Another month, another respec trial complaint.
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2010-07-27 24:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I admit that I have two computers next to each other and during the Reactor section and Numina hunts, I read the news on the other machine.
But I heartily agree. Both of those could do with an overhaul. And if no one has done so already, please can someone get Faathim a phone.
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Yeah, I remember when it was a challenge too. And it was fun. I used to run respects just for the heck of it because I really liked running the reactor. Now it's all boring.
I can understand making it a little easier but it's pretty much a joke now.
And the super sidekicking makes it even easier. In the past, you took the risk of being too low to get a mentor or your mentor was low anyway, so you're facing very purple enemies.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
I run the freakspec at +4 on a semi regular basis, that takes away much of the time between waves. Will probably do the same with the riktispec.
The other thing they need to fix is the spawns of -2s that turn up, as any set that mitigates through KD, sprays them all over the walls.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
The reactor, and inane conversation that the boredom of running laps leads to, has nearly resulted in the creation of several Things that Should Not Be among my SG mates. The timers should be shortened or a "next wave" button added, if only to spare the community such abominations as the Great Scrapholio.
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He's an aspect of a god, he shouldn't need a phone. He should be able to just yell into the next zone. Or hand you a piece of floating rock with mission objectives that shift before your eyes, or something.
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
But I heartily agree. Both of those could do with an overhaul. And if no one has done so already, please can someone get Faathim a phone.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
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Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I'd just like to point out the problem with gating respecs behind a difficult trial.
@SPTrashcan
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As boring as I find most respec runs, this is a point that too many folks are missing. If the respec trial is made hard enough to be a challenge for normal players, then it becomes impossible or near enough for a team of people who may actually really need that respec.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I'd just like to point out the problem with gating respecs behind a difficult trial.
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I'm sorry this point is completely invalid.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
As boring as I find most respec runs, this is a point that too many folks are missing. If the respec trial is made hard enough to be a challenge for normal players, then it becomes impossible or near enough for a team of people who may actually really need that respec.
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2 Things:
First, the respec trial is tedious and boring. This has nothing to do with difficulty. I would much rather a constant stream of enemies to fight even if they were -2 or -3; rather than a 3 minute gap between waves that leaves us literally wasting our time for 30 minutes. At least we would have something to keep us entertained.
Second, no one is advocating a difficult trial. Make it as difficult as a Citidel for all I care. Even the worst teams can handle +0 x8.
So this whole counter argument that "Oh no, think of the badly specced people who otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain respecs" really does not have a leg to stand on.
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Bingo. Back in the days when it was considered challenging, the respec complaint threads were about how it was far too difficult if several members of the team had gimped builds and actually, you know, NEEDED the respec. Now we have folks complaining it's so easy it's boring and to make it harder. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
As boring as I find most respec runs, this is a point that too many folks are missing. If the respec trial is made hard enough to be a challenge for normal players, then it becomes impossible or near enough for a team of people who may actually really need that respec.
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Honestly, I don't understand how the Dev's haven't all been committed to the nearest insane asylum by now.
Don't confuse harder and more interesting/entertaining.
In its current form, the problem isn't that it's too easy, it's that it's BORING.
Compare that to the villian "treespec" and you see that the villian version isn't really hard, it's just more fun. You don't have long periods of time waiting for the next spawn.
So I totally agree, the hero respec trials need some work on the entertaining front. I can't think of any other trial or taskforce where a good 30 min is spent sitting around doing absolutely nothing. Even insane long travel through the shadow shard is less boring, at least you can see the sights...
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Sorry, got to disagree. It is a valid point. Things that seem easy and trivial to jaded vets, can seem impossible for others. You're right, usually the spawns in the reactor are defeated in seconds and the team just stands around twiddling their thumbs looking at the clock & waiting for the next one. But not every team out there can defeat them in seconds. |
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
I'm sorry this point is completely invalid.
2 Things: First, the respec trial is tedious and boring. This has nothing to do with difficulty. I would much rather a constant stream of enemies to fight even if they were -2 or -3; rather than a 3 minute gap between waves that leaves us literally wasting our time for 30 minutes. At least we would have something to keep us entertained. Second, no one is advocating a difficult trial. Make it as difficult as a Citidel for all I care. Even the worst teams can handle +0 x8. So this whole counter argument that "Oh no, think of the badly specced people who otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain respecs" really does not have a leg to stand on. |
Case in point, I tried to help 2 new players who were asking about the respec trial. They had completely messed up builds, and knew it. I've done the respec trial dozens of times. I was completely confident going in to it that no matter how bad their builds were, as long as they actively assisted me, we'd be fine. Nope. Failed on the last wave when the reactor was defeated. Those two players simply could not stay on their feet and I couldn't defeat the remaining enemies fast enough to protect the reactor.
The respec trial has to be balanced around the minimum required of players to start it, and with some assumption that those players might have less than effective builds.
Respec trial not enough of a challenge for you? Crank up the difficulty. Run it at +2. Or if you have less than a full team, run it at x8. Personally, I find most TF's pretty boring unless we're running at least +1.
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OK, so how to improve it, without pushing it over the edge for new players who desperately need that respec? I don't see how they could just lower the time between spawns by a significant enough amount to matter, without also creating a very real risk of inexperienced & badly built players getting overwhelmed because they took too long to defeat each wave.|
Originally Posted by Crobar
Don't confuse harder and more interesting/entertaining.
In its current form, the problem isn't that it's too easy, it's that it's BORING. Compare that to the villian "treespec" and you see that the villian version isn't really hard, it's just more fun. You don't have long periods of time waiting for the next spawn. So I totally agree, the hero respec trials need some work on the entertaining front. I can't think of any other trial or taskforce where a good 30 min is spent sitting around doing absolutely nothing. Even insane long travel through the shadow shard is less boring, at least you can see the sights... |
Here's my suggestion: Once a wave is defeated, the timer for the next one drops to 15-20 seconds. That's enough time for most players to recover end/health before the next wave comes in. Leave the fixed timer in place, so that if they take too long, the next wave still spawns. That removes some of the tedium for experienced players, and preserves a realistic challenge for less experienced ones.
Of course, don't expect to get the same number of merits for the trial after a change like this. The trial would be quicker to complete, therefore the devs would have to adjust the reward downward to reflect that & prevent speed farming of merits.
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Unfortunately Peacemoon, Panzer is right, and you are wrong. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Sorry, got to disagree. It is a valid point. Things that seem easy and trivial to jaded vets, can seem impossible for others. You're right, usually the spawns in the reactor are defeated in seconds and the team just stands around twiddling their thumbs looking at the clock & waiting for the next one. But not every team out there can defeat them in seconds.
Case in point, I tried to help 2 new players who were asking about the respec trial. They had completely messed up builds, and knew it. I've done the respec trial dozens of times. I was completely confident going in to it that no matter how bad their builds were, as long as they actively assisted me, we'd be fine. Nope. Failed on the last wave when the reactor was defeated. Those two players simply could not stay on their feet and I couldn't defeat the remaining enemies fast enough to protect the reactor. The respec trial has to be balanced around the minimum required of players to start it, and with some assumption that those players might have less than effective builds. Respec trial not enough of a challenge for you? Crank up the difficulty. Run it at +2. Or if you have less than a full team, run it at x8. Personally, I find most TF's pretty boring unless we're running at least +1. |
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| First, the respec trial is tedious and boring. This has nothing to do with difficulty. |
If you approach the trial from the perspective of a group of players with only one or two that have good builds, difficulty is a huge factor.
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| I would much rather a constant stream of enemies to fight even if they were -2 or -3; |
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| rather than a 3 minute gap between waves that leaves us literally wasting our time for 30 minutes. |
Good thing the developers don't balance the game for everybody who succeeds at events.
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| At least we would have something to keep us entertained. |
I'm going to be brutal here with what I say next: Most of the players running respecs these days aren't doing the trials to correct bad builds.
Most players are running respecs to UNSLOT. They've packed in a couple procs or IO sets that they don't want to lose and want a respec to get that valuable IO back.
Yes, I realize that I am making a sweeping generalization here, and I normally detest when other players make similar sweeping generalizations without direct proof of the statement. I make this particular generalization based on the badge-channel traffic of 5 different US servers. Most respecs that I'm aware of, have participated in, or heard about, were basically started because the leader of the trial wanted to unslot.
Now, could I actually prove this statement numerically? Oh no. I don't have access to the figures of how many teams start the respec trial, how many teams fail the respec trial, nor what the average player does with a respec after a respec trial.
I can state, that from a strictly numerical standpoint, the respec trial hasn't changed from from the I5 and I6 days. Many of the time sheets I made back then are still valid reference sheets for the trial today.
I, however, have changed. My tanks have a better handle on how much aggro they can hold. My blasters have a better handle on how far away from they fight they can be, and which inspirations are best for which situations. My defenders have a better handle on who to buff, when to buff, who to debuff, and when to debuff. My controllers have a better handle on controlling, my scrappers have a better handle on damage dealing. I have become a better player.
I've also become more intelligent with slotting. I already know roughly in advance which powers are going to be most effective with whatever available enhancement the power has.
All of this has a combined effect. The same task that I struggled at pulling off literal years ago is now easy for me, not because anything change on the game end, but because I changed on my end.
As Panzer points out, a player who doesn't have the play experience, the teaming-experience, or the meta-knowledge, will likely be in the same position I was years ago: wondering what the heck is going on and biting the dust.
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My overall opinion then is that the Respec Trial itself does not need to be changed.
However.
That does not mean that there is not room for negotiation here. So here's my proposal: Implement a new Task Force for the reactor.
As a task force it won't carry the Trial rewards, so no respec reward. However, it will carry an increased merit reward.
For those who like the defend the objective gameplay that the Respec Trial Teases: go ahead and set this new task-force up to have a never-ending stream of enemies. As soon as one enemy is defeated, another spawns in.
This approach of creating a new experience allows the developers to keep the Respec Trial where it is: a Trial that can be done even by players that have been leveled to 50 in AE.
It also allows the developers to "please" those who want an epic combat experience in the reactor.
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I like this idea. That sounds like it could be a lot of fun. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
That does not mean that there is not room for negotiation here. So here's my proposal: Implement a new Task Force for the reactor.
As a task force it won't carry the Trial rewards, so no respec reward. However, it will carry an increased merit reward. For those who like the defend the objective gameplay that the Respec Trial Teases: go ahead and set this new task-force up to have a never-ending stream of enemies. As soon as one enemy is defeated, another spawns in. This approach of creating a new experience allows the developers to keep the Respec Trial where it is: a Trial that can be done even by players that have been leveled to 50 in AE. It also allows the developers to "please" those who want an epic combat experience in the reactor. |
/signed
As it currently stands the villain respec trial is more difficult for a sub-optimal team than the hero respec trial. The only difference is that the villain one can't be failed unless the team gives up.
I say compromise, and include a way for the team to trigger the next wave. Possibly add a blinky to the bubble room, that when clicked spawns the next wave in five seconds. If you want to reduce griefing potential, make it so it can only be clicked by the team leader. If you're worried about team leaders griefing, well they can already do that by kicking people when there's one guy left. Yes, it would reduce the merit reward. Some of us wish to be rewarded for playing, not for running laps on a catwalk.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
As boring as I find most respec runs, this is a point that too many folks are missing. If the respec trial is made hard enough to be a challenge for normal players, then it becomes impossible or near enough for a team of people who may actually really need that respec.
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Originally Posted by Peacemoon
I'm sorry this point is completely invalid.
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Certainly, the trial can be made more interesting, but it does need to be EASY, and that generally means boring for a good team / skilled players.
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Why is it a big deal if a team fails a respec trial? If it's made a little harder and/or more interesting and more teams fail because of the change, why is that such a bad thing?
When I do the hero respec, I go get a book or a sudoku puzzle or something for the reactor room. Otherwise there's a good chance I will fall asleep.
I love the idea of having some way to trigger the next wave.
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Like the last wave dying, or mabye 15 -30 seconds after the spawn dies to give time to rebubble and rest if needed.|
Originally Posted by Camper
When I do the hero respec, I go get a book or a sudoku puzzle or something for the reactor room. Otherwise there's a good chance I will fall asleep.
I love the idea of having some way to trigger the next wave. |
It is sad that one can complete the entire villian respec in less time than you spend waiting on the hero respec.
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I think it should be possible to fail the trial.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Why is it a big deal if a team fails a respec trial? If it's made a little harder and/or more interesting and more teams fail because of the change, why is that such a bad thing?
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I loved the trial when they just made it, it was silly difficult, i think we failed it 4 times before succeeding. Made it feel like such a big accomplishment when we made it and got our hard earned respec.
As it is now, it's just not a challenge at all, they could just save us the time and give us the respec 1 hour 30 mins after clicking the contact.
The villain respec is far more challenging than the hero one, and thus far more fun to do.
But if people are so opposed to a challenge. Keep the trial as it is, with only the respec reward as an reward for doing it.
Then add in a proper challenge trial, with more waves, and less time between them, and waves not being lower level. And a proper reward to go with it.
We tried letting some freaks beat on the core a bit, and after 30 seconds, they still hadn't gotten the core down halfway. It's kinda silly, if a team cannot make it to toss in at least 5 coolants in that time, i'm not sure they deserve a respec
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Agree with this completely. Also, agree that the trial is boring as heck. However, like Panzer, I failed this trial with a pick up team who recruited me as the fourth player on the team. It became pretty obvious that I was paired with three inexperienced players and with bad builds, horrible slotting. We died due to complete lack of damage, though we had controls/debuffs aplenty. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Sorry, got to disagree. It is a valid point. Things that seem easy and trivial to jaded vets, can seem impossible for others. You're right, usually the spawns in the reactor are defeated in seconds and the team just stands around twiddling their thumbs looking at the clock & waiting for the next one. But not every team out there can defeat them in seconds.
Case in point, I tried to help 2 new players who were asking about the respec trial. They had completely messed up builds, and knew it. I've done the respec trial dozens of times. I was completely confident going in to it that no matter how bad their builds were, as long as they actively assisted me, we'd be fine. Nope. Failed on the last wave when the reactor was defeated. Those two players simply could not stay on their feet and I couldn't defeat the remaining enemies fast enough to protect the reactor. The respec trial has to be balanced around the minimum required of players to start it, and with some assumption that those players might have less than effective builds. Respec trial not enough of a challenge for you? Crank up the difficulty. Run it at +2. Or if you have less than a full team, run it at x8. Personally, I find most TF's pretty boring unless we're running at least +1. |
Fortunately, everyone had time so we tried it again. I bought everyone new SOs (had I known how badly the three were under-enhanced, I would've done this earlier) and we succeeded on our second attempt.
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I like this idea, trigger the next wave 30s to a minute after the previous wave is finished off. That saves a good team from having to endure the 5 to 9 minute waits, and gives a struggling team the time they need to finish the enemies off. In fact I think that would give a bad team more breathing room. As it is if you take too long on one wave the next could spawn before you finish them.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Like the last wave dying, or mabye 15 -30 seconds after the spawn dies to give time to rebubble and rest if needed.
It is sad that one can complete the entire villian respec in less time than you spend waiting on the hero respec. |
Having said that I don't know if the devs have a way of doing this currently. I suspect it would involve creating a system for it. Hmm, although it seems to me that invasions work similar to this so maybe they do have a way to do it.
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When people are crying about how it used to be, it very much has a leg to stand on, because how it used to be was very, very difficult. Too difficult for what its point was in the first place. Getting a reward once you've proven you don't need it is not good game design. Not for anyone who does not enjoy self-torture, at any rate.|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
So this whole counter argument that "Oh no, think of the badly specced people who otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain respecs" really does not have a leg to stand on.
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If people are looking to improve the hero Respec Trial, then it's a good idea to avoid daydreaming about the old days. Many of us did not enjoy the old days and would not want to see a return to that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've read the replies and yes, I can agree that a respec trial should not be really difficult. However I still can't agree that it should therefore be accepted that it has to be boring. They are not the same thing. This is really bad game design. I shouldn't finish the trial thinking "That was so boring I'm glad its over with." When this games whole purpose is meant to be entertainment.
Also I would like to turn the argument on its head. If the respec trial should be incredibly easy, verging on impossible to fail; then why not simply remove it instead of forcing people to jump through hoops. Surely if there is no way to fail the trial, then in principle it is serving no purpose. I am not suggesting this should actually happen, I'm just trying to make a point about what purpose its actually designed to fill. Rich people buy respecs off of Wentworths, poor people sit through 90 minutes of boredom?
Also the two examples of poeple who failed it are (seemingly) from small teams of 3 or 4. Now I thought to do the trial you had to be a full group, which makes it much easier actually because there is less emphasis on individual people.
Final thought, if you improved the rewards and made it less tedious, you would encourage more players to help out, thereby making it easier for Average Joe to get it down.
We all know why, the reactor room is slow, boringly easy and hardest part of the "challenge" is trying to stay awake.
It never used to be this way, once upon a time trying to protect the reactor was an actual feat worthy of the accolade it rewards.
Now it is a pure embarressment.
Expect another complaint next month when I eventually get enough willpower to put myself through the Rikti version.