Increase effective time of Force Field bubbles to 10 minutes
By
BBQ_Pork,
Posted on: 2010-09-18 13:17 in Suggestions and Ideas
" I personally enjoy the short length of the bubbles, as remembering to keep up the buff cycle is an exciting aspect of the game for me. Changing this would remove that aspect for me, and result in a far less engaging play experience."
Lovingly Yours,
-Devil's Advocate
As a Bots/FF MM, I'm already close to AFK in missions, with the exception of spamming (5-slotted) Force Bolt for lulz.
As a FF/Energy Defender, I've got plenty of time to blast between bubble application.
However, if the duration could be extended without increasing the EndCost or reducing the Defensive Buff, then sure, I would not mind.
And how much less effective are you willing to let those bubbles be?
/unsigned, as always. (And this is coming from someone running Bots/FF, Earth/FF, Sonic/Sonic (x2, one Def, one Corr,) Ill/Sonic and mutliple other affected combos. It's not that big a deal.)
and as always, if you would have searched, you would have found this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=236492
/unsinged.
And of course we'd get people glitching dual applications of bubs to greater effect. No thanks.
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That's basically a form letter you can put together for anything ever. You could make a counter-argument using those exact same words if the developers offered to pay us money to play their game.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
"I personally enjoy the short length of the bubbles, as remembering to keep up the buff cycle is an exciting aspect of the game for me. Changing this would remove that aspect for me, and result in a far less engaging play experience."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Since there is no exact formula for buff length/effectiveness, increasing the length shouldn't require a decrease in effectiveness or an endurance increase. If anything it could simply be a quality of life change as long as it doesn't break the game. Doubling the length seems like a decent amount.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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actually it falls into the power formula. you want longer duration you pay with more recharge and more end with less buff effect. go read the link i posted to another thread that is the exact same thing as this one almost.
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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
Since there is no exact formula for buff length/effectiveness, increasing the length shouldn't require a decrease in effectiveness or an endurance increase. If anything it could simply be a quality of life change as long as it doesn't break the game. Doubling the length seems like a decent amount.
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However, given the dev team's history and general view, not having an "exact formula" doesn't matter. Unless something is underperforming in some way, enhancing a power will result in an extra cost somewhere. |
Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
Since there is no exact formula for buff length/effectiveness, increasing the length shouldn't require a decrease in effectiveness or an endurance increase.
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Example of underperforming:
Electric Armor / Energy Aura - Given a self heal to compensate (mixed in with the end drain.)
Example of "wish list" reply:
Giving actual control to Controller pets means they will be less durable or do less damage.
The buffs are not underperforming. ("I don't like applying them this much" is not underperforming, it's personal opinion.) Therefore, increasing their duration will be "paid for" by an increased END cost or decreased effectiveness (or something else.)
I would just like if there was a setting in the options, where we decide what buffs are shown, to "show only buffs provided by me." That way, if there's another bubbler on the team, or even just a bunch of folks with leadership, it's a bit simpler for me to see which of my teammates I still need to buff, or which buffs are wearing off, without confusing my buffs for the other guys, or having to deal with a huge string of icons covering half my screen.
Dear NCsoft, if you go through with this shutdown you've guaranteed you'll not see another dime from me on any project you put out, ever.
http://xx-starhammer-xx.deviantart.com/
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Now that I can get behind. (At least with my controllers, 32 and up, I can toss a bubble on the pet first - is that flashing? Then everyone else is going to need a re-buff. Either that or use Herostats ingame display.)
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Originally Posted by Starhammer
I would just like if there was a setting in the options, where we decide what buffs are shown, to "show only buffs provided by me." That way, if there's another bubbler on the team, or even just a bunch of folks with leadership, it's a bit simpler for me to see which of my teammates I still need to buff, or which buffs are wearing off, without confusing my buffs for the other guys, or having to deal with a huge string of icons covering half my screen.
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Given that the buffs are effectively permanent for an entire team right out of the box, as it were, any increase to their duration is essentially a QoL improvement rather than a performance boost. It would be daft to balance such a QoL improvement with a performance decrease.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The buffs are not underperforming. ("I don't like applying them this much" is not underperforming, it's personal opinion.) Therefore, increasing their duration will be "paid for" by an increased END cost or decreased effectiveness (or something else.)
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That said, as single target click buffs go, I think the duration on the various "bubbles" is fine. For me they are currently riding a fine line between being short enough on duration that the re-application annoys me and being so long in duration that I forget to reapply them.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I have those bubblers/shielders at level 50. And what I can say, is that the 4 minutes timer seem just fine with me.
Instead of increasing their lengths to 10mins, let's increase Speed Boost to a 4 minute duration, so I can play one without hating it. 
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The argument could be made that the buffer in question now uses less endurance per second than intended because his buffs all suddenly had their duration greatly increased, in which case the devs might see it fit to do something like increase the endurance cost of the power. This is usually the point when people speculate that they will not be able to handle such a large amount of endurance lost all at once every 10 minutes (or whatever is being proposed), and deny wanting the change because it might ruin their build somehow.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Given that the buffs are effectively permanent for an entire team right out of the box, as it were, any increase to their duration is essentially a QoL improvement rather than a performance boost. It would be daft to balance such a QoL improvement with a performance decrease.
That said, as single target click buffs go, I think the duration on the various "bubbles" is fine. For me they are currently riding a fine line between being short enough on duration that the re-application annoys me and being so long in duration that I forget to reapply them. |
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This is the best argument against a duration increase. When you change zones (this includes entering/exiting a mission), the game loses track of who applied the buff. This means the original caster can reapply the buff a second time, allowing it to stack.|
Originally Posted by Lurker Hunter
And of course we'd get people glitching dual applications of bubs to greater effect. No thanks.
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With a 4-minute timer, you can do this, but it's not really worth the time investment since the first buff will wear off soon enough that it makes no difference. With a 10-minute timer, you could multi-stack the buff and still have plenty of time on the clock before the first buff wears off.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
What of having the endurance of the casting greatly increased, say.... half your endurance unslotted, and instead of longer bubble life, a "team buff" That applies to everyone like a pet upgrade applies to pets. To prevent people from abusing the "Door glitch" bump up the recharge rate to something like a minute.
Probably a silly idea and the actual figures can be diddled with but just a random thought.
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That would invoke the cottage rule, and thus such a change is highly unlikely.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
What of having the endurance of the casting greatly increased, say.... half your endurance unslotted, and instead of longer bubble life, a "team buff" That applies to everyone like a pet upgrade applies to pets. To prevent people from abusing the "Door glitch" bump up the recharge rate to something like a minute.
Probably a silly idea and the actual figures can be diddled with but just a random thought. |
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That's not really cottage rule violation. Cottage rule only applies to changing the basic functionality of the power. The power would still be providing a defense buff to the team and not to yourself, so the Cottage Rule isn't invoked.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
That would invoke the cottage rule, and thus such a change is highly unlikely.
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For the OP, I think the main issue is the door glitch feature as mentioned a couple times here (or should the "feature" be fixed?). Also, why 10 minutes? I believe if the bubbles were extended to 10 minutes, somebody would ask to make it 20 minutes. 
I play quite a few bubblers myself. I think 4 minutes are acceptable if the toon is not MM. The original intention is that there is a cost to maintain the strong buff: endurance and the time of the buffer. I play a MM with force field as well. I think that bubbling a full team and all my pets is a problem. Practically, it is not always necessary to buff everybody. But ideally, I would like to do so.
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This is a pretty good idea. The idea was suggested before though. Usually, people suggest this idea instead of increasing the bubble effective time. I think this is a QoL improvement, in particular for force field MMs who would like to buff both team mates and pets.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
What of having the endurance of the casting greatly increased, say.... half your endurance unslotted, and instead of longer bubble life, a "team buff" That applies to everyone like a pet upgrade applies to pets. To prevent people from abusing the "Door glitch" bump up the recharge rate to something like a minute.
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In my opinion, I don't think it is a big deal if a player can one-click and buff everybody and pets. I don't think the challenge of this game should be re-buffing every 4 minutes anyway. However, there are probably some technical issues on the implementation of the suggested change.
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Originally Posted by Starhammer
I would just like if there was a setting in the options, where we decide what buffs are shown, to "show only buffs provided by me." That way, if there's another bubbler on the team, or even just a bunch of folks with leadership, it's a bit simpler for me to see which of my teammates I still need to buff, or which buffs are wearing off, without confusing my buffs for the other guys, or having to deal with a huge string of icons covering half my screen.
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But yeah, I would like the option as well. Quote:
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Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
An option to turn them off if you don't want them on for that long would be nice too, especially for those ugly ice shields.
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I would love an option to cancel buffs.
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You sure? I gave a similiar rendition for Speed Boost and I was told this type of change would be a cottage rule violation because it was turning the power from a single target to an AoE, regardless of the fact that it's still providing the same basic function.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
That's not really cottage rule violation. Cottage rule only applies to changing the basic functionality of the power. The power would still be providing a defense buff to the team and not to yourself, so the Cottage Rule isn't invoked.
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Really, you're just making an argument for the devs to fix the "exploit" that allows buffers to double-bubble characters. In many missions the main objective can be reached immediately after entering the mission (say, the Nightstar on the roof mission, the Psychic Clockwork King, or any of the AVs on the big open maps). So there are many instances where the exploit can be used, if you know what you're doing.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
This is the best argument against a duration increase. When you change zones (this includes entering/exiting a mission), the game loses track of who applied the buff. This means the original caster can reapply the buff a second time, allowing it to stack.
With a 4-minute timer, you can do this, but it's not really worth the time investment since the first buff will wear off soon enough that it makes no difference. With a 10-minute timer, you could multi-stack the buff and still have plenty of time on the clock before the first buff wears off. |
Rather than increasing the duration of bubbles across the board, another possible implementation would be to provide a new duration enhancement for buffing powers. If you want to increase their duration you would have to sacrifice something (slots, recharge, end usage, defensive value) in order to get the longer duration.
If you want to double the length of a buff, you'd have to three-slot it with duration enhancements. That means you're giving up at least two slots, and potentially the ability to slot sets or add more defense.
This would let people who don't want anything to change have their way, and allow people who want longer durations to get them a cost that doesn't affect the people who don't need or want them.
I think the best "happy medium" would be to create a new set of enhancements.
"Increase buff duration."
This way people who ARE bothered by the need to reapply buffs could increase their duration via enhancing, and people who aren't can go on using those slots and powers exactly as is.
If you aren't bothered enough to be willing to give up the enhancement slot for it, you aren't really bothered. If you ARE, you aren't affecting anyone else's game play by forcing a nerf to effectiveness or an increase to end cost just so you have less to worry about.
Personally, I can think of some sets and powers (kinetics Speed Boost or ID) that I'd use it on, and many many more that I wouldn't.
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True, resolving the issue with zoning would remove that argument. But it's a fundamental flaw in the way zoning works that the game loses track of who cast what; not something easy to fix. Even Mastermind pets, which in theory have circumvented this problem, still bug out and lose track of who their master is. And they have a much closer tie to their original caster than ally buffs do.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Really, you're just making an argument for the devs to fix the "exploit" that allows buffers to double-bubble characters.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
Rather than increasing the duration of bubbles across the board, another possible implementation would be to provide a new duration enhancement for buffing powers. If you want to increase their duration you would have to sacrifice something (slots, recharge, end usage, defensive value) in order to get the longer duration.
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In short: you can't have a defense magnitude enhancement and a defense duration enhancement. The powers system doesn't allow for it.
The only alternative I can think of would be to make two defense effects; one allows magnitude enhancement and the other allows duration enhancement. With 56% enhancement, that would get you 1.28x the base defense value for the base duration, and then 0.5x the base defense value for 0.56x the base duration.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Another thought that occurs to me, at least for bubble powersets that consistently include 2 or more single application short term bubbles, would be to change the relevant powers so that if you have both of them, application of one performs like application of both.
Say for instance the Force Field shields... 1st shield provides some smashing/lethal defense, 2nd shield provides energy/fire/etc. (there's more to it, but that's sufficient for this example... for the same reason I'll be using some "simpler than actual" numbers)
Change each power so that if you have just the first shield, it still works the way it does now, same for the second. But if you have both shield powers, each of them provides the buff of both of them combined (smashing/lethal/fire/energy/etc.) and the base endurance cost doubles. Now as long as you have both, you can use just one and get the effects of both. In net effect, it gains some benefit by reducing the total application time for the whole team. (There's also some room for abuse with the need for enhancements, but I'm just posting an idea to consider, not a comprehensive design for total overhaul) The quality of life issues would be simplified significantly though, as it reduces the potential for confusion over who needs which buffs (the icons look the same to me, especially the tiny ones... and not everyone is capable of writing out keybinds that cycle which buff is applied like I do), it gives a "100% reduction to power effects spam" for the selected powers, and provides a little more time before bubblers start suffering from carpal tunnel syndrome.
All in all, even I think this idea is more work to implement in retrofitting existing powers than it would be worth... but I think it would be something to consider the value of if the time comes that they need to overhaul the powers anyway, or create new powers of a similar nature.
Another possibility to consider would be to retrofit the powers as a targeted or point blank Area of Effect, that hits everyone, then charges you a much higher endurance cost, similar to how MM pet buffs were overhauled.
Yet one more option to consider would be enhancements to a power's duration. I know there's a lot of powers I'd like to see that available for.
Dear NCsoft, if you go through with this shutdown you've guaranteed you'll not see another dime from me on any project you put out, ever.
http://xx-starhammer-xx.deviantart.com/
Reshielding party members and pets multiple times per mission is not very fun. Why not just increase the effective time of the bubbles from 4 minutes to 10 minutes? Likewise for sonic shields, etc.
An option to turn them off if you don't want them on for that long would be nice too, especially for those ugly ice shields.
Thanks.