Superman Returns-belated "Fridge Logic"
By
Alpha-One,
Posted on: 2010-09-13 14:37 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
I've always felt that Kryptonians (and, by extension, Daxamites) have some powers even under a red sun. After all, Kryptonians are able to move around on a planet whose gravity is much higher than ours, so they have at least low-grade superstrength.
I don't know if this is reflected in more modern comics, but Silver Age Superman's powers were clearly not just limited to our sun. He was roughly half as powerful under an orange sun and roughly twice as powerful under a blue sun. If you extrapolate that out, you have to assume that the closer he gets to a star, the more powerful he becomes. Power levels are determined by distance to the star and how hot the star is.
Of course, this is not supported by canon, but I used the idea in a DC Heroes RPG I GM'd a number of years ago.
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
Let's ignore many of the more talked-about flaws of Superman Returns for a moment. Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I was struck by this only this past weekend:
If Superman is super thanks to our sun, how did he fly outside of our solar system to the ruins of Krypton and survive? Did anyone else catch that? Seems like a bigger flaw than super-baby. |
When I see posts like this, I think of Terry Pratchett and how he described how light works in a magic field.
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An observer on some suitable high point, let's say for the sake of argument a wisp of cirrostratus on the edge of space, would remark on how lovingly the light spreads across the land, how it leaps forward on the plains and slows down when it encounters high ground. Actually, there are some kinds of observers who, faced with all this beauty, will whine that you can't have heavy light and certainly wouldn't be able to see it, even if you could. To which one can only reply, so how come you're standing on a cloud? ~Terry Pratchett "Equal Rites" |
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that's in comics. What I said is based on what I can remember of what is said in the first Cristopher Reeve movie which is cannon in the Superman Returns so...|
Originally Posted by Veritech
did a double check using the wiki article, and it pointed me at the DC wiki, which confirmed some of these bits. seems Krypton was in the Milky Way Galaxy, only 50 light years from earth. It moved temporarily to the Andromeda Galaxy during Birthright (and i guess it was in another galaxy during the Silver Age, so for the movies it mightve been in another galaxy as well) and has since been put back in place, and is actually in space sector 2813 (the one right next to the sector including earth).
as for how advanced Kryptonian culture was, they were up there, but i dont think they were ever really considered among the most advanced. they were just among the most vicious since they learned early on that exposure to different suns had varying effects on their physiology. |
I have ran across some continuities that Krypton has actually been gone for thousands of years and the ship travels at relativistic speeds which is why Clark was only and toddler when he was found and not a grownup...actually I think that is the movie cannon >.> but i can't remember. Quick someone look up Jor-El's talking during the Superman movie... That should answer everything!
Just to clear up the ship business from the movie: There's a whole scene (amongst a few that some fans are wanting in a director's cut of the movie) that explicitly shows Superman in said ship having flown back to Krypton. The ship is vastly bigger than the one that's carried him to Earth as a child, and suggests that he's grown a new ship or constructed one thanks to the knowledge crystals that are in the Fortress.
I do want to love the movie so much and even own it as part of a box set a friend got me of all the Superman movies to date. But....I love bits of it, most notably the airliner/shuttle rescue sequence. Where was that for the rest of the film instead of Super-Stalker and his whiny kid of doom? 
But y'know...Singer went off and made Valkyrie with Tom Cruise, so.....
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
Well, see, what happened is, even though he traveled really fast the trip to Krypton took a long <bleep!> time, there and back, and when he finally got back to Earth, well, everybody he knew was long since dead!
So he flew around the planet backwards really really really fast until he was within five years of his departure, which seemed reasonable.
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
Well, see, what happened is, even though he traveled really fast the trip to Krypton took a long <bleep!> time, there and back, and when he finally got back to Earth, well, everybody he knew was long since dead!
So he flew around the planet backwards really really really fast until he was within five years of his departure, which seemed reasonable. |
Which begs the question... Why doesn't Superman turn back time and be like "Dude, I'm from the future. The planet is going to blow up, get off the planet."
OK, here's another plot problem with Superman Returns:
In Supes II, Lois and Clark "do the deed," while Clark is unpowered. Then he gets his powers back (after being told that he lost them forever, but nevermind about that), and then gives Lois the "Amnesia Kiss" power that came out of nowhere.
Five years later, he comes back and Lois has a kid. Thanks to the "kiss," Lois has no idea where the Kid came from. During the course of "Superman Returns," she learns that the kid is Superman's . . . which means that they had sex sometime and she doesn't remember it. As far as she knows, Superman ***** her while she was unconscious, and then left the planet. So, as far as Lois is concerned, Supes is a rapist and a deadbeat dad. Don't you think she would be a little upset about that?
<Hoping that Chris Nolan can make the first Superman film without stupid plot holes big enough to drive a Space Shuttle through. Even the first two "Donner" films had horrible plot holes.>
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
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Well, he can't do that because by the time he gets to Krypton, she'll be rising. She'll find the note he left hanging on her door... er... I mean, he'll be out of yellow sun-powered superiosity and his crystal ship, while really fast, isn't really really really fast.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
>.>
Which begs the question... Why doesn't Superman turn back time and be like "Dude, I'm from the future. The planet is going to blow up, get off the planet." |
Now, I suppose he could fly really really really fast around Earth to reach the appropriate past time, but oops, his ship won't be there anymore! Unless of course he carries it with him while he is flying really really really fast around the planet, but even then the risk may be too great as it could lead to a 'McFly' type incident in which his mother develops a crush on him and as a result doesn't go to the 'Under the Two Moons' dance with his father, which would be really really really bad.
Perhaps if he went even further back in time - still, the risk of becoming his own grandpa remains a problem. Maybe he should speak with Batman about this.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
>.>
Which begs the question... Why doesn't Superman turn back time and be like "Dude, I'm from the future. The planet is going to blow up, get off the planet." |
Grandfather paradox.
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Well he was never really a rapist because she consented to have sex with him at the time.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
OK, here's another plot problem with Superman Returns:
In Supes II, Lois and Clark "do the deed," while Clark is unpowered. Then he gets his powers back (after being told that he lost them forever, but nevermind about that), and then gives Lois the "Amnesia Kiss" power that came out of nowhere. Five years later, he comes back and Lois has a kid. Thanks to the "kiss," Lois has no idea where the Kid came from. During the course of "Superman Returns," she learns that the kid is Superman's . . . which means that they had sex sometime and she doesn't remember it. As far as she knows, Superman ***** her while she was unconscious, and then left the planet. So, as far as Lois is concerned, Supes is a rapist and a deadbeat dad. Don't you think she would be a little upset about that? <Hoping that Chris Nolan can make the first Superman film without stupid plot holes big enough to drive a Space Shuttle through. Even the first two "Donner" films had horrible plot holes.> |
It's more like some folks had sex but one of them bumped their head and lost their short term memory of it, only it was the other person who knocked em on the head.
>.>
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
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Wizard did it.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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IIRC, he took a ship. Maybe the one that got him to earth when he was a baby... Not sure how that worked as it was a pretty small ship, but eh. I couldn't fly himself to krypton anyways, they had a red sun, assuming he had enough energy stored in his cells to get past the voids of space were any kind of star light was weak, and assuming all the suns and stars from here to krypton could power him anyways, (yellow ones) once he got close to Kryptons red sun, he'd lose his powers and die in a vacume. I'd assuming anyways, that's how it's works in MOST comics, red sun = instant power loss. |
Originally Posted by Gehnen
Let's ignore many of the more talked-about flaws of Superman Returns for a moment. Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I was struck by this only this past weekend:
If Superman is super thanks to our sun, how did he fly outside of our solar system to the ruins of Krypton and survive? Did anyone else catch that? Seems like a bigger flaw than super-baby. |
Of course, that isn't ALWAYS true as he and superman from earth 2 flew superprime THREW kryptons red sun to distoy his armor in that horid infinite crisis story they told a while back... this being right after the explained how the red sunlight striped supermans powers in a comicbook where he get a red sunlight watch form batman to help Chris Kent fit in on earth with normal kids.... yeah...
Then, doen't even get me started on his "magic" weakness and plotholes that brings up...
But hey, it's a comic book, or in this case, a comic book movie. Logic is subjective in comic books.
(as in, subject to the will of the dude writing the story at the time.)
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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I, admit i haven't watch Return in a LONG time, and only seen it once, but i got the impression she sure enough did rememeber doing Sups at some point. Maybe his amniesisa kiss is more like a memory editing kiss... as in, she remember everything that happened in Superman 2, just can't connect the fact it was Clark and not superman at the time... *shrug* |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
OK, here's another plot problem with Superman Returns:
In Supes II, Lois and Clark "do the deed," while Clark is unpowered. Then he gets his powers back (after being told that he lost them forever, but nevermind about that), and then gives Lois the "Amnesia Kiss" power that came out of nowhere. Five years later, he comes back and Lois has a kid. Thanks to the "kiss," Lois has no idea where the Kid came from. During the course of "Superman Returns," she learns that the kid is Superman's . . . which means that they had sex sometime and she doesn't remember it. As far as she knows, Superman ***** her while she was unconscious, and then left the planet. So, as far as Lois is concerned, Supes is a rapist and a deadbeat dad. Don't you think she would be a little upset about that? <Hoping that Chris Nolan can make the first Superman film without stupid plot holes big enough to drive a Space Shuttle through. Even the first two "Donner" films had horrible plot holes.> |
I have a LONG list of reasons i hate Return, a long long list, i'll gladly rant about if you'd like me too.
But i warn you, it'll be poorly worded, with broken grammer, and filled with hate. So... you've been warned. heh.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Because there's no planet to fly around!
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Originally Posted by Durakken
>.>
Which begs the question... Why doesn't Superman turn back time and be like "Dude, I'm from the future. The planet is going to blow up, get off the planet." |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Yes, sorta.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Because there's no planet to fly around!
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1: If the "thousands of years" thing is correct, relative positioning of the Rao system would be VASTLY different than that of the positioning displacement of earth during the, shall we say, "hour" that it was turned back. If he was able to start, sooner or later the spatial displacement of the planet moving back through time would have probably tossed him out of the gravity well as the planet receded into the past.
2: If this kind of time distortion is only possibly in a gravity well of planet-size and larger, there may not have been enough left of Krypton to do this with.
3: Red sun. Superman was performing his time manipulations within the confines of a star system populated with a yellow sun, one that gave him his powers.
4: Because of 3, he probably couldn't have kept up the necessary "super" levels long enough, ESPECIALLY if the "thousands of years" thing is true. And, while the ship was more convenient, probably wouldn't have been able to keep up with stresses and power requirements laid upon it.
I could go on, but four bullet points is geeky enough.
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If he *did* do that, it would turn out that no one believed him but Jor-El, and thus Superman would merely end up being responsible for saving himself. In other words, it ultimately wouldn't change anything.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
>.>
Which begs the question... Why doesn't Superman turn back time and be like "Dude, I'm from the future. The planet is going to blow up, get off the planet." |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Damn that magazine! And it's little InQuest too!
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Originally Posted by Starflier
Wizard did it.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
I see. So the ship that carried him here as an infant is entirely operational, and suits his adult size just fine.
Five years of oxygen (or whatever the heck he breathes naturally when not powered by our sun), food, water, all in what is an escape pod. I know I'm digging a little far on what's supposed to just be fun, but even comic movies shouldn't test the limits of my suspension of disbelief this far. |
Your disbelief suspended by the ship issue?! Really?! You do realize you're talking about super hero movies here. You take no issue with the man being able to fly etc but you take issue with his ship?! He could have modified it! He could have made stops along the way! Yikes. NEXT!
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Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
Actually, wouldn't it have taken only 2 1/2 years to reach it, then 2 1/2 years back, for a grand total of 5 years?
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Actually it the whole trip was only supposed to take 2 years roundtrip. But he ran into a drunk Lobo at a spacebar and got challenged to a race around 2 nearby solar systems. After winning that race and finally visiting Krypton he all set to return home when he realized that Agent Orange stole his spaceship (he still swears the ship is his) so he had to go track him down and get it back. Then he had to give the Female Furies a lift back to Apokolips and Darkseid tried to kill him... like usual.
So would've been home sooner but stuff happens when you're a Superhero.
I'm pretty sure all of that will be in the Director's Uncut Extended Edition.
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His powers are explained away because he's powered by our sun. Fine! He travels light-years away from the sun that gives him powers in a ship that barely contained him as an toddler in the first film. |
Originally Posted by TheJazMan
Your disbelief suspended by the ship issue?! Really?! You do realize you're talking about super hero movies here. You take no issue with the man being able to fly etc but you take issue with his ship?! He could have modified it! He could have made stops along the way! Yikes. NEXT!
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So maybe I went too far claiming it pushed my suspencion of disbelief. I'm not on a crusade...it's just one of those "WTF?" moments. The rest of us are having fun, maybe you'd like to join in?
Not to mention if we apply the regular DCU Krypton is one of the most advanced cultures in all of the DCU... They're power apparently rivals that of the gods and guardians and such...
as for how advanced Kryptonian culture was, they were up there, but i dont think they were ever really considered among the most advanced. they were just among the most vicious since they learned early on that exposure to different suns had varying effects on their physiology.