Which power sets have the best unique mechanics?
By
Carnifax_NA,
Posted on: 2010-08-17 13:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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IMO, Dual Pistol's swap ammo power, causes the set to give up too much raw power in exchange for not enough utility. The long animations and low damage, long recharge, PBAoE nuke make playing the set as a blaster problematic, though for defenders and corruptors I'd place it at just slightly below average.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Frost
Three of the new power sets Duel Pistols with ammo swamp, Electric Control with chained powers, and Kenetic Melee with its Siphon all have new and slightly different mechanics to help set the power sets appart rather then just the normal same powers/different secondary effect that some sets have.
My question is what do you think of these mechanics and which do you think is the most fun/best mechanic? |
Siphon I think I like. KB powers in general don't bother me so much but I know that a lot of players are unhappy with having yet another melee set for armored ATs with KB powers instead of KD or KU. It might be nice if the devs made an internal rule that melee sets for scrappers, tanks, brutes, and stalkers be made with mag .7 KB max. (Secondary power sets for blasters should retain their KB) Any player that wishes to have knockback can always slot it for additional KB mag. Other than that the only thing that is a problem with Kin melee is the longish animation on all the top tier powers. That's not a huge deal on an armored melee class though.
I'd have to say that the chaining aspect of electric control is a weakness rather than a strength. For a squishy class like controllers and dominators having an AoE control power fail completely (which it will do at least 1 application in 20) is a problem that will be hard to accommodate especially since the power(s) aren't any better or stronger to off set that. IME electric control is a solid contender for least controlling AND least damaging control set. Edging Gravity out of it's long established place at the bottom.
Out of all the new power sets I will not play a DP or Elec control on Live. They do not fit any of my various play styles and I won't adapt my play styles to accommodate the new sets. That would not be fun. Kin Melee is interesting. I'll probably make a Kin/SR scrapper on live and see how it goes. Even though I am much more of a blaster/controller player than a scrapper player.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I know we're just dealing with opinions. I'm not the appointed flag waver for Electric Control, but I'm forced to respond here before this can gain roots. Electric is a low damage set, but the lowest? No. Nor is the comparison to Gravity really valid. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
IME electric control is a solid contender for least controlling AND least damaging control set. Edging Gravity out of it's long established place at the bottom.
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A lot has been said about the chaining issue and the fact that it can miss a group 1 in 20 times. What is not said is that the recharge time of the chaining powers is very low. Synaptic Overload is a non-aggro AoE confuse on a base sixty second recharge. It does have a 1 in 20 chance to miss. However it also recharges 4 times faster than Mass Confusion. The odds of it missing all 4 times are not 5% (1 in 20) but 0.000625%. Meanwhile the odds of Mass Confusion ever recharging faster than in about 60 seconds are zero.
Seriously, the power is a ranged Seeds of Confusion that does not cause aggro! Read that again and let it sink in. For the price of missing less than one percent of the time compared to the timetable of Mass Confusion, and missing 5 percent of the time on the timetable of Seeds, you get the a ranged non-aggroing AoE mezz on the same Recharge as Mind's Control's sleep power. The odds to hit 16 enemies are exactly the same as any other power. The only downside is that it will sometimes not work. And if that happens, the enemies aren't the wiser, and even if they are the power is back up in 30 seconds on an average build, and 13 on an IOed one. It may not be your cup of tea, but to say this set is worse than Gravity is, IMO, taking it way too far.
As for Jolting Chains: it's just ok. But it's also just one power. Fire has Bonfire and Plant has Spirit Tree and that one power is "just ok" but not proof those sets are broken.
I love Dual Pistols, but I hate Swap Ammo.
They say flat-out that they reduced the set's secondary effect power in exchange for it. (Even though it's "optional" and not everyone will even have it)
It makes no logical or thematic sense. (swapping out special magical bullets that you never see, ever, in any of those films or comics that inspired it?)
It's completely lame, and it ruins the appearance of the set.
I hate it.
They could at least let us color the bullet effects created by it.
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I believe that you are simplyfing this far too much and you have also left out some important information, possibly to make the set look better than it is.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I know we're just dealing with opinions. I'm not the appointed flag waver for Electric Control, but I'm forced to respond here before this can gain roots. Electric is a low damage set, but the lowest? No. Nor is the comparison to Gravity really valid.
A lot has been said about the chaining issue and the fact that it can miss a group 1 in 20 times. What is not said is that the recharge time of the chaining powers is very low. Synaptic Overload is a non-aggro AoE confuse on a base sixty second recharge. It does have a 1 in 20 chance to miss. However it also recharges 4 times faster than Mass Confusion. The odds of it missing all 4 times are not 5% (1 in 20) but 0.000625%. Meanwhile the odds of Mass Confusion ever recharging faster than in about 60 seconds are zero. Seriously, the power is a ranged Seeds of Confusion that does not cause aggro! Read that again and let it sink in. For the price of missing less than one percent of the time compared to the timetable of Mass Confusion, and missing 5 percent of the time on the timetable of Seeds, you get the a ranged non-aggroing AoE mezz on the same Recharge as Mind's Control's sleep power. The odds to hit 16 enemies are exactly the same as any other power. The only downside is that it will sometimes not work. And if that happens, the enemies aren't the wiser, and even if they are the power is back up in 30 seconds on an average build, and 13 on an IOed one. It may not be your cup of tea, but to say this set is worse than Gravity is, IMO, taking it way too far. As for Jolting Chains: it's just ok. But it's also just one power. Fire has Bonfire and Plant has Spirit Tree and that one power is "just ok" but not proof those sets are broken. |
The set is lacking in hard controls especially in the early levels. (Though it does have a plethora of soft controls).
The chaining effect isn't as simple as this:
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| It does have a 1 in 20 chance to miss. However it also recharges 4 times faster than Mass Confusion. The odds of it missing all 4 times are not 5% (1 in 20) but 0.000625%. |
Chaining powers also suffer when up against a spawn containing armored targets (think Crey and PPs for example) as the chain is much easier to break in these cases or when the mobs are spread out far enough that the chain jumps to a mob that is a bit out from the rest of the spawn and then there are no legal targets near enough to jump to. This will also break a chain.
Chaining powers also take a finite and measurable amount of time to jump from target to target. If the targets (in the case of Synaptic Overload) are aggroed before the chain is complete (quite typical when gremlins are out or while teamed) or if a proc is placed in the power (nullifying the stealth aspect of the chain) the controller can be defeated before the power finishes chaining. In higher levels (when the powers actually can begin to come in to their own by having an adequate amount of enhancement slots assigned to them) the spawns can be defeated by the rest of the team before chaining is complete.
The absolute worst problem even with quick recharge is that 5% (or more if acc is low) of the time the power will fail completely. In the time it takes for the power to recharge and be applied again the controller can easily take enough damage to be defeated.
I still stand by my opinion. It's not a really good set for teaming because of its lack of hard controls, all the chaining delays and the 5% (or higher) chance of complete failure every time a chain power is used.
It's not a good solo set for the above reasons plus the low damage output.
If I had to sum it up I would call it the Murphys Law set. The time the chain is going to fail is the worst possible time for it to do so.
Edit - Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the set may not be fun to play. I'm responding from my own point of view and my experiences in the closed betas. The OP's question was in regards to which of the unique mechanics are best. IMO the mechanics of DP and elec control are not good mechanics and are actually disadvantageous as currently implemented especially when compared to existing sets with "standard" mechanics. With that in mind kin melee's siphon is the best unique mechanic of the new sets.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
To the OP:
It's worth pointing out that the chaining effect in some of Electrical Control's powers is not new - Electric Melee has had a chain power for years. Power Siphon is very similar to Fury in that it's a stacking damage buff (though it's slightly different), so while it may be unique among sets the concept is certainly nothing new. I suppose in this case the winner goes to Swap Ammo by default, because there's no other way to change power effects on-the-fly (procs can sort of do this but they're unreliable and don't accomplish the same thing). It's too bad Swap Ammo is in a rather subpar powerset.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Warshades.
Chaos wins the thread
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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300% recharge buff gives you a 60s recharge Mass Confusion. The recharge buff cap is 400% (48s for a capped Mass Confusion). Sure, 300% is difficult to achieve, but the odds aren't zero. (Of course, I realize you're trying to drive home the point about the rate differential between the two powers.)|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Meanwhile the odds of Mass Confusion ever recharging faster than in about 60 seconds are zero.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
The set is lacking in hard controls especially in the early levels. (Though it does have a plethora of soft controls).
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By level 18 (which I would consider the cutoff for 'early levels' for a primary set), you've got all the hard control you're going to have, and only Earth, Fire, Gravity, and Mind will have more hard control by 32. That count puts Electric solidly in the middle as far as hard control go.
My one problem with the set would be having both Jolting Chain and Conductive Aura available before Paralyzing Blast. 3 AoE damage powers (adding in Chain Fences for a 3rd) on a squishy at level 8 with no AoE hard control is a spell for trouble. Low-level Fire/Kins run into the same problem when they're trying to play as if they're already a level 50 farmer (Fire Cages + Hotfeet).
But now the thread has devolved into a discussion on the merits of Electric Control. The original question is which mechanic is the most unique. Of the three presented, I agree with macskull's reasoning, placing Dual Pistols as most unique set. However, I would like to add Dual Blades to the ring, sporting its own special mechanic of combos.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I dont know if its been mentioned, but dual blades combo mechanic seemed to be unique until they gave the combo crit enhancing to MA. Im not the biggest fan of the combos as implemented, but Ive always liked the idea of combo effects.
SS Rage
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"Power sets"
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
SS Rage
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Dual Pistols and Kinetic Melee are both really flashy but numerically sub-par sets. They both have long animations and relatively low DPA, not horribly so but enough to put them near the bottom in sustained damage. Electric Control is a better performer (as long as you aren't soloing) and is still fairly distinct, but fair warning... the sound effects can get old fast.
Still, I have to agree that Dual Blades is still the most distinctive power set, with Dual Pistols as number two purely in terms of being unique. Kheldians also get an honorable mention, though since both Khelds share similar features it's a bit less unique than DB or DP.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
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i'll cast a die for electric control, though I havn't played Kinetic Melee.
Not only is it pretty unique in the chain powers, but its pretty unique as a control set in general. Forcing people to re-evaluate how they play on ATs they may already be pretty comfortable with.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Most unique: DP
Best unique: Elec Control
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
From a pure gameplay standpoint I will go against the crowd and say that IMO the most mechnically unique powerset is one that has been around since the beginning: Ice Control. It is simultaneously the lowest damage powerset in the entire game, the only control set with NO ranged AoE mezzes, several powers that inherently confict with each other, and has in Arctic Air one of the weirdest control powers ever created. And yet, despite not being the best control set out there, it still works. Unfortunately I think if this powerset were released today the screaming about "no hard control" and "impossibly low damage" would be deafening.
While I do think Dual Pistols and Dual Blades are somewhat different from other sets, IMO a blast set is a blast set is a blast set and they all basically do the same thing in the end. Electric is definitely a bit unusual. But for me Ice Control stands out as the weirdest thing I've encountered... in this or any RPG.
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Of the raft of 4 new sets I'd go with Elec Control as well.|
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
i'll cast a die for electric control, though I havn't played Kinetic Melee.
Not only is it pretty unique in the chain powers, but its pretty unique as a control set in general. Forcing people to re-evaluate how they play on ATs they may already be pretty comfortable with. |
* But for me it plays very like my Ice/Psi domi in terms of little hard control but a decent amount of layered soft control (Ice : Fall-over patch, sporadic confuse and -recharge. Elec: Sleep Patch, sporadic fall-over, End Drain).
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Ergh...IMO, SS is probably the worst designed set in the game. 5 crap powers, 1 OK one (KO Blow) and two stupidly good ones (Rage and FS), plus Taunt of course. It just about works overall, but it's a really bad way to go about it. A well designed set has 9 good powers. SS really needs the "Psi Assault" workover done to it IMO.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
SS Rage
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
Dual Pistols and Kinetic Melee are both really flashy but numerically sub-par sets. They both have long animations and relatively low DPA, not horribly so but enough to put them near the bottom in sustained damage.
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I'm with you on DP though. As someone's sig says, its not the worst set. Actually, for defenders, it's very nice due to the high debuff numbers on chem rounds, but overall, for killing stuff, there's better options all round.
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I'll have to take another look at it then... in beta I was horribly disappointed in a KM Brute's damage. Granted Brutes are the worst AT to play Kinetic Melee on since it relies on a damage buff and Brutes have low base damage, but in general it seemed sub-par compared to my Axe and Dual Blades Brutes (and those aren't exactly top Brute sets). I found it to be much like Dual Pistols: not horrible, but a few percent behind most other sets. Especially with a "normal" build that doesn't have massive recharge to get Power Siphon up half the time.
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Originally Posted by PhroX
KM has pretty good DPA actually, and the animations, for the most part, aren't that long. They seem long as they're very "busy", but they're comparable to most other melee sets. And when they do have long anims, like Concetrated Strike, the damage is high enough to keep the DPA competative. You could argue it's a bit low on AoE, but for putting out sustained ST damage, it's excellent.
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Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
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This.
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Warshades.
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I've got a 20+ Elec/Elec Dom on live right now, and I have only one thing to say.
Look mommy, I'm Malta!
Seriously, while it can be 'lacking' in hard control it has some nice soft control in being able to floor the enemy's endurance completely. Slot For EndMod and nothing will be able to do more than brawl after a few seconds of sleeping in a Static Field while you hover over them with Conductive Aura.
Seriously, slot up Conductive Aura with the full Performance Shifter set. It becomes a nearly-free toggle slotted for Endmod that saps enemy endurance while boosting your own recovery AND your regen. Slot Static Field with Fortunata Hypnosis (Remember, Purple sets are easier to get now with Alignment Merits.) and you have an AoE sleep that lasts 25 seconds and recharges in 11.2 that ALSO drains enemy endurance. And that's the sleep-generating-field that lasts 25 seconds, the sleep effect itself lasts 101.86% longer than it would unslotted. Alternatively, slot some generic accuracy, endmod, and sleep IO's and watch them be drained even faster.
Have we had EndMod sets before? Yes, but Electric Control brings it in spades. Floored Endurance is, in my humble opinion, the hardest form of soft control you can get.
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It already IS free. |
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Seriously, slot up Conductive Aura with the full Performance Shifter set. It becomes a nearly-free toggle . . .
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Wasn't paying attention to the end cost for it. Still gives my potential build a place for the Chance for +End proc since I'm going to see what all the end drain and such can do to replace Stamina as an experiment.
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Originally Posted by Street_Wolf
It already IS free.
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Admittedly, of the 4 ATs with KM, Brutes probably get the least out of it, largely down to KM being a set that relies a lot on +dam through PS. Stalkers and Scrappers take far better advantage of it's mechanics.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
I'll have to take another look at it then... in beta I was horribly disappointed in a KM Brute's damage. Granted Brutes are the worst AT to play Kinetic Melee on since it relies on a damage buff and Brutes have low base damage, but in general it seemed sub-par compared to my Axe and Dual Blades Brutes (and those aren't exactly top Brute sets). I found it to be much like Dual Pistols: not horrible, but a few percent behind most other sets. Especially with a "normal" build that doesn't have massive recharge to get Power Siphon up half the time.
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Be wary of this. Since you are both affecting your own End and the End of enemies (and allies) it could end up boosting EVERYONE in the patch, friend or foe. Mightn't be a massive issue of course since the enemies will quickly lose it again but just an FYI.|
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Wasn't paying attention to the end cost for it. Still gives my potential build a place for the Chance for +End proc since I'm going to see what all the end drain and such can do to replace Stamina as an experiment.
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(and this is all Theorycraft based on how I know it works with things like Elec Attacks and thus untested with that power).
Three of the new power sets Duel Pistols with ammo swamp, Electric Control with chained powers, and Kenetic Melee with its Siphon all have new and slightly different mechanics to help set the power sets appart rather then just the normal same powers/different secondary effect that some sets have.
My question is what do you think of these mechanics and which do you think is the most fun/best mechanic?