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Why don't I like The Hulk ?!?!?!

Agonus

By Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-09-22 24:41 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture

 

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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Frieza was defeated before he threw those energy disks. Goku showed him mercy and then Frieza threw a tantrum over losing and ended up essentially shooting himself in the foot.
This.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Lastjustice View Post
I'm guessing you haven't paid much attention to the character or read anything I said about it. Just a hunch heh.
Your hunch is wrong

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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SMASH PUNY THREADJACKING GOKU!

<ahem>

Sorry, couldn't resist that....look, the Hulk isn't for everyone, but he's the antithesis of the other great power fantasy character, Superman. Instead of being the 'ordinary guy with godlike powers' that Superman has, the Hulk is driven by anger, is very inspired by Frankenstein and the Jekyll/Hyde motif, and is a great character for portraying often unwanted power.

I'm the first to acknowledge as a long-time Hulk reader (and I'm even bearing through the 'Hulk family' nonsense going on right now) that the introduction of his Multiple Personality Disorder was kind of unecessary, but it was also an acknowledgement that the 'Hulk Smash' concept was pretty thin on the ground if you were even remotely interested in the character.

But this is a character like any other can soar in the hands of the right writer. Look at Batman under Christopher Nolan. Less than ten years before Batman Begins, Batman was a joke character filmicly, and had even resorted to the 'broken back/replacement/comeback' story in his own books. That one movie comes out and voila, the character is almost reborn overnight.

Ang Lee tried to do this in his film, but came away with a flawed but beautiful piece of work. Louis Letterier went the other way but came closer to the source material. But ultimately, there has to be something you connect with in a character to get into them. I love the Nolan Batman films, but he's certainly not my must-see character of all time.

S.

Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Lastjustice View Post
Hulk is best when it focuses on psychology of the character than being nothing but a smash fest.(why I actually liked the Ang Lee hulk movie since I felt it did rather well on that side while the newer film was better on the action side.)
Yes! This, and I agree with everything else you wrote. I identify with the Hulk for much the same reasons as you, Lastjustice.

You all know that Hulk has a catchphrase: "Hulk SMASH!" But did you know that Banner has a catchphrase, too? It's from Paul Jenkins' run, but it's shown up since and in his video game:

"You can't break a man who's already broken."

Banner is a broken human being, and the Hulk is a manifestation of his damage. He understands that, and he knows that the rage of a broken man can do powerful and terrifying things. But if focused correctly, that rage can also turn a man into a hero.

Banner always keeps his focus. It's because he is a good man that Hulk is a hero.

As a broken human being myself, I need a hero like that. I need to be reminded that even at my worst, I can rise above my feral nature and be a good man.

I can understand if that kind of hero doesn't appeal to everyone, but by god it works for me.

...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
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Posted

There is not harm in not liking a character. I am not fond of most of the Avengers, Nick Fury, or Captain America. I don't hate the characters, they just never did it for me.

There are incarnations of characters I dislike as well. I dislike, well hate, the TV version of The Hulk and David Banner. This was the reason I disliked the Ed Norton version of The Hulk. Or the 70's TV Spider-man, or even the Adam West style Batman.

 

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Thanks for all the input gang...after reading through the posts and seeing lots of ideas...I think my interest wanes on the character due to a few factors...I do understand that the character is uncontrollable rage...but I guess it is hard for me to invest myself into a character emotionally when he is so powerful...

I know I am a Thor fan and Thor is powerful...but Thor has lost more than his share of battles over the years...especially when it involves The Hulk (and I will not even start on the whole Red Hulk fiasco)...my soon to be brother in law put it in wrestling terms for me "Hulk is The Undertaker and Thor is Kane"...LOL...I do own the Hulk vs movies and had no real beef with them other than I would have liked to see Thor with more offense...but that is a fanboy thought...LOL


I find it hard to invest in Super-Man as well...I think it is more that I find it hard to care about characters that seem to have no weakness... but I will admit I haven't read his books in a year or so and am curious to see what JMS is doing with the character as he was amazing on Thor...

"A great love is alot like a good memory. When it's there and you know it's there,but it's just out of your reach. It can be all that you think about. You can focus on it and try to force it but the more you do, the more you seem to push it away. But if you're patient and hold still...maybe...just maybe...it will come to you. I just need to be somewhere she can find me" - Church from Red vs Blue

 

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I've never really cared for the character. About the only time I've liked him is when he's been written by John Byrne or Peter David or Berni Wrightson. Of course I haven't seen any of the recent Hulk stories so I don't know how they would compare.

"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." -- Dinobot

 

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Originally Posted by The_Fallen_Angel View Post
Thanks for all the input gang...after reading through the posts and seeing lots of ideas...I think my interest wanes on the character due to a few factors...I do understand that the character is uncontrollable rage...but I guess it is hard for me to invest myself into a character emotionally when he is so powerful...

I know I am a Thor fan and Thor is powerful...but Thor has lost more than his share of battles over the years...especially when it involves The Hulk (and I will not even start on the whole Red Hulk fiasco)...my soon to be brother in law put it in wrestling terms for me "Hulk is The Undertaker and Thor is Kane"...LOL...I do own the Hulk vs movies and had no real beef with them other than I would have liked to see Thor with more offense...but that is a fanboy thought...LOL


I find it hard to invest in Super-Man as well...I think it is more that I find it hard to care about characters that seem to have no weakness... but I will admit I haven't read his books in a year or so and am curious to see what JMS is doing with the character as he was amazing on Thor...
My personal opinion. Avoid Spider-man. OMD/BND and OMIT have ruined the character. I know someone is going to post after this and say otherwise, but... selling your marriage for life of a woman ready to move on is patently ridiculous, much less the way things were changed afterwards. Peter's actions were not very hyeroic, and not in character.

*steps away from the post due to nerdrage building*

Yeah... I am not fond of the change.

As for Red Hulk... that was another WTF moments in comics, and I am surprised it went so far.

 

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I think the second movie did it better than the comics are doing it now. I don't like it when the Hulk and Banner are in "agreement" with each other. Both should want to desperately want to eliminate each other.

"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

 

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Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Frieza was defeated before he threw those energy disks. Goku showed him mercy and then Frieza threw a tantrum over losing and ended up essentially shooting himself in the foot.
Freeza was alive and well (if beaten up) up to that point, just because Goku arbitrarily declared himself the winner doesn't mean he actually won (until the discs slice Freeza in half, that is). Future Trunks is the one who actually finished the job.

 

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Now, I'll be honest. I don't really care for the Hulk myself, either. However, the problem for me is not that I don't like the Hulk himself, but because I really don't care for Marvel anymore (With the sole exception of Deadpool). And this all boils down to one simple reason: Marvel has pretty much destroyed my ability to care about their characters. Simply put, theres no growth anymore.

Why should I care if a character dies, when they are simply going to be ressurected six months later (Despite however Marvel may insist otherwise)? Or if a character makes a life altering move, when it's simply going to be retconned away anyways (Once again, despite how much Marvel may claim otherwise)? Character gets married or finds a life partner? Hell, their just going to end up in a fridge, or their marriage will be anulled in the most asinine way possible by an editor who thinks he knows better, anyways. So... why? Why should I care? Nothings going to happen, everythings always just going to return to the Status Quo by the end of the month.

 

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Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Freeza was alive and well (if beaten up) up to that point, just because Goku arbitrarily declared himself the winner doesn't mean he actually won (until the discs slice Freeza in half, that is). Future Trunks is the one who actually finished the job.
You realise that you can defeat someone without killing them right?

Additionally, Goku didn't declare himself winner "arbitrarily". Freeza had lost all his power, there was no possible way that he could win.

 

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Originally Posted by Zikar View Post
You realise that you can defeat someone without killing them right?

Additionally, Goku didn't declare himself winner "arbitrarily". Freeza had lost all his power, there was no possible way that he could win.
It should also be noted that the only reason that Future Trunks killed Freeza was because he thought that Goku wouldn't make it in time. It's heavily implied that Goku would have mopped the floor with Cyber Freeza and King Cold, much like Future Trunks did.

 

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Originally Posted by LiquidX View Post
Theres more to it then that. For one, Goku trains (Alot), wears weighted clothing, ect. We even saw how he and Gohan had to spend a years worth of time training in the Hyperbolic time chamber just to get to the point he could take on Cell (And still wasn't strong enough to defeat him then). At the same time, Goku and Vegeta (Both being Saiyans) also get stronger with each defeat, coming back more powerfull each time they recover from death/near death. (In fact, the same appears to be true for the Halfblooded Saiyans like Gohan, Goten, and Trunks).

At the same time, we've also seen Goku train to overcome weaknesses. An example of this was when Goku had Gohan and Himself spend the entire time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in Super Saiyan mode, so that it became as natural to them as anything else. This elemenated the weakness of causing their reactions to slow down as they became more powerfull (An issue Trunks first discovered for himself when going up against an Imperfect Cell). So it's not that it's stuff just being pulled out the ***, without any real explanations.
Usually when a post like this appears, I ask the following question, but rarely have I gotten an answer.....

How much longer would the people who trained in the time chamber (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks) have had to stay in to become Cell's equal, without powering up or transforming, assuming the rule could be broken and one could stay in the time chamber beyond the normal limit?

I never did find it fair how strong Cell was, who never trained a day in his life. He absorbed 2 androids and hundreds of humans to increase his power, but still.....You'd think Dr. Gero would have programmed battle simulations into Cell........or did he?

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Originally Posted by Zikar View Post
You realise that you can defeat someone without killing them right?
You can defeat someone like Tenshinhan, Piccoro or even Vegeta without killing them, but you can't defeat someone like Freeza until you kill him. Freeza also survived Goku's counter-attack (after that unsuccesful last stand against Goku) AND the explosion of Planet Namek.

And I'm not saying Goku would've not wiped the floor with Freeza and Cold, I'm just saying it was Future Trunks that did it. The only major villain in DBZ that Goku "defeated" (killed) was Majin Boo

 

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd View Post
As a broken human being myself
You know that broken things can be fixed, don't you?

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Nightphall View Post
Usually when a post like this appears, I ask the following question, but rarely have I gotten an answer.....

How much longer would the people who trained in the time chamber (Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks) have had to stay in to become Cell's equal, without powering up or transforming, assuming the rule could be broken and one could stay in the time chamber beyond the normal limit?

I never did find it fair how strong Cell was, who never trained a day in his life. He absorbed 2 androids and hundreds of humans to increase his power, but still.....You'd think Dr. Gero would have programmed battle simulations into Cell........or did he?
Theoretically, Vegeta and Trunks could have been about on par with Goku had they done what he and Gohan did and stay in Super Saiyan form as much as humanly possible. As for Piccolo, it may not have even been possible. Remember, Saiyans are a race genetically ideal for fighting. As for Cell, he wouldn't have gotten so strong if Vegeta hadn't let his ego get the best of him and let Cell absorb the androids.

 

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Originally Posted by LiquidX View Post
Theoretically, Vegeta and Trunks could have been about on par with Goku had they done what he and Gohan did and stay in Super Saiyan form as much as humanly possible. As for Piccolo, it may not have even been possible. Remember, Saiyans are a race genetically ideal for fighting. As for Cell, he wouldn't have gotten so strong if Vegeta hadn't let his ego get the best of him and let Cell absorb the androids.

That's really unfair when you think about it. It seems that non-sayians have a level cap on how strong they are allowed to become, while sayians have no limit. Unless there are other alien races (like Pikkon's) who become stronger after every battle?

And then there were some beings in the afterlife who had trained themselves for 2,000 years. (Such as the Hercules-looking guy) Even Goku was shocked when he heard that. Which is what causes me disbelief when you mentioned Piccolo......I know that one day for us = one year in the time chamber, but even if he had trained utilizing various methods for 10 days (10 years in the time chamber), it still wouldn't be enough. I guess you can't outlevel an enemy in DBZ like you can in most RPGs unless you are a sayian.

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Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
You can defeat someone like Tenshinhan, Piccoro or even Vegeta without killing them, but you can't defeat someone like Freeza until you kill him.
Sure you can. Defeating any given foe doesn't mean that they won't ever attack you again. Indeed, such is a staple of comic book superheroes and their ineffable foes. Just because Doctor Baron (The Evil Arch-Duke of Imperia) kidnaps Captain National and the Fantastic's macaroni casserole next issue doesn't mean he wasn't defeated in the previous issue.

Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

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Originally Posted by Zikar View Post
There's also the other thing, it appeals to power fantasies. Who, really hasn't as some pointed wanted to go "Forget this!" Hulk out and beat the tar out of someone that really deserves it?
I don't find Hulk really all that sympathetic at all and that is as someone that has come closer to that type of situation than most. Getting that angry and turning into someone else, doing things you normally wouldn't, and not really having any control. Yeah, been there. The fact that as far as I have seen he hasn't really learned to control his anger is disgusting to me. This is why to me, Batman and Superman and many other DC chars are so much more sympathetic to me. Having the power to decimate someone, and even having a huge amount of fury, but still keeping it in check and trying to do whats right without hurting people.

Banner doesn't do this. He's a emo twit that in the end doesn't care about anyone but himself and while he may do some good, it's not cause he's a good person, but rather it just happens that it works out better for himself. He can't even be trusted to do what's good for himself, because he has no self control either...so for me he's one of the worst "entities" in all of fiction and I'd much rather read about anyone else and probably team with just about anyone else. I mean Darkseid is evil, but at least he's an evil that's consistent.

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
You know that broken things can be fixed, don't you?
I've been patched together well enough to function, but I'll never be right. Some things never work the same after they've been shattered and put back together.

...
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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
The fact that as far as I have seen he hasn't really learned to control his anger is disgusting to me. This is why to me, Batman and Superman and many other DC chars are so much more sympathetic to me. Having the power to decimate someone, and even having a huge amount of fury, but still keeping it in check and trying to do whats right without hurting people.
Yes sir...having the power to do anything you want and choosing to do good is exactly why I love characters like Superman and Invincible.

 

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I don't find Hulk really all that sympathetic at all and that is as someone that has come closer to that type of situation than most. Getting that angry and turning into someone else, doing things you normally wouldn't, and not really having any control. Yeah, been there. The fact that as far as I have seen he hasn't really learned to control his anger is disgusting to me. This is why to me, Batman and Superman and many other DC chars are so much more sympathetic to me. Having the power to decimate someone, and even having a huge amount of fury, but still keeping it in check and trying to do whats right without hurting people.

Banner doesn't do this. He's a emo twit that in the end doesn't care about anyone but himself and while he may do some good, it's not cause he's a good person, but rather it just happens that it works out better for himself.
Absolutely wrong, in the comics. (The movies didn't pose the good/evil question very well.)

The trick with having a rage that can defeat anyone is that you should only bring it out when justified. Banner only brings out the Hulk when it is absolutely needed in pursuit of a good cause or when his life is in danger. (As a comic book character, these situations happen at least once an issue. )

Banner has *tremendous* self control, and has shown himself to be a good man over and over again. He's probably the most selfless character in all of comics. Seriously, he doesn't want *anything* for himself except to never turn into the Hulk again, and maybe Betty if she'll have him. If he takes any action at all, it's to help other people.

The Hulk, being a different personality, is not as sympathetic. He can be selfish and careless with his power. But you can't blame him for that; he's rage incarnate. He does still has Banner's moral compass to guide him subconsciously, so he still works on the side of the good guys.

But as we said above, the best Hulk stories are those that focus on Banner, not the big green baby.

...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.

 

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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia View Post
There is not harm in not liking a character. I am not fond of most of the Avengers, Nick Fury, or Captain America. I don't hate the characters, they just never did it for me.

There are incarnations of characters I dislike as well. I dislike, well hate, the TV version of The Hulk and David Banner. This was the reason I disliked the Ed Norton version of The Hulk. Or the 70's TV Spider-man, or even the Adam West style Batman.
'Aye.

Never really been a fan of the core Avengers here. I loved the first Iron Man movie, but that version of the character doesn't translate to the comics at all. I like the idea of the Hulk, and loved Planet Hulk and World War Hulk, but anything after that has sucked.

Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.

good luck D.B.B.

 

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I don't find Hulk really all that sympathetic at all and that is as someone that has come closer to that type of situation than most. Getting that angry and turning into someone else, doing things you normally wouldn't, and not really having any control. Yeah, been there. The fact that as far as I have seen he hasn't really learned to control his anger is disgusting to me. This is why to me, Batman and Superman and many other DC chars are so much more sympathetic to me. Having the power to decimate someone, and even having a huge amount of fury, but still keeping it in check and trying to do whats right without hurting people.

Banner doesn't do this. He's a emo twit that in the end doesn't care about anyone but himself and while he may do some good, it's not cause he's a good person, but rather it just happens that it works out better for himself. He can't even be trusted to do what's good for himself, because he has no self control either...so for me he's one of the worst "entities" in all of fiction and I'd much rather read about anyone else and probably team with just about anyone else. I mean Darkseid is evil, but at least he's an evil that's consistent.
People cannot control anger. That is, we cannot stop ourselves feeling it. We can stop ourselves acting on it, but we can't stop ourselves actually feeling it, those biological impulses happen whether we like it or not. Since the Hulk is a biological impulse, that is often been connected with increased adrenalin, Bruce (or anyone) does not have the ability to stop the Hulk coming out... that's why he wants to be rid of the Hulk.

As for the Hulk being sympathetic. Depends which Hulk.
One type of Hulk is more like a child who wants to be left alone. This hulk is sympathetic, because it's everyone else constantly going after him even though if they just left him alone, he'd be harmless.
There are other types of Hulks that are more aggressive. The Green Scar is obviously much different due to his intelligence. And while is actions in World War Hulk were way over the top, I still find him slightly sympathetic due to his reasons.