No, no, you're not SAVING the customer money!
You're GOUGING THE EYES OUT OF ANOTHER MARKETEER by ruining their niche!
Think of the marketeers... out with their children on a beautiful spring day... unable to catch a ball.
Then look at your shiny white hat and ask yourself: Do I deserve it? Really?
(... I just took someone's "Buy at 7, sell at 80" niche down to "Buy at 7, sell at 55". Maybe it woulda happened anyway. That's what I tell myself at night... lying in bed, not sleeping. Maybe.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
It sounds like taking advantage of the clueless.
This makes kittens cry. 
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Actually, most of the time I buy crafted enhancements cheaper than I could buy the recipes.
Who knew?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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Buying a recipe and making profit off of the sale of the finished enhancement does more than simply provide the service of finding and crafting that enhancement for the customer. | saving a potential player a considerable amount of time and effort |
In the instance where there is someone already doing this activity, an additional marketeer moving in increases the selling price for the recipe while decreasing the selling price for the finished enhancement, both of which should be considered favorable by anyone that doesn't care to invest much time into the market.
There are only "obscene" profits made from the crafting of enhancements when there are few, or one, people pursuing those recipes. Those profits should attract more marketeers, which would stabilize the costs due to the competition.
This only becomes a problem where there are few, or one, people investing in a niche. However, in my experience, in situations where one person can reasonably control an item that same item is extremely under supplied and the (typically) high selling prices for that enhancement are the only way to keep any supply in the market.
More than once I've seen a particular enhancement that spans 15~20 levels available at only two of those levels. I feel no guilt for purposefully putting up such enhancements for sale at inflated costs. I've even bought some from myself on other characters because I was the only one that had them up for sale.
It doesn't matter how much something costs when there are none for sale. Any long time red-side player can tell you that.
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|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
It sounds like taking advantage of the clueless.
This makes kittens cry. |
Let me pose this question:
Are you, the White Hat Marketeer, doing anything that someone couldn't potentially do in the first 10 minutes of playing the game?
You are using your knowledge to further your personal goals in this game. Does someone complain when a person learns all there is to know about a certain AT and then they build a monster by using that knowledge?
1 - You sell stuff
2 - People buy stuff
3 - There is NO requirement to buy anything ever in this game. Ever. For any reason.
4 - People want what you are selling. They do not need it. They are pissy because they want you to provide it to them for free. Not just cheap, but free. If general margins were 10% over the actual physical cost of purchasing the components (if a vendor would sell back what you sold them for example), people would still complain.
5 - I have never over paid for any enhancement. Ever. I'm cheap and frankly, I don't need anything RIGHT NAO!
6 - You have something (money) that they do not. Therefore, you are bad and they are not.They want what you have. They do not wish to work for it at all. Therefore, you are bad.
7 - The mentality of the people in this game is the same as in RL. "I don't know how you got X, but i don't have X, and therefore I will assume that you got X through nefarious deeds and underhanded behavior because that excuses me for my lack."
As for "saving them time and effort"...
If someone feels that clicking in a game is too much effort... well, I'm sure using the restroom is bit too much effort as well. And time... saving time...
It takes what... 2 minutes to buy all of the stuff and make an enhancement? Heck, let's say its 10. 10 minutes of your time is worth very little to your lazy butt if you can't be bothered to make something you want.
You are providing the lazy with a service. If this was an awful way to do business, Pizza Hut would stop coming to your house 
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It IS an awful way to do business! I mean, they have to resort to MIND CONTROL tricks during television programs -- and the amazing thing is, it actually works!|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
You are providing the lazy with a service. If this was an awful way to do business, Pizza Hut would stop coming to your house
|
"Gee, I'm hungry, but I don't want to get my lazy butt off the couch during this football game. I wonder what...mmmmmmmm! Pizza!"
One phone call or a few mouseclicks later, some guy appears at your door with food!
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke
(That's right, I've just lumped Pizza Hut and advertising in with magic and mind control. Let the wild internet rumors begin! Muwahaha!
)
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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So you are the one who knocked that price down! lol. It was a shockingly great run!
|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
No, no, you're not SAVING the customer money!
You're GOUGING THE EYES OUT OF ANOTHER MARKETEER by ruining their niche! Think of the marketeers... out with their children on a beautiful spring day... unable to catch a ball. Then look at your shiny white hat and ask yourself: Do I deserve it? Really? (... I just took someone's "Buy at 7, sell at 80" niche down to "Buy at 7, sell at 55". Maybe it woulda happened anyway. That's what I tell myself at night... lying in bed, not sleeping. Maybe.) |
Currently Playing:
A bunch of toons! (Freedom, Virtue, and a few on Infinity)
... so how's life with no depth perception? (I wasn't the only one, apparently; we had some stray individual list one under 60M, I think.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I miss the 24 hours where I sold 5 crafted reactive armor res/ends for 180mil each :\ Short, but sweet.
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
People want to pay more. You heard me correctly. They WANT to pay more. They may grouse a bit but it makes what they have a bit more special because they had to pay a hefty sum to get it. Never mind the fact that thousands of others also have it.
Why do I say this?
This past week I shifted a little away of crafting and selling generic IOs and picked up a few set IOs. Two of them were the Gaussian triple. I bought all of the salvage at pretty much buy it nao prices (less than 24 hours), crafted @ level 50, and posted for about 300,000 inf which is far below the actual cost to make them. One sold for 10m and the other for 11m and each took two days to sell.
I have also crafted and posted damage IOs at various levels and posted them for my cost plus 25% (market fees and the like) and have been paid as much as 1m inf for something that was posted at 75K inf. This happens time and time again.
They want to pay more. I know because they could be paying a lot less if they were to just to have a bit of patience.
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You say this as though 'ebil' is some kind of logical state. It's a circularly logical position borne entirely out of emotional frustration. It doesn't matter what you do, you're an ebil marketeer if you have more money than me, and if you have less money than me, you're a poor sap who I totally give money to to show off what a great guy I am while I list everything for 1 inf.
|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
You don't have to ebil to play the market, and a mutually beneficial arrangement can be had by both buyers and sellers.
|
Quote:
There are really are two parts to what you are calling "white hat" marketing:|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
There seems to be a common misperception that selling a crafted enhancement for more than the cost of its components and the value of the recipe is somehow taking advantage of another player.
One of the things I've noticed in my forays of playing the market is due to my knowledge of historical pricing, a willingness to look at the market interface (forgoing just playing the game) and patience, I am able to acquire recipes and salvage at far lower prices than many players can acquire it themselves. Further, due to crafting badges or discount crafting coupons, I can even assemble the disparate pieces more cheaply as well. I, of course, don't pass all these savings to a potential buyer, but I will list a crafted IO for a price which is often times significantly cheaper than if the player tried to get it on her own and didn't have a lot of time. I feel that the above is the essence of what I call 'White Hat Marketeerring'. In exchange for a modest markup, I am using my marketeering skills to provide a product at a reasonable price but saving a potential player a considerable amount of time and effort. Further, as a White Hat marketeer, I am satisified with modest amounts of profit. I have found that selling many things at modest markups quickly often times generates influence/infamy/information far faster than going for higher profit margins. I sell an item, make a modest profit, while you benefit by buying an item you want at a fair price. You don't have to ebil to play the market, and a mutually beneficial arrangement can be had by both buyers and sellers. |
1. You are saving people time by crafting the IO for them. That includes the time of getting the recipe, salvage and whatever badges lower the cost of creation (if applicable).
That is, you do the grunt work for them and charge them for your time.
2. You are using information and expertise about the market to get "good" values on recipes and salvage.
I think no one has a problem with #1. Some (not me) might have a problem with #2. It's not "fair" that you would charge so much for something you know can get for less.
However, my response is that #2 is just a form of number #1. It takes time and effort to learn the market. Furthermore it takes time (and sometimes inf as you lose bad bets) to keep up with market trends. The profit you make is, essentially, your "charge" for that time.
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Can you really be stating this as a generalization? What if these anecdotes were just coincidences where you happened to sell to fellow marketeers, farmers, power players, etc. who could afford to be too lazy or too rushed to bid creep?
|
Originally Posted by FallenValkyrja
People want to pay more. You heard me correctly. They WANT to pay more. They may grouse a bit but it makes what they have a bit more special because they had to pay a hefty sum to get it. Never mind the fact that thousands of others also have it.
Why do I say this? This past week I shifted a little away of crafting and selling generic IOs and picked up a few set IOs. Two of them were the Gaussian triple. I bought all of the salvage at pretty much buy it nao prices (less than 24 hours), crafted @ level 50, and posted for about 300,000 inf which is far below the actual cost to make them. One sold for 10m and the other for 11m and each took two days to sell. I have also crafted and posted damage IOs at various levels and posted them for my cost plus 25% (market fees and the like) and have been paid as much as 1m inf for something that was posted at 75K inf. This happens time and time again. They want to pay more. I know because they could be paying a lot less if they were to just to have a bit of patience. |
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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Allow me to point out that, in real life, people will hire other people to STAND ON LINE for them. Whether someone CAN do something for themselves is not the issue. It's whether they WANT to.
|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Let me pose this question:
Are you, the White Hat Marketeer, doing anything that someone couldn't potentially do in the first 10 minutes of playing the game? |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Interesting reactions. 
I put a definition of White Hat marketeering together mostly as a reaction to the thread about what ebil is. Now, you can certainly argue that ebil isn't really even "ebil" because the market is voluntary system. No one can be forced to buy anything and none of the goods for sale is absolutely required to play the game since things like IOs, costume recipes, temp powers are *optional* content.
However, even under those guidelines, I think there's room for a definition/philosophy of being a White Hatter. I think it mostly boils down to a) being service oriented in focusing on transactions that provide time savings - crafting b) making moderate profits (though you'd still make a lot over time).
That begs the question about what ebil really is. Personally, there's nothing I think is truly ebil but there are many activities that are misunderstood. Activities such as flipping can raise prices but at the same time prevent scarcity. Cornering the market on a piece of salvage can be used to make inf and cause aggravation to players (probably the most visible sign of market pvp), but most experienced marketeers avoid this since it requires a lot of maintenance/time, is only effective as a short term strategy and does not provide good returns for the amount of effort.
The two activities in question get the most non-Market forum reactions and seems to bring up the ire of players due to the fact that neither activity *seemingly* requires any "work". Nothing is built and sold through flipping, though you can certainly argue that it takes knowledge to both pull this off for a niche and to protect it long term. Cornering salvage requires a great deal of work - more work than many suspect, but to the unknowledgeable, it appears that someone or a cabal is making millions for almost no appreciable effort.
In regards to salvage flipping and cornering the market:
If the item in question is common (white), the supply of said salvage is so huge, that it is nearly impossible to "corner" any market there.
If the item is uncommon, there are ways other than the market to obtain these. For 80 AE tickets, you can purchase any one that you like.
If the item is rare, once again, a person can use AE tickets (540) to purchase it.
Aside from AE tickets, a person can use merits to purchase salvage.
There is no possible way to control/dominate a salvage niche. You can play them all day long, but you cannot dominate one. There are simply too many options for players to obtain one through other means.
If you "did" manage to dominate a single slot, you would have to find that magic price where people will no longer seek your item through other means and stay just under that.
Quote:
| People want to pay more. You heard me correctly. They WANT to pay more. They may grouse a bit but it makes what they have a bit more special because they had to pay a hefty sum to get it. Never mind the fact that thousands of others also have it. |
Quote:
| Can you really be stating this as a generalization? What if these anecdotes were just coincidences where you happened to sell to fellow marketeers, farmers, power players, etc. who could afford to be too lazy or too rushed to bid creep? |
I am running an experiment in regards to getting some start up money for the broad-scale marketeering.
I pick one kind of salvage, I bid 500 x 10 for them, and when I have 10, I sell them at 15,000 x 10.
Here is the evidence:
I can sit on this character at the market with the UI open. I can watch purchases roll in on one side while watching sales go out on the other. Often, and I mean often, these are happening at the same time. People are willingly paying more so they don't have to wait 1 whole minute.
Also, I do not list my salvage for 15,001 in hopes of forcing someone to bid higher. Its 15,000, period. A nice round number. A number a lot of people bid.
Yet, as I sit at the market giggling as people sell me salvage for 500 and other people purchase my listed salvage, I notice that a LOT of the sales I do are not for 15,000. They're 20,000, or 55,555, or even 123,123. There is no reason to bid those prices, yet here they are, bidding like fiends. I have 50 for sale people! They're ALL 15,000! Why bid 123,123?!
EDIT: I just got a badge. I did the math of total money made (easy, I started at 0 selling salvage) / total transactions. The AVERAGE purchase price for my salvage, which is listed at 15,000 is 35,186. This is more than double what I am asking for. Silly lazy people =P
People do in fact want to pay more.
Want a really fun example?
When I'm done playing a character for the night, I go to the market, open it up and dump every last piece of salvage I have on me, common, uncommon, AND rare for 1 inf. Its quick, its easy, and frankly, I have enough money. I see no need to "max out" my salvage returns on most of my characters. If its a character I marketeer on at all, I tend to keep the rares that fit the recipes that character is working on.
If I sell 40 pieces of salvage, I do not collect 40 inf the next day. I usually collect about 10mil depending on how many rares I listed.
10 million.
I listed these as low as I possibly could. Aside from tracking people down and giving them salvage, I cannot do any better for them. Really I can't.
Quote:
| Can you really be stating this as a generalization? What if these anecdotes were just coincidences where you happened to sell to fellow marketeers, farmers, power players, etc. who could afford to be too lazy or too rushed to bid creep? |
Yes. Yes we can make that generalization that people will in fact bid WAY more than they could for something because they can't be bothered to think for themselves.
"Gee, that item sells for 100,000,000. I should bid... 100,000,000. Not 50,000,000. Not 80,000,000 (to buy the marketeer's enhancement that low balled to sell faster). Nope, I should be a sheep and follow along. Bidding 100,000,000 - SOLD! Wow! Look at that! I got it right the first time!"
I bid creep. I am very tedious in my creeping. "Selling for 50 mil" means I start at 5 mil. Do I expect everyone to do this? Heck no! Do I expect people to think for themselves a tiny bit and take a shot in the dark at least once on an expensive item, you bet your backside I do.
Aside from people only bidding on enhancements, why is it that people never bother to look at the recipes?
Enhancement X: For sale: 1 Bidding: 43 - Last 5: 15-20 mil.
Recipe for Enhancement X: For sale: 57 Bidding: 0 - Last 5: 10-50k
People do know that you use recipes to make enhancements... right?
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| Edit: NSFW Here's an example of how people actually think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg |
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I used to do that. I don't bother anymore. I make inf so quickly that it's not worth it to save 50k, 500k, 5M or even sometimes 50M. I can literally make that back selling one crafted IO. It honestly doesn't bother me that I'm giving someone else profit.|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
I bid creep. I am very tedious in my creeping. "Selling for 50 mil" means I start at 5 mil. Do I expect everyone to do this? Heck no! Do I expect people to think for themselves a tiny bit and take a shot in the dark at least once on an expensive item, you bet your backside I do.
|
Further, I've given away billions to SG mates, friends and strangers. I've held billion inf costume contest (actually multiple times), given billions to SG mates for them to buy IOs, randomly gifted strangers 100M. It's all monopoly money at the end of the day, and I can make it back if I wanted to.
When I craft stuff, I usually grab salvage at the going rate too. I could care less if the Alchemical Silver I need is going for 250k. I'll grab them and craft an IO that's worth 5M. If I'm in penny pinching mood (i.e., on a brand new character), I'll lowball bid on the same salvage and usually get it after 10 mins at my price.
Im Lazy, I'll admit it.
When I want something I get it. I usually buy crafted IO's for my alts and mail it to them as they are leveling up. The toon I mail from, has the memorized badges for all IOs. I can easily save the money and craft, craft, craft. But, I dont mind speading the wealth around.
I do however get pissy at the seller, when Im up to around 600k for a common IO and still havent won the item because I know how much it cost. At that point on Cyber Morals I refuse to pay anymore and will craft it myself and hope they get stuck with it lol.
Those sellers are price gougers, lol. Ebil.
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Where's the fun in that? That's just crazy talk... |
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
You don't have to ebil to play the market, and a mutually beneficial arrangement can be had by both buyers and sellers.
|
Embrace the Ebil!!!
On a less tongue-in-cheek note, the only difference between the poor,
downtrodden masses, and the elitist ebil marketeers is about 10 minutes
of effort a day and enough knowledge to focus that effort effectively.
"Ebil" is only the term (and excuse) the first group applies to the second
when they can't be bothered to understand that the things they "think"
are regular occurrences are usually the least effective ways to make inf.
As for White Hat Marketing, I've no problem conceptually with that. On
the other hand, I value my own time, and my own knowledge and effort,
and *that* is what I charge for.
As noted, anybody can do what I do, but because they choose not to,
they buy from me - I willingly provide that "service", but I expect appropriate
compensation for my time and effort.
The fact that I get rich doing it is a validation of the concept - were I
overvaluing my services, it would become more worthwhile for people to
do it themselves and bypass my wares.
Clearly, somewhere in there is a balance area where I'm willing to sell and
they'd rather buy from me (ie. use my time and resources) than build it
themselves.
In reality, White Hat Marketing is a fiction. Especially in a Voluntary system.
In the same way, I'll pay the plumber to fix my toilet because I don't
want to deal with that crap myself (pun intended) - If the plumber were
more expensive than the convenience of avoiding the crap is worth to me, then .... I'd dig out the pipewrench and overalls, and fix the issue myself...
There's no altruism component required (or even involved) in the deal,
except as a pure rationalization on somebody's part.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Id like to apologize in here, too. The post by Misaligned is spot on. I do this. lol. Pay a few grand more for something just to not wait until i log back in to get it. Ive been farming AE so much lately and have seen HUGE differences in prices for the recipes and the crafted forms. Its almost silly. I had a recipe selling for like 15mil-30mil and crafted was hitting close to 80. Im glad i get Kin Coms and Numinas everyday to sell off.
If people choose to go that high, its on them. (i wont, lol) My wife was even saying that she should buy 10 recipes and craft them for the higher prices. I laughed so hard. She's an ebil flipper! Who knew?!?! lol.
What erks me more than anything isnt the flipping but the trying to corner the market and force higher prices. That's the greedy that i refer to in my previous posts. Just because it hurts everyone that likes to IO toons' gameplay. I doubt everyone that IO's toon also loves market pvp.
Anyways, sorry all for having a difference in opinions and playstyles. To each their own.
Quote:
Is that like selling an oak table for more than the cost of the wood involved is taking advantage of the person buying furniture? |
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
There seems to be a common misperception that selling a crafted enhancement for more than the cost of its components and the value of the recipe is somehow taking advantage of another player.
|
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
I hardly consider myself a marketeer, but I mostly sell things on the market and have a pretty nice stock of influence. Probably about 1.4 billion across all of my toons. I know a lot of people have a ton more, but for me that is probably more than I'll ever use. I love getting random recipe rolls, getting orange salvaged dropped and the occassional purple drop and I do try to maximize my profits from all my drops whether it means listing high and waiting it out or crafting a recipe and then selling that.
On the other hand when I am in a buying mood, I just pay the buy now prices as long as they are reasonable for what I want. I know without a doubt I can craft what I want or put in lower bids and get what I want later, but it just doesn't matter. I make money and I waste money at the market.
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lol!|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
... so how's life with no depth perception? (I wasn't the only one, apparently; we had some stray individual list one under 60M, I think.)
|
Well at least the price has bumped itself back up to 70
Now if i only hadn't been so generous with the other io in that set that has completely gone into orbit... oh well. Guess i willjust ahve to roll around in the inf that I have stored in a swimming pool (ala Scrooge McDuck)
Currently Playing:
A bunch of toons! (Freedom, Virtue, and a few on Infinity)
Quote:
I wonder if I could fix my toilet.
|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Where's the fun in that? That's just crazy talk...
Embrace the Ebil!!! On a less tongue-in-cheek note, the only difference between the poor, downtrodden masses, and the elitist ebil marketeers is about 10 minutes of effort a day and enough knowledge to focus that effort effectively. "Ebil" is only the term (and excuse) the first group applies to the second when they can't be bothered to understand that the things they "think" are regular occurrences are usually the least effective ways to make inf. As for White Hat Marketing, I've no problem conceptually with that. On the other hand, I value my own time, and my own knowledge and effort, and *that* is what I charge for. As noted, anybody can do what I do, but because they choose not to, they buy from me - I willingly provide that "service", but I expect appropriate compensation for my time and effort. The fact that I get rich doing it is a validation of the concept - were I overvaluing my services, it would become more worthwhile for people to do it themselves and bypass my wares. Clearly, somewhere in there is a balance area where I'm willing to sell and they'd rather buy from me (ie. use my time and resources) than build it themselves. In reality, White Hat Marketing is a fiction. Especially in a Voluntary system. In the same way, I'll pay the plumber to fix my toilet because I don't want to deal with that crap myself (pun intended) - If the plumber were more expensive than the convenience of avoiding the crap is worth to me, then .... I'd dig out the pipewrench and overalls, and fix the issue myself... There's no altruism component required (or even involved) in the deal, except as a pure rationalization on somebody's part. Regards, 4 |
Enjoy your day please.
There seems to be a common misperception that selling a crafted enhancement for more than the cost of its components and the value of the recipe is somehow taking advantage of another player.
One of the things I've noticed in my forays of playing the market is due to my knowledge of historical pricing, a willingness to look at the market interface (forgoing just playing the game) and patience, I am able to acquire recipes and salvage at far lower prices than many players can acquire it themselves. Further, due to crafting badges or discount crafting coupons, I can even assemble the disparate pieces more cheaply as well.
I, of course, don't pass all these savings to a potential buyer, but I will list a crafted IO for a price which is often times significantly cheaper than if the player tried to get it on her own and didn't have a lot of time.
I feel that the above is the essence of what I call 'White Hat Marketeerring'. In exchange for a modest markup, I am using my marketeering skills to provide a product at a reasonable price but saving a potential player a considerable amount of time and effort. Further, as a White Hat marketeer, I am satisified with modest amounts of profit. I have found that selling many things at modest markups quickly often times generates influence/infamy/information far faster than going for higher profit margins. I sell an item, make a modest profit, while you benefit by buying an item you want at a fair price.
You don't have to ebil to play the market, and a mutually beneficial arrangement can be had by both buyers and sellers.