how would you revamp the entire economy and reward structure?


BBQ_Pork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator View Post
Market caps create a true black market we've been over this ten thousand times. See: Pvp +3% defense

There is no such thing as too much inf.

I disagree.
Not to mention, if players can't hold enough of the game currency to be worth using, they end up making a currency of their own. That's what happened in Diablo 2, the amount of gold characters could hold was heavily capped so trades were often done in units of "SoJs". If currency was globally capped in CoH, players would just trade in units of LotG recharges or something, and the market would be used even less for high value items. Making it even harder for an average player to get their hands on high end items.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator View Post
Market caps create a true black market we've been over this ten thousand times. See: Pvp +3% defense

There is no such thing as too much inf.

I disagree.
I would cap my market not by an artifical number stopping you listing it higher, but by WW propping up the supply with unlimited IO's already available at that set price.

So assume I wanted to cap those 3% IO's at 1 billion, then anyone who bid 1 bil would get one instantly. Queue a drop in price. You would then also see a fall in demand, and I honestly wouldn't think the WW dude would be selling his own IO's for very long as I seriously suspect most of those bids on them IO's are people wanting to sell off market.

As for too much inf, in real life I might agree because you have family etc to pass it onto when you are gone, but in a game if you aren't going to be spending it, then no matter how easy the market is to play, every 5 mins spent earning more than you will spend is surely a wasted 5 mins? (Unless that is where you get your fun however, in which case it doesn't say much for the rest of the game!).


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Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

 

Posted

I'd add a magic flying pony that flies around dropping purple recipes, rare salvage & rainbow gumdrops on all the poor casual players...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
I'd add a magic flying pony that flies around pooping purple recipes, rare salvage & rainbow gumdrops on all the poor casual players...
Fixed!

It's only worth doing if BaBs can do a pooping animation for it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano View Post
(4) Go crazy and force all set IOs to exist only at the 5s and 0s like standard IOs
I'd go one step further.

Enhancements would not even have levels at all. The enhancement's tier would determine at what level they could be slotted (Level 1: Training, Common Invention; Level 12: Dual Origin, Uncommon Invention; Level 22: Single Origin, Rare Invention; Level 50: Ultra-rare Invention, Hamidon Origin). The enhancement bonus would be determined by your own level and the tier of the enhancement. No enhancements would ever become obsolete, but their effectiveness would be capped at a certain level.

I would then remove the salvage level tiers and mix up the recipes so that all salvage would potentially be useful at all levels.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

Posted

1) Change the AH to an open market system.
  • Pricing would have to be limited to two significant figures ( 2,200,000 would be ok, 2,199,999 would not be {this is to simplify the listings, as 4k individual prices would be a nightmare for shoppers.} ).
  • Bids would have an eight day decay.
  • Daily transaction limit.
Flipping would still be possible, but those huge discounts would disappear. Also, large volume flipping would become obvious even to those not familiar with the market. [ I do realize that this would be unpopular with most market players. My answer: It's your turn to get ripped a new one ]

2) Adjust vendor supply of items to help reduce inflation.
  • Adjust random roll cost (in merits and AE tickets)
  • New pool A recipes that make complete sets with out the need for drops from other pools. Set bonuses would be suitably mild. Sort of a half-way point between regular IO's and current sets. These would also be available at university work tables and priced accordingly.
  • Add merit prices to recipes available at the university.
3) Actually listen to other suggestions, once my first changes settled out. [ Reasoned arguments only. I'm sure there would be plenty of novel (and crude) suggestions. That would be wai. ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
I'd add a magic flying pony that flies around dropping purple recipes, rare salvage & rainbow gumdrops on all the poor casual players...
FYI: The Dev's already did this, they're called tip missions.Then there's AE tickets and merits. I do hope I'm not giving out any secrets.


 

Posted

I'd merge the markets.

Oh wait!


Other improvements that would be helpful- raise the inf cap. With the ability to email inf to ourselves it is a purely artificial constraint that should be eliminated.

Since they won't get rid of merits entirely (my preference) allow users to choose the level of the recipe they roll for and eliminate the ability to buy specific recipes. This would go a long way to improving sub-max level supply.

Add more inf sinks. The problem isn't too much inf, it's not enough stuff to spend it on. My favorite suggestion is a badge that costs 2 billion inf.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
1) Change the AH to an open market system.
  • Pricing would have to be limited to two significant figures ( 2,200,000 would be ok, 2,199,999 would not be {this is to simplify the listings, as 4k individual prices would be a nightmare for shoppers.} ).
  • Bids would have an eight day decay.
  • Daily transaction limit.
Flipping would still be possible, but those huge discounts would disappear. Also, large volume flipping would become obvious even to those not familiar with the market. [ I do realize that this would be unpopular with most market players. My answer: It's your turn to get ripped a new one ]
Flippers raise the price floor and lower the price ceiling by assuring supply.
Players don't care if someone is getting a cut as long as they can buy whatever they want when they want it. Well, except for a few fringe cases.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Flippers raise the price floor and lower the price ceiling by assuring supply.
Players don't care if someone is getting a cut as long as they can buy whatever they want when they want it. Well, except for a few fringe cases.
Very vocal fringe cases...

But that is exactly why I am going to have many characters sit on the new alignment merits so when one of my characters wants X if it isn't for sale I can go get one. Now!


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

SargentWild said: (emphasis mine)

Quote:
New pool A recipes that make complete sets with out the need for drops from other pools. Set bonuses would be suitably mild. Sort of a half-way point between regular IO's and current sets. These would also be available at university work tables and priced accordingly.
... you mean, like Focused Smite, Smashing Haymaker, Cleaving Blow, Multi-Strike, Maelstrom's Fury, Ruin, Airburst, Detonation, Serendipity, Red Fortune, Harmonized Healing, Reactive Armor, Titanium Coating, Essence of Curare, and all the other wonderful cheap sets on this page?

Yeah, I love those guys too!


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@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
Flipping would still be possible, but those huge discounts would disappear. Also, large volume flipping would become obvious even to those not familiar with the market. [ I do realize that this would be unpopular with most market players. My answer: It's your turn to get ripped a new one ]
The people that this would hurt would be the people who don't want to spend all their time on the market, and just want to get some enhancements and move on.

If you think flippers do anything but move prices towards the middle of their range, you need to go back and learn some basic economics. This is not rocket science; it's very simple, very straightforward. Flippers drive the lowest prices up and the highest prices down, consistently. Take that away, and prices fluctuate even more wildly, and many more items will stop being on the market at all for days or weeks at a time.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
The people that this would hurt would be the people who don't want to spend all their time on the market, and just want to get some enhancements and move on.

If you think flippers do anything but move prices towards the middle of their range, you need to go back and learn some basic economics. This is not rocket science; it's very simple, very straightforward. Flippers drive the lowest prices up and the highest prices down, consistently. Take that away, and prices fluctuate even more wildly, and many more items will stop being on the market at all for days or weeks at a time.
Just how does buying low and selling high drive prices down? Not sure my math works the same as yours! Currently Alchemy Silver is running at a high price, even though inventory is comparable to lower prices. Sure, a certain amount of momentum exists in a market. But this trend jumped the market merge. Sell your BS to some one who's buying.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
SargentWild said: (emphasis mine)


... you mean, like Focused Smite, Smashing Haymaker, Cleaving Blow, Multi-Strike, Maelstrom's Fury, Ruin, Airburst, Detonation, Serendipity, Red Fortune, Harmonized Healing, Reactive Armor, Titanium Coating, Essence of Curare, and all the other wonderful cheap sets on this page?

Yeah, I love those guys too!
Ok, my mistake. I figured that since most of these sets are hard to get in a short time frame (1-2 weeks) at reasonable prices, they had recipes in other pools. Guess I have more reason to dislike market flippers.

Note: I'm fine with paying 30k to 50k for mid level set recipes. Any thing higher usually gets ignored. This attitude is mostly due to high prices on some ingredients. Cheaper ingredients would mean more money for recipes. I should also mention that I won't be getting a single set recipe for my 50 through the market, I'm using merits and AE tickets only.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
Just how does buying low and selling high drive prices down? Not sure my math works the same as yours! Currently Alchemy Silver is running at a high price, even though inventory is comparable to lower prices. Sure, a certain amount of momentum exists in a market. But this trend jumped the market merge. Sell your BS to some one who's buying.
Perhaps if you gave an example of what you think a flipper does we could point out why you are arriving at the incorrect conclusion?

All I can tell you is in order for a flipper to profit he has to sell it for more than it will cost him including fees plus it has to be worth it in either time to flip or profit per market slot.

Using your example of Alchemical Silver:
Last night I placed my 2 AlSil drops on the market and they instantly sold (as I desired by where I put my list price) for 50k each.

Now do you believe the flippers are buying it at 50k and relisting it at 50k or even 60k and waiting for a sale? Or is it more likely someone who is not a flipper put out their max price willing to pay of 50k and were waiting for someone like me to list it lower than that so they could buy it?

Now if you really believe it went to a flipper at 50k that flipper is either a flipping idiot or just likes to get rid of his inf. A smart flipper would likely have bids out in the 1-19k range and relist at 41-45k range (for example he might list it at 45,003 to not get plucked by a 45k bid and count on someone not bid creeping and just bidding 50k).


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
Perhaps if you gave an example of what you think a flipper does we could point out why you are arriving at the incorrect conclusion?

All I can tell you is in order for a flipper to profit he has to sell it for more than it will cost him including fees plus it has to be worth it in either time to flip or profit per market slot.

Using your example of Alchemical Silver:
Last night I placed my 2 AlSil drops on the market and they instantly sold (as I desired by where I put my list price) for 50k each.

Now do you believe the flippers are buying it at 50k and relisting it at 50k or even 60k and waiting for a sale? Or is it more likely someone who is not a flipper put out their max price willing to pay of 50k and were waiting for someone like me to list it lower than that so they could buy it?

Now if you really believe it went to a flipper at 50k that flipper is either a flipping idiot or just likes to get rid of his inf. A smart flipper would likely have bids out in the 1-19k range and relist at 41-45k range (for example he might list it at 45,003 to not get plucked by a 45k bid and count on someone not bid creeping and just bidding 50k).

You're like me, sell smart. Lets face it, not every one who posts to the market is that smart. They think auction, so list very low. Say any where in the range of 10 to 10k, because that is what sells first. Marketers scoop these up with blanket bids at, say 11k. They then turn around, post these at 60k. Artificially limiting low cost availability of an item by creating a high cost inventory only the "now" purchasers can access.

If you have another reason for high prices combined with high volume, I'm all ears. Or, other methods of flipping (you can just link if you know of some thing).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
You're like me, sell smart. Lets face it, not every one who posts to the market is that smart. They think auction, so list very low. Say any where in the range of 10 to 10k, because that is what sells first. Marketers scoop these up with blanket bids at, say 11k. They then turn around, post these at 60k. Artificially limiting low cost availability of an item by creating a high cost inventory only the "now" purchasers can access.

If you have another reason for high prices combined with high volume, I'm all ears. Or, other methods of flipping (you can just link if you know of some thing).

Then answer my question. Who paid 50k for my Alchemical Silvers when I listed them for 11? Not 11k. 11.

Reason for high prices? Demand. If it were just flippers anything and everything would be pushed up not just the most relatively valuable items.

The drop rate for Alchemical Silver is identical to any of the other 5 arcane commons why is it the highest? It is used in the more useful recipes. This increases its demand. That increases its price.

Your fictional scenario is not what a flipper does. Like all conspiracy theories it works in the theorist's mind only. If the flippers are listing them at 60k who are they selling to when mine sell immediately for 50k?


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
Just how does buying low and selling high drive prices down?
On the average, it has little effect on prices -- it just evens them out. Actually, that's not true. Since every transaction takes 10% of the transferred inf out of the market, ALL trading of ANY SORT WHATSOEVER drives prices down.

But more specifically, it averages prices, mostly. Buying low increases demand on the low end, which means people are more likely to auction something instead of vendoring it. Selling high increases supply on the high end, which drives prices down. On something that everyone's gonna sell anyway, this just evens prices out. On something that people would otherwise likely just vendor, though, it can increase total real supply, thus reducing prices a bit.

Here's the thing. Say something is currently really valuable -- it sells for 100M inf. That means it's a good candidate for "sell high". So all the flippers start looking for ways to get it, and listing it. But if they all list at 100M inf, they create a situation where there's a lot up for sale and not enough bidders. So people come in and say "geeze, 100M's huge, why don't I list at 95M and get a quick sale". And eventually the price goes down -- if there really is enough supply.

Flipping can't create a sustained rise in prices. It can create a sustained fall. Most often, though, it just moves things towards the middle of the range.

Quote:
Currently Alchemy Silver is running at a high price, even though inventory is comparable to lower prices. Sure, a certain amount of momentum exists in a market. But this trend jumped the market merge.
Of course it did. Alchemical silver is more desireable. It's necessary for a number of high-demand IOs. Therefore, it's worth more. 50k inf or so seems about right to me; it's a core component in a lot of recipes that are in high demand. I know this because every time I decide to get a character set up with a bunch of frankenslotted IOs around level 25-30, I end up needing at least a stack of alchemical silver, and rarely more than five or ten of anything else. On the other hand, it drops less often than, say, brass or clockwork winders.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
You're like me, sell smart. Lets face it, not every one who posts to the market is that smart. They think auction, so list very low. Say any where in the range of 10 to 10k, because that is what sells first. Marketers scoop these up with blanket bids at, say 11k. They then turn around, post these at 60k. Artificially limiting low cost availability of an item by creating a high cost inventory only the "now" purchasers can access.
This is not how markets work. Here's the thing. Say you don't wanna pay 60k -- you wanna pay 25k. You bid 25k.

You will ALWAYS get your bid filled before the alleged Evil Flipper bid at 11k, because yours is higher. And highest bid always wins.

So the flipper can never "scoop" all the low prices if you put in bids anywhere above their notion of "low". You will always get dibs.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
Then answer my question. Who paid 50k for my Alchemical Silvers when I listed them for 11? Not 11k. 11.

Reason for high prices? Demand. If it were just flippers anything and everything would be pushed up not just the most relatively valuable items.

The drop rate for Alchemical Silver is identical to any of the other 5 arcane commons why is it the highest? It is used in the more useful recipes. This increases its demand. That increases its price.

Your fictional scenario is not what a flipper does. Like all conspiracy theories it works in the theorist's mind only. If the flippers are listing them at 60k who are they selling to when mine sell immediately for 50k?
Any person who bid less than the flippers price. If, as a flipper, I have a stack for sale at 60k. It sits there till its the lowest price.

some examples.

1k items posted at 60k by flippers
1k bids posted at 11k by flippers
10 items posted at 50k by smart sellers.
10 bids posted at 45k by smart buyers.

All sale prices are above all of the bid prices resulting in no sale. It does however, create a market where some one can post a sale at <45k for an immediate sale, or purchase order at >50k for an immediate purchase. Actual prices would be all over the place, this example just shows how the sealed bid system can be used to lock in high prices, while smart strategy can still manage to make an immediate sale. The flippers inventory won't move until smart supply hits 0. Some thing that can easily happen during peak play times.

Like I said to Seeps, don't try to sell me any BS, I ain't buying. I've been around long enough, and followed more than a few threads in this very forum. And no, I'm not going to dig them up for you.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
Just how does buying low and selling high drive prices down?
flippers need to undercut the 'going rate' if they want to move their junk, that's how.

Trying to push the price of high volume items higher is a fool's errand. Flippers rely on turnover to earn worthwhile amounts of inf, tying up slots with stuff that's overpriced renders the entire exercise futile.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Re: Flipping

I am a flipper of salvage. I have a lovely little niche where I purchase 1 kind of uncommon salvage and then turn around and sell that salvage for 30x what I paid for it.

Here's the catch - I'm buying salvage while I'm selling it. POP! Just bought one. 10 seconds later: POP! Just sold one!

Flipping on the scale so as to price fix, as so many people believe is happening here, is impossible. Limited market slots assure that.

Even if you assume that someone is using ALL of their market slots to do this on say... 10 characters, 5 of them are bidding and 5 are selling. Or, they're all using 1/2 of their slots for both. This allows for (at least) 100 x 10 for bidding and 100 x 10 for selling.

Using Alchemical Silver as an example:

Bid price: 50,000
Sell Price: 100,000

Let's assume for some weird reason that this person can flip every spot on every character every day.

That's 1,000 sales a day (good demand!) and 1,000 purchases a day (good supply!)

This person eats 10,000 per sale in fees, so actual profit is 40,000 per sale.

You find my numbers realistic?

I don't. But let's run with it!

This person now makes 40,000,000 a day flipping this. Divide that out by the 10 characters he's using and you're down to 4,000,000 a day profit per character. At this rate, even pooling money, it will take 50 days to hit the inf cap for 1 character. Clearly this is how the rich get richer.


I can make 40 mil a day using 16 slots. I can do this on 1 character with less time invested. Its a whole lot easier and frankly, the returns are insanely better.

Making money on salvage is probably the slowest way to make money on the market aside from a straight marketeering type perspective. Controlling a single item's supply and price fixing it is a nightmare, and even IF you were willing to invest the obscene amount of time in doing it, your returns would be pitiful.

Everyone seems to forget that "most" of the salvage on the market was dumped there by someone who does not play the market. They see the last 5 at 100k and so they list theirs at 100k. OR they see the last 5 at 101 and they list theirs for 101. Most people don't actually care enough to keep a mental inventory of what everything is actually worth.


Re: Changing the market -

I'd like to see 2 things:

1 - Sales capped at 30 days. No refund on the listing fee. This may cause people to consider a bit more carefully when listing low supply low demand items for obscene amounts.

2 - Adjust reward merits to actually be in line with A-Merits. Right now, if we compare apples to apples:

1 A-Merit is 5 recipes
20 Reward Merits is 1 recipe

Therefore, 100 Reward merits = 1 A-Merit

A-Merits can be done solo, and on your time. They can also be done considerably faster than an equal number of TFs or Arcs.

I think a reduction of about 25-50% on reward merit costs would go a long way towards balancing this.

Also, while we're reducing the cost of Reward Merit rolls and recipes, let's make them universal in price like the A-Merits. Why is a Numina Proc 250 merits when a LotG is 200? They both cost 2 A-Merits afaik.

I would like to agree that I think you should be allowed to roll at any random level. A slider for this would be huge!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
Like I said to Seeps, don't try to sell me any BS, I ain't buying. I've been around long enough, and followed more than a few threads in this very forum. And no, I'm not going to dig them up for you.

I'm not but since you are impervious to logic there is no point in dialoging with you or reading any more of your drivel.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
Any person who bid less than the flippers price. If, as a flipper, I have a stack for sale at 60k. It sits there till its the lowest price.
Flippers don't want things "sitting there", they want them turning over.
Which they ensure by pricing behind the curve, not ahead of it.

I suggest you go out and flip something before lecturing actual flippers about how it "really works".


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post
Just how does buying low and selling high drive prices down? Not sure my math works the same as yours! Currently Alchemy Silver is running at a high price, even though inventory is comparable to lower prices. Sure, a certain amount of momentum exists in a market. But this trend jumped the market merge. Sell your BS to some one who's buying.
You can't buy below people's listings, and you can't sell above what people will pay. Anyone who wants to beat a flipper can buy for a price 1 inf above the flipper's buy price, if they just have the patience that the flipper has.

I just pulled three things that sat, overpriced, for a month.

This isn't the first time I've bet wrong and sat on inventory for a considerable length of time.

So, why does your ignorance trump my actual experience?


Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentWild View Post

Like I said to Seeps, don't try to sell me any BS, I ain't buying. I've been around long enough, and followed more than a few threads in this very forum. And no, I'm not going to dig them up for you.
I wonder why so many people have so much against high prices. It does not mean you have to buy at those prices, it means in more cases that you can sell at those prices and buy for less. Why aren't people happy?

Also, if you're bothered about paying 50k for a common salvage you clearly haven't marketeered enough to make any serious income. I occasionally pay 1mil for a common salvage if I just WANT. IT. NAO! 1mil isn't much, really. You can't even get full SOs for that on a level 50.


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