him on that shuttle. To complain that they tricked him is like a criminal complain about a sting operation the cops set up. The Hulk had the blood of those 26 people on his hands, he got off light.
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Even though current writers are not writing about the implications of those civilians who were killed by the Hulk, it dosen't change the fact that his Las Vegas rampage was the reason for Shield and the Illuminati launching him into space.
Way to many alts.
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It's a good concept, but not one that maintains interest once you've 'told the story' so to speak.|
Originally Posted by The_Fallen_Angel
I do not mean the movie...or the comic specifically...but the character overall...
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Since comics require retelling and retelling and retelling the story ad infinitum, I'm with you on not feeling it. The concept isn't well suited to an open ended series IMHO.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Well, I'll leave this at a please be constructive in your authoritative correction in, at most, an idiom. Why are you correct?|
Originally Posted by Zikar
Couldn't care less. It's couldn't care less.
I wouldn't have said anything but you used it twice!! |
While not authoritative, this and this hints highly that I am far from the only one that makes this mistake. Are you this guy?
I believe this next link explains it clearly. It is a colloquialism.
Also make it a PM next time please. Hulk smashing people's grammar is never nice.
I have John Cleese on my side, your argument is invalid.
Also, you tell me to PM you next time, yet you post here to carry on an argument that was essentially a minor post of easily ignorable nerd-rage.
But whatever, let's get back to Hulk.
As for the Hulk being sympathetic. Depends which Hulk.
One type of Hulk is more like a child who wants to be left alone. This hulk is sympathetic, because it's everyone else constantly going after him even though if they just left him alone, he'd be harmless.
There are other types of Hulks that are more aggressive. The Green Scar is obviously much different due to his intelligence. And while is actions in World War Hulk were way over the top, I still find him slightly sympathetic due to his reasons.
I like how he was portrayed in the Ultimate universe. He's doing everything he can to be able to use the Hulk as a force of good...but unknown forces unlesh the rage side of Hulk and he becomes the villain.