Enough with the 95% crap!

because math isn't proof. not in this case. you are over exaggerating. combat logs will prove how many times you missed. and if it is taking you 4 shots to kill a minion and 10 to kill a lt, then that is your diff settings. you are given tools to help you along the way. if you choose not to use them, it is not the games fault or the dev's fault. it is YOUR fault.

You sir, clearly win on this one. How silly of me to use math to show things like percentages. Yep, you got me. I can't argue with that kind of logic.

oh boy... another doesn't want to be proven wrong guy. you are not guaranteed to miss 1 out of every 20 times. either give us your combat logs or shut up. this game is already to easy. make it any easier and people will stop playing.

A 95% chance to hit = 5% chance to miss. This is the best case scenario. 100/5 = 20, therefore you have a 1 in 20 chance to miss, meaning, on average, you will miss 1 out of every 20 attempts to attack. You don't need a combat log to prove this.

As I said before it's not about making the game easier, it's about making it less annoying. I don't think anyone is going to stop playing if they suddenly stopped missing.

5% chance to miss is per attack, it's not "you are guaranteed to miss 5% of the time".

There are times when you will go an entire mission without missing a single attack. You don't remember these missions do you? No, of course you don't, because this is what you expect to happen.

There are times when the streak breaker has to kick in every ten seconds. You remember these because missing sucks. They stick out in your mind. Your problem is entirely a perception issue.

But if you actually have capped 95% chance to hit on every single one of your attacks, the fact of the matter is, it is damn near impossible to miss as much as you're claiming. Claiming otherwise is called "hyperbole" and is damaging to your side of the discussion.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

But tactics isn't a strategy! D:
(Tactics being the means to achieve objectives set by a strategy)

Chill of the Night has a 10ft radius. Knockout Blow has a 13ft range, and Foot Stomp has a 15ft radius. Then there's Hurl, with an 80ft range, and you haven't even gotten to APPs.

Oh, and while it's true that a single KOB won't mez a boss, the boss also won't activate CotN while in midair. And while it's true that Dark Servants always have CotN active, DS isn't a boss.

And honestly, there is very little that an upper-level character has to worry about with regard to -tohit aside from Chill of the Night. It's a damn good thing I flashback to level 29 for the dark mirror arcs, or else I'd be facing 8 Dark Servants in order to get my Army of Me badge.

Actually, at best you miss 1 out of 2 times, thanks to the streakbraker forcing you to never miss twice in a row (assuming final hit chance above 90%). Without the streakbreaker, you could miss at best every single time.

While this is apparently the opposite of the previous sentence, I'll roll with it. Yes, you can miss less than 1 in 20. It's extremely possible to, in fact, not miss at all. In fact, assuming a 95% hit rate, you've got about a 35.85% chance to hit 20 times straight in a row. 80 straight hits in a row is about 1% chance, but still possible. You see 95% chance to hit, and think 5% chance to miss. But it's still a 95% chance to hit.

If you're looking for a contiguous string of hits, your odds go down as you make larger and larger strings that you want to examine. But each individual hit is still 95%.

The die analogy, while probably the original source for the clamp values, is not a very good one. In a game of D&D (or other tabletop game using a d20 system), rolling a 1 means you've failed, period. But rolling a 2 rarely means you succeed. In fact, rolling below a 10 is often pretty iffy as to whether you can be successful on the roll. You could argue that the skill modifiers in D&D are analogous to our tohit and accuracy buffs, changing the number we need to roll for success. But for a vast number of characters here, it's either failure on a 1 or overwhelming success. In a tabletop game, that sliding scale that you need to hit is always changing.

Don't make me summon Arcanaville. This is basic statistics. If you have a 5% chance to miss that means, on average, you're going to miss 1 in 20 attempts. Com'n people, I'm not pulling this out of my ***, this is basic math. Now the random nature of things might allow you to go 25 or even 30 attacks before you get a miss, but it will balance out the next time you miss twice in 5 attacks. It's an *average* over time.

Part of the problem here too is the un-randomness of the random number generator which can sometimes make you feel like you're missing a lot, or not missing at all. But at the end of the day you're are indeed going to miss 1 out of 20 times. This ain't speculation, it's fact.

Just as my perception sees every miss and curses under my breath, your perceptions are ignoring them. But they are there.

So once you've used KO Blow, Foot Stomp, Hurl, and let's say Laser Beam Eyes, and that Death Mage is still at 75% health, then what? Kite around waiting for those top tier powers to recharge while plinking away at him with the tier-1 equivalent LBE? Golly, now that sounds like fun.

And yes, I thought I made it very very clear the 1 in 20 is over time. If you look at small sample sets you're bound to see more irregularities, but in large ones over time the statistics will always fall to 1 in 20.

Statistics are like women; mirrors of purest virtue and truth, or like wh**es to use as one pleases. ~Theodor Billroth

Oh. My. OMG.

You've got the power (unless you're skipping every possible power that can be used with some sort of strategy...seriously, do you do that!? Do you not create a character with some kind of style in mind!? You just pick the most vanilla, no effect, powers you possibly can!?) to juggle the damn foe! He's *not* using powers while you do that. Either you....

...you know what? I'll just show you. I don't actually have any Inv/SS characters but...

The streak break ensures that the average is greater than 95% over time and on average.

Anytime you have a miss at that tohit level, the next roll is effectively 100% thanks to the streak breaker.
Over time the 95% and the 100% will tend to settle in between those numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous If it were just one or two things then yes, it's easy to overlook. But it's not. Let's take a typical level 15 mission. Well even set it to -1. Let's try Council. Run into the first mob. Even with a 95% chance to hit I whiff on my first shot. Well it's only 1 out of 20, no big deal. Clearly I won't miss again for a long time. Second shot... whiff!!! damn they're even levels in my -1 mission and I only have a 92.5% chance to hit. So much for the streakbreaker. I then take few hits from a rifle... oops, now my defense is in negatives, so they're hitting me a lot more often, putting me further into negatives and try as I might I can't kill them fast enough cause they're now hitting me with nearly every shot. Then the LT comes and fires off a concussion grenade and I go flying backward. I get back up and try to attack but dammit, I'm now out of endurance, which is fine cause I don't live much longer anyway. This mission sucks. I'll drop it and take something else.

Now how in *the Hell* does *anyone* run out of endurance after 2 attacks!? According to that made up story, you only got off 2 attacks that missed...

Quote:

Lessee, my choices are CoT, CoT, or CoT, so OK, let's try CoT. I run in and an LT immediate debuffs my tohit down to 45%. So I back out of the PbAoE. Now the LT level boss mezzes me. So I get to sit there while the entire spawn pounds on me. I finally wake up, and bam! mezzed again. Lather rinse repeat till dead, which thankfully isn't very long. On my way back from the hospital I fill my tray with break frees. Unfortunately it's not enough to make it completely thru the mission (I need one for every spawn) so I wind up getting to know the floor nurse and inspiration vendor on a first name basis.

Fine, I'll bite. I'd like for you to see the actual game seeing as you're obviously delusional and seeing a completely different game than I am. Just to be clear, I’m not a very good player by any stretch of the imagination. I only get to clock in maybe a few hours a week to play.

Firstly, I'll show you my pride and joy monkey Scrapper I've alluded to on the boards. Honestly, I thought he'd be higher level (only lvl 40) but apparently not. Anyway, he's got a few IO sets and what-not but overall, he's still very squishy (might not be able to see but he’s under 30% def to melee and ranged but just a bit over 30% for AoE, he’s only got the small portion of resistance available in his set, no heal yet). He doesn't even have perma-Active Defense...Anyway, without further ado, Mega Monkey Shield. Take the stage!

"Bartholomew is a genetically enhanced super genius spider monkey created by Crey. When he got too smart and started monkeying with classified Crey files, he was ordered to be disposed of but thanks to the kindness of the scientists that created him, he managed to escape the evil corporation's clutches. Bart aided many of the researchers during the rikti war to reverse engineer some of their teleportation technology and it has become a bit of a specialty for him as he’s built teleport technology into his shield. He now fights crime and rights wrongs as Mega Monkey Shield!"

Huh. Looks like I haven't updated his costume with an animated tail + belt...Anyways it said I haven't logged on the character for 68 days before this...and I haven't played him in longer than that! (I occasionally log onto characters to see what they have on the market or if they have recipes I need).

Anyway, picked up a Carnie mission for him set to +1/x3 with bosses. I haven't played him in a while so I'm a bit rusty but it all comes back after a while...
Mission Video

A Shield Scrapper not squishy enough for you? Fine. Next up, Reploid S8, my homage to Astro-boy and Megaman. He's a Sonic/Ice blaster with only 1 IO from a set in his build: Decimation Chance for Build up in his tier1 attack. I haven't actually played the character for a long long time (over 500 days) and I haven't touched a blaster for nearly as long so I'm really rusty...

"S8 was a boy with a terminal illness that would take his life but was saved by his uncle using cryogenics to preserve the boy until a cure could be found. However, cryogenics at the time weren't full-proof so it only slowed his decay. The scientist was forced to replace much of the boy's body with machine and eventually the man went mad trying to cure his nephew. In his unsettled state, he fitted the boy's frozen tech-body with weapons including the 'Sonic Muncher Arm Buster' and an tech-adaptive module that copied the tech of the cryogenic pod he was stored in. Now awakened, the boy is on the run from his Uncle who wants to use him as a weapon of destruction."

Two videos, the 1st is the Circle of Thorn mission I wanted to show you, set to +0/X2 with bosses. The 2nd video I did first but you don't have to watch, it’s useless (synopsis = I zone a few times, looking for a CoT paper mission, I try a council mission, start it up and remembered that I forgot to set my difficulty up from +0/x0 so stopped recording and finish the mission). I actually had to zone between Brick and FF about 4 times before I finally found a CoT mission...


Exhibit 1
Exhibit 2


Now what can you tell from those missions? Either I'm a damn good player (lol not likely...) or you're exaggerating and complaining about issues within your control, Mr. Capt Fabulous. Yes, it shows me missing...but as you can see, the world didn't end, the enemies still went down and I had fun playing my old characters I haven't picked up in a while.

If you want, I can show you even *more* videos to put against your exaggerated claims.
[PS] Sorry about the quality of the vids. I was in a rush and didn’t know what type of program to use for this so I used WeGame’s client. Any suggestions?

I'm not entirely sure that's true, tho it may be. I suspect if it is, the actual stinting of the data would be extremely small tho, as in a fraction of 1%.

Settle down dude, you're gonna give yourself an aneurysm.

Look, if you don't agree with anything I'm saying (which you clearly don't) that's fine. I'm never going to convince you I'm right, and you're never going to convince me I'm wrong. Obviously you think the game is just peachy-keen the way it is, and I think it needs to evolve into something more. To each their own.

FRAPS.

Lol I'm not even upset. I actually got into it when I added the character bios for flavor. It was more for fun otherwise I wouldn't have spent 2+hours downloading the client, picking old characters of mine that didn't have many IOs and recorded them then spent another several hours uploading the vids and typing out that post.

-Sigh- So what? I guess actually *showing* you that those debilitating End Draining, ToHit Debuffing, -Def'ing foes can be overcome by simply *trying* isn't enough? I'm not trying to convince you to like the game. I'm trying to convince you that what you were saying is grossly exaggerated.

Honestly, those vids should go a step beyond convincing you but put the statements in the 'False' category.

It's much easier to mitigate those things if you're a ranged toon. You can completely avoid the PbAoEs and patches. It's a lot harder for a melee character that has very few options but to get up close and personal.

Sure they can all be overcome, but is it FUN? Running in and out of melee, popping inspirations like they're candy, taking powers you don't want, taking 2-3 times longer to complete a mission... all NOT fun for me. If you revel in it, well great for you. But when I play a GAME, it's for fun. If I'm getting annoyed and aggravated there is something wrong.

One last aside, cause I think I've stated my position many many times and I don't see the point in repeating myself any more. I was playing a Defender a bit last night on a full team (I don't solo anymore, it's just not worth it), and we were fighting Artemis. Whoever thought that "design" was a good idea should spend the rest of his life in an iron maiden. The only words I have to adequate describe the experience would never make it thru the profanity filter.

Are they doable? With enough time and patience, sure. Is it fun? Absolutely not. So why on Earth would I want to do it?

Balanced. That there are some nasty debuffs that non-melee's can avoid is kind of the whole point of being a ranged character. That you will need to be in close range for your melee characters is why you have armors and mez protection.

It can be. I love the fact that my Build up > Teleport > Eagle's Claw strategy worked well in that regard. It was very fun

I did not run in and out of melee or pop inspirations like candy in any of those videos. I actually handycap myself on the scrapper because I'm an idiot that's hoarding 2 columns of the present inspirations. You know what I did? I just used my head and took out the Illusionist/debuffers 1st. If it were a CoT mission, I'd be TPing at the spectral lords or Death Mages with most likely the same result (but with more END at the end).

As for taking 2-3 times longer? Compared to who? Some guy that isn't at my computer playing my characters? Or is this some kind of epeen thing?

I take it your character doesn't have teleport or flight (you're complaining about the caltrops or what?). Artemis can be tough but very doable. You can either have enough time/patience to face down the challenge OR have the proper tools to mitigate them. It's a good thing there are powers you can take that help in some situations and not so much in others. Then it becomes the choice of the player ('cause this is an RPG) to choose them or not in the circumstance that a proper situation arises.

If you don't want to face difficulties like these, there are enemies that don't do super annoying things.

No, I don't but I'd be willing to hear how much

uhh ohhhh.... personal attacks now? guess you don't have any legs to stand on in this argument at all. you have been asked several times for your combat logs, which we could have went over to see if anything strange was happening to you, but you refused. you have been proven wrong many times over about your over exaggeration of what is happening to you and you don't answer all of the questions asked to you.

you stated a few pages back that you were done with this thread then. i suggest leaving it alone now and go back to whatever it was you were playing before this. unless you want to give us your actuall(not photoshopped) combat logs, all you are doing is spitting hyperbole out of your mouth.

Yeah! You tell 'em! Damn whiny fool! Oh... wait...

I don't care anymore. LIke I said, you're never going to change my mind and I'm never going to change yours. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

I never understood why my stalker had to be hidden to autocrit an inanimate object, is it going to move at the last minute ?

Eh, I still stand by it is only a perception thing - and that is something programming can't fix (yet? ).

And this is game is just too easy as is. Unless some one would post combat logs and show real data to the real data shown in the videos (GJ Leo_G btw ), then the occassional miss is drowned out by the countless mobs we constantly defeat.

Just to be clear, when you reach the streakbreaker limit for any tohit range, the next attack autohits without consulting the roll. It doesn't "force the roll" to be 100%, and there's no way for the random number generator to somehow "override" through malfunction this behavior. Because the roll is simply discarded. You can tell by looking at combat logs: when a streakbreaker hit is induced, there's no roll: the logs say attack was "forced" to hit by the streakbreaker.


Also, just for giggles, I've decided to take another look at the rand used by the tohit system. In the past I've data-harvested combat rolls over long periods of time, and theoretically speaking that could create a skew all its own if the rand was somehow affected by game patches: I could be datamining across radically different implementations. However, its now possible to harvest millions of random rolls in a very short period of time, without any real effort from me. I've been looking at those. I want to analyze about a hundred million combat rolls just to see if there is *any* evidence of a problem with the rand. Frankly, I doubt there is one, but just from the data I have so far I can say there's still no evidence of statistical anomalies with one exception which would probably be impossible to detect in actual play (a hint of a spectral anomaly affecting the least significant bits of the rolls, which some non-cryptographically hard random number generators are subject to, and which most people don't care about - this would only affect how often the decimal part of the roll was a particular value across all random rolls, which is unlikely to affect anyone materially).