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So Focused Accuracy got eviscerated in effectiveness simply because he thought it made more sense for it to be nearly useless?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Because he decided those effects made more sense with accuracy, not because he has a vendetta against tohit. +Acc shows up in focused accuracy, in the invention bonuses, and in the VEATs. Its not a wide-spread goal to eliminate tohit altogether: lots of things still have plenty of tohit and would have been easy to change if Castle wanted to change them.
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I'm not even sure where I stand on FA change. I believe ToHit is something that works best in a click power that you use when you need it. In a power where you just get +35% ToHit all the time, all defense is trivial all the time. However, if all you get is +5%, that's pretty pointless. At the same time, nobody at level 40+ needs accuracy (they need ToHit if they need anything).
So the old version was too powerful, new version is pointless. But I don't think ToHit in a toggle works very well anyway. I believe the use and mechanics of ToHit are better kept to click powers.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I was never able to run it full time because of the really high end cost. But I know for some that's not an issue. Most of the time I used it to mitigate ridiculously overpowered tohit debuffs. Accuracy won't do it. Insights won't do it either. Only tohit negates them. And now that option is gone, which means fighting CoT, Arachnos, and Carnies is more trouble than it's worth.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I'm not even sure where I stand on FA change. I believe ToHit is something that works best in a click power that you use when you need it. In a power where you just get +35% ToHit all the time, all defense is trivial all the time. However, if all you get is +5%, that's pretty pointless. At the same time, nobody at level 40+ needs accuracy (they need ToHit if they need anything).
So the old version was too powerful, new version is pointless. But I don't think ToHit in a toggle works very well anyway. I believe the use and mechanics of ToHit are better kept to click powers. |
While the tohit debuff resistance is nice and can often reduce the amount of the debuff, there really isn't much difference between a 50% chance to hit versus a 30% chance to hit. Both will get you killed real quick if you don't run.
I'd be all for changing it to a click power (20 second duration, 90 second recharge) if the old tohit value was restored. What I don't want to see would be something like a 15 second duration and 5 minute recharge, cause that would also just be worthless. If you're fighting things with high defense or stacking tohit debuffs you have an entire mission's worth of them and need the buff for every spawn, not just once or twice per mission.
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Insights (being the small, medium, and yellow inspirations) are pure tohit.
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Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
Most of the time I used it to mitigate ridiculously overpowered tohit debuffs. [...] Insights won't do it either. Only tohit negates them.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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As a general principle, I agree.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
But I don't think ToHit in a toggle works very well anyway. I believe the use and mechanics of ToHit are better kept to click powers.
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Yes, but the smalls are only 7.5%, which isn't going to get you very far. The mediums are better at 18.75% (still would need at least 2 at a time), while the larges are a very respectable 37.5%.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Insights (being the small, medium, and yellow inspirations) are pure tohit.
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But are we then expected to have a full tray of Uncanny Insights every time we fight CoT, Arachnos, Carnies, or anyone else that can debuff tohit 35-70%? How exactly does one do that considering you can only buy them in WW (if you're lucky)? And what happens if you run out halfway thru a mission? Are you supposed to excuse yourself to go get more?
If you have to rely upon inspirations to battle every spawn in a mission something is wrong.
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I don't necessarily disagree. I'm more concerned about getting the functionality back and less concerned about the delivery method.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As a general principle, I agree.
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Here's a novel idea: use tactics. |
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
But are we then expected to have a full tray of Uncanny Insights every time we fight CoT, Arachnos, Carnies, or anyone else that can debuff tohit 35-70%? How exactly does one do that considering you can only buy them in WW (if you're lucky)? And what happens if you run out halfway thru a mission? Are you supposed to excuse yourself to go get more?
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Not the power, the strategy. You don't have yellow inspirations to counteract the -ToHit? Use reds and just defeat the target that's debuffing you faster. Playing a Brute? You usually got some kind of control or KB power, juggle the target(s). Playing a Stalker? Eliminate the debuffers 1st. A Corruptor? Kite until dead. A Dom? That's just too easy...It's even possible to wait out the debuffs...they don't last forever or always hit.
I'm not criticizing your abilities or anything but to me, it doesn't sound like you want to counter -ToHit, you want to completely trivialize it.
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Well said!|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Here's a novel idea: use tactics.
Not the power, the strategy. |
Better than supporting to try and rewrite everything over a relatively easy game.
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Theoretically true, but I've never actually had that happen. I doubt it happens often, because such situations would annoy experienced players and consistently kill novice players. Missions which kill novice players up to thirty times before completion with regularity would be something I would think the devs would notice.
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Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
If you have to rely upon inspirations to battle every spawn in a mission something is wrong.
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Ok, let's say you're an INV/SS Tank. Or a DM/DA Brute. You maybe have one ranged attack. Maybe. And you're fighting CoT with Death Mages using their PbAoE tohit debuffs. Using reds does no good cause your chance to hit is 35%. Control or KB power, sure. Problem is they require tohit checks. 35%. Eliminate the debuffer? That requires being in melee, which puts you in the PbAoE debuff field. 35%.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Here's a novel idea: use tactics.
Not the power, the strategy. You don't have yellow inspirations to counteract the -ToHit? Use reds and just defeat the target that's debuffing you faster. Playing a Brute? You usually got some kind of control or KB power, juggle the target(s). Playing a Stalker? Eliminate the debuffers 1st. A Corruptor? Kite until dead. A Dom? That's just too easy...It's even possible to wait out the debuffs...they don't last forever or always hit. I'm not criticizing your abilities or anything but to me, it doesn't sound like you want to counter -ToHit, you want to completely trivialize it. |
So I'm really keen to hear how, as a meleer with possibly 1 ranged attack, you would deal with 1 or 2 overlapping PbAoE -tohit debuffs as seen on CoT and Carnies. Cause after 6 years the best I've ever been able to come up with is run away till they drop the toggles.
Is that your brilliant strategy? Run away?
And yes, I want to counter 35-70% tohit debuff. Make it maybe 10-15%. Enough to slow me down a little, but not enough to completely neuter me. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Actually, there is another strategy -- don't do the missions. Or turn off bosses while solo. Or find someone to buff you with Fortitude/Forge. Or some other BS way to get around it. Avoiding the problem doesn't mean it's not there. I think for most people it's easier to dump the mission and avoid those factions than it is to make a stink about it.
I find it hard to believe I'm the only one who has had this issue over the last 5 years.
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I find it hard to believe there is any problem after 6 years.|
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
I find it hard to believe I'm the only one who has had this issue over the last 5 years.
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I believe I posted something earlier in the thread about perception and remember the misses. Apparently long forgotten.
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So you're saying I'm only imagining my chance to hit is 35%?
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
I find it hard to believe there is any problem after 6 years.
I believe I posted something earlier in the thread about perception and remember the misses. Apparently long forgotten. |
Hmm, let's see. Here's some more fun tactics:
Easiest one is to joust. It takes a second or so before you get into the effect radius to actually be affected by it. If you jump in with an attack queued you can get a hit or two off without being debuffed. Then, move back out quickly and do it again. It works, and doesn't require ranged attacks. This works especially well with:
You can always see when a unit is casting their debuff power like CotN. You can detoggle them, and there's a good 2-3s cast time before it actually starts working. Good thing you saved Knockout Blow for them, since it holds and detoggles. Pretty much all melees have an option of this sort. Eagle's Claw, Total Focus, etc. Detoggle them right when they start to use it, and it's gone.
The hold itself won't work on bosses, but it works fine on Sorcerers and Daemon Lords fine. Or, as a Tanker, you can get an epic hold. Cast that from range, then do a leap-in KO Blow, for a non-debuffed mag 6 hold. And if you're soloing and fighting boss-rank enemies that you can't handle, maybe you should turn off bosses so you can hold them as lieutenants. Especially if you're fighting them once per spawn and have to resort to inspirations constantly as you claim.
Those, plus the basic "juggle the debuffer" and "kill the debuffer first" all work for me. Besides that? You're seriously Inv/SS so you have a potential +20% to +40% ToHit right there. If between having ToHit, a ranged attack, a 100% hold power, the ability to joust, and the ability to knockdown juggle enemies you STILL can't face Circle? I don't think anything could help other than the complete elimination of ToHit debuffs.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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It's just not worth the time and effort. And I'm not taking a hold power just so I can take out Death Mages. Easier to just skip em.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Hmm, let's see. Here's some more fun tactics:
Easiest one is to joust. It takes a second or so before you get into the effect radius to actually be affected by it. If you jump in with an attack queued you can get a hit or two off without being debuffed. Then, move back out quickly and do it again. It works, and doesn't require ranged attacks. This works especially well with: You can always see when a unit is casting their debuff power like CotN. You can detoggle them, and there's a good 2-3s cast time before it actually starts working. Good thing you saved Knockout Blow for them, since it holds and detoggles. Pretty much all melees have an option of this sort. Eagle's Claw, Total Focus, etc. Detoggle them right when they start to use it, and it's gone. The hold itself won't work on bosses, but it works fine on Sorcerers and Daemon Lords fine. Or, as a Tanker, you can get an epic hold. Cast that from range, then do a leap-in KO Blow, for a non-debuffed mag 6 hold. And if you're soloing and fighting boss-rank enemies that you can't handle, maybe you should turn off bosses so you can hold them as lieutenants. Especially if you're fighting them once per spawn and have to resort to inspirations constantly as you claim. Those, plus the basic "juggle the debuffer" and "kill the debuffer first" all work for me. Besides that? You're seriously Inv/SS so you have a potential +20% to +40% ToHit right there. If between having ToHit, a ranged attack, a 100% hold power, the ability to joust, and the ability to knockdown juggle enemies you STILL can't face Circle? I don't think anything could help other than the complete elimination of ToHit debuffs. |
I do the same thing on the villain side with post level 40 Longbow and resistance Brutes. They love to toss out those multiple 35% -resistance grenades, which are impossible to mitigate. The only option is to keep moving out of the fields. And again, why bother? it's an inefficient waste of time, when I could do 2-3 other missions in the same time without the aggravation.
It's much easier to ignore the crap than it is to fight a losing battle with a single pig-headed dev.
I avoid Circle and Longbow too when I can, but you make it sound like it's impossible to deal with them.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Okay, I've got an Inv/SS tank. I regularly fight two Death Mages at a time without using my toggles. I don't use Rage and since I use Fire Mastery, I don't have focused accuracy.|
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
Ok, let's say you're an INV/SS Tank. Or a DM/DA Brute. You maybe have one ranged attack. Maybe. And you're fighting CoT with Death Mages using their PbAoE tohit debuffs.
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I stack Knock-out blow and the hold from fire mastery to drop any toggles the Death Mages might be using.
Granted, the death mages are only level 50 because I fight them in PI, but I'm not using any of my defensive toggles and I don't use inspirations. The debuffs can be annoying, but they aren't debilitating in most cases.
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No, it's not impossible. But the options are not palatable to me. And it's totally unnecessary. And that's why it frustrates me and keeps pushing me away from this game after even short play periods.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I avoid Circle and Longbow too when I can, but you make it sound like it's impossible to deal with them.
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Let's face it, this game ain't deep. The goal is to earn XP as quickly as possible to advance in level to get more slots and new powers. If I have to do a mission where I have to kite around, jumping in and out of melee like a jackrabbit, time every single movement and attack around their toggle cycles, burn thru tray after tray of inspirations, and have to travel back and forth across a zone to visit my friendly neighborhood Field Analyst twice, then it's just not worth it. All this in an attempt to counter a debuff that's 3-5x stronger than it should be. Sorry but to me that says there's a problem.
There's a reason why most of my characters never make it out of their 30s. Cause the fun to aggravation ratio take a steep nose dive once you start fighting levels 40-up.
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And if you don't have a second hold, cause perhaps you want Laser Beam Eyes instead?
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Okay, I've got an Inv/SS tank. I regularly fight two Death Mages at a time without using my toggles. I don't use Rage and since I use Fire Mastery, I don't have focused accuracy.
I stack Knock-out blow and the hold from fire mastery to drop any toggles the Death Mages might be using. Granted, the death mages are only level 50 because I fight them in PI, but I'm not using any of my defensive toggles and I don't use inspirations. The debuffs can be annoying, but they aren't debilitating in most cases. |
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Question: Do you look at the spawn before you charge in? Because those mobs don't have the auras up before you engage. With the Inv/SS, you find the debuffer(s), and start wailing on them. When you see they're toggling on their debuff (most likely only 1 will), queue up KO blow. It will detoggle and the other won't toggle up for a while (must be some kind of timer thing). Juggle with your control powers (you may not like it, but Hand Clap is probably made for situations like this).|
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
Ok, let's say you're an INV/SS Tank. Or a DM/DA Brute. You maybe have one ranged attack. Maybe. And you're fighting CoT with Death Mages using their PbAoE tohit debuffs. Using reds does no good cause your chance to hit is 35%. Control or KB power, sure. Problem is they require tohit checks. 35%. Eliminate the debuffer? That requires being in melee, which puts you in the PbAoE debuff field. 35%.
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For the DM/DA, you're kinda screwed. -ToHit is the set's weakness. If you can't hit, you can't debuff, mez, heal or buff damage. The best you can do is jump in, hit Soul Drain and try and fight the debuffers quick. It's what I do with on my SD/DM Tanker who needs to hit to buff his SC and heal.
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So I'm really keen to hear how, as a meleer with possibly 1 ranged attack, you would deal with 1 or 2 overlapping PbAoE -tohit debuffs as seen on CoT and Carnies. Cause after 6 years the best I've ever been able to come up with is run away till they drop the toggles. Is that your brilliant strategy? Run away? |
Conversely, if you actually have a KB power, you can send *them* flying instead of running away yourself.
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| It's just not worth the time and effort. |
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BINGO! If I wanted strategy I'd be playing Starcraft II. My day is full of having to think and strategize and manipulate the world. When I play my games I want a few completely mindless hours of feeling super. I don't want aggravation and frustration. The rest of my life gives me plenty of that. I want to jump in, kick ***, and never look back. Once I'm not able to do that, then it becomes a chore. And once that happens I'm done. I'll move onto something else where I don't have to think so hard or work so much (that is, at all...)|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
So you don't want challenge? You just want a game you can fly through without thought or variety? You can always set your difficutly down to -1 for that...
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As for the difficulty being -1, well yeah, when I solo I do often have it at -1/x5. Fighting 2-3 critters at a time is dull and not very super.
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Well, with more recharge than I've got you can double stack Knock-out blow's hold.
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Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
And if you don't have a second hold, cause perhaps you want Laser Beam Eyes instead?
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Well, I guess...but the stuff we're talking about there (like time the KO Blow to detoggle or just target the debuffers 1st) isn't really RTS brand strats...it's almost basic combat faire for CoH...like knowing purple enemies are harder than orange enemies...
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Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
BINGO! If I wanted strategy I'd be playing Starcraft II. My day is full of having to think and strategize and manipulate the world. When I play my games I want a few completely mindless hours of feeling super. I don't want aggravation and frustration. The rest of my life gives me plenty of that. I want to jump in, kick ***, and never look back. Once I'm not able to do that, then it becomes a chore. And once that happens I'm done. I'll move onto something else where I don't have to think so hard or work so much (that is, at all...)
As for the difficulty being -1, well yeah, when I solo I do often have it at -1/x5. Fighting 2-3 critters at a time is dull and not very super. |
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