Important System Improvements in Going Rogue
By
Adar_ICT,
Posted on: 2010-06-22 09:55 in Developers' Corner
Quote:
I believe that as of Issue 14, Pool C/D recipes are also rare drops off of Boss and higher class enemies. So, technically, they do drop, but infrequently, and from an infrequent enemy type - apparently not enough to fill demand, particularly for recipes that cap out at 30.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
Do these recipies not drop at all? Are they only available through the random rolls?
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Either an average of the last 5 or the last price. Remember, these are meant to be an inf sink. If they are listed at "buy it NAO" prices, that's fine. It means the guy with more inf than patience gets his bid filled, leaving the guy with more patience than inf to get the next recipe a real person lists.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The tricky bit would be determining what price the system should list the recipe at.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I believe that as of Issue 14, Pool C/D recipes are also rare drops off of Boss and higher class enemies. So, technically, they do drop, but infrequently, and from an infrequent enemy type - apparently not enough to fill demand, particularly for recipes that cap out at 30.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
No, this is why it needs to be lower than the buy it NAO price. Otherwise they wouldn't sell as they'd be undercut by players and never actually sell.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Either an average of the last 5 or the last price. Remember, these are meant to be an inf sink. If they are listed at "buy it NAO" prices, that's fine. It means the guy with more inf than patience gets his bid filled, leaving the guy with more patience than inf to get the next recipe a real person lists.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
People probably aren't fighting as many bosses at lower levels, so it's not really helping as much where the shortage is the worst.
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Unless demand (greatly) exceeds supply, at any price, which is the case now and which this idea seeks to address.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
No, this is why it needs to be lower than the buy it NAO price. Otherwise they wouldn't sell as they'd be undercut by players and never actually sell.
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My characters at Virtueverse
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Quote:
That's what I was thinking of, yes. But more generally, boosting the multiplier (as one does when farming) doesn't generally increase the number of bosses by nearly as much as it increases the number of minions and lieutenants. In fact, you don't have to fight bosses at all when solo, and frequently people opt not to so that they can sweep groups faster and generate more purples. So that's even more inf and trash being generated, and less pool C/D. And of course in AE bosses don't drop recipes at all. Lastly, I'm not even sure how many people know that pool C/D recipes drop from bosses at all - I had to look it up, and I'm fairly sure I'm better informed than the median player.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
People probably aren't fighting as many bosses at lower levels, so it's not really helping as much where the shortage is the worst.
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As for seed prices, I would absolutely not recommend that seeded items be listed for any less than the highest successful transaction price for the past week. If they are consistently listed lower than the "going rate", it would be absurdly easy to manipulate the price downward, and in any case you wouldn't want to discourage the player economy by having the seeds consistently underselling players. Rather, putting up the item at a high price and demonstrating that it sells even at that high price encourages players to roll and list more items, knowing that they will be able to sell them quickly for good money.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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You'd be surprised how much value "frankenslotting" sets actually has. I would estimate I have about 25-35% of my sets with only partials from one and more, sure posi's blast is great, but so is a couple pieces of Pounding Slugfest, or entropic chaos, or a hami-o or two in the right spots, not everything needs or wants a homogeneous set all across the board. The devs "balanced" things with that in mind as well, Castle as much as said so during i9 beta, and others.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Freak
Actually diversify the bonuses. Everyone knows that Positrons blast set is great and the rest are crap or purple/pvp. Ranged and Melee Suffer from it too, two good sets and the rest are crap or purple/pvp. The Dev team loves to 'balance' everything they get thier paws on....its time to not halfway it. Balance it all or none of it. |
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This, pretty much. You don't really need to seed items that are already available. They may be expensive now (which makes them a greater inf sink, since market fees are higher), but they are there.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Unless demand (greatly) exceeds supply, at any price, which is the case now and which this idea seeks to address.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
That's what I was thinking of, yes. But more generally, boosting the multiplier (as one does when farming) doesn't generally increase the number of bosses by nearly as much as it increases the number of minions and lieutenants. In fact, you don't have to fight bosses at all when solo, and frequently people opt not to so that they can sweep groups faster and generate more purples. So that's even more inf and trash being generated, and less pool C/D. And of course in AE bosses don't drop recipes at all. Lastly, I'm not even sure how many people know that pool C/D recipes drop from bosses at all - I had to look it up, and I'm fairly sure I'm better informed than the median player.
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I'll admit I'm basing my observations entirely on my own playstyle. I don't turn bosses off when I'm running at +something dumb/x8 at 50. I'm a frickin' Scrapper, bosses are my natural prey. I also raise my difficulty as I'm leveling up. At some point around level 40 or so, on a melee toon or a debuff Corruptor, my difficulty gets to the point where bosses start spawning in random groups. Before that, I'm only getting bosses that spawn as mission objectives. And before that, I'm a lowbie and running with bosses turned off.
Maybe the "no bosses when solo" option should be rethought as well. On lower difficulties it's used by weak soloers or AoE Blasters and such, yes, so it needs to be allowed, but on x8? Who really runs -1/x8/no bosses except farmers?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Just a quick note:|
Originally Posted by War Witch
If you feel as though some of that goodwill and extortion earned is something you shouldnt be able to take with you, stay tuned to Going Rogue information for something in this vein. However, it will not be INF in any fashion.
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If anybody feels any sort of pangs of in-character guilt about taking these resources with them when they switch sides, please feel free to e-mail them to me.
I have no guilt.
Or shame.
That is all.
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We don't want to take gameplay options away from people in order for them to feed the market.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Maybe the "no bosses when solo" option should be rethought as well.
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People avoid Bosses because they are perceived as a nonoptimal investment for inf/xp. Perhaps they should drop Recipes more frequently, so that they are perceived as a more sound investment for drops and to make fighting them more competitive with spending Merits (but not so much that they are farmed)?
Of course, the players can solve this problem themselves by simply choosing to fight Bosses more often if they want to support the market.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
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Thinking of the market as in any sense a cooperative endeavor is a profound misunderstanding of a) the market and b) human behavior. There have been no shortage of what some call "magic pony plans" for fixing the market issues. None of them work, or will work, because they call on people to do things that are not directly beneficial to them, except indirectly, and even if enough people were doing it for those indirect benefits to appear the whole enterprise would be sabotaged if anyone made the rational decision to do what is best for them and mooch off of others' contributions.
I'm sorry to go off like this but "the players can solve this themselves" is as vacuous a statement as "if we all just learned to get along and share there wouldn't be any more wars or crime." People don't work that way. That said, I'm optimistic that under the right conditions, the option that people will follow because it benefits them is also the option that benefits everyone else. The conditions we are in are not those conditions, and I know this because we still have problems.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Some notable multiplier of the cost of buying a common recipe at that level would probably work. Given that generally it'll just be filling the highest available bid at the time anyway.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The tricky bit would be determining what price the system should list the recipe at.
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My vote would be for completely random, perhaps weighted a bit so the average price isn't 1 Billion inf. Just about anything else than random would lead to accusations of 'Dev price fixing'.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The tricky bit would be determining what price the system should list the recipe at.
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Not that I would be against that per se.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Until the amount of inf you can earn from boss drops equals the amount of inf made from purples by players who run with bosses off, that's still not going to work. Of course for Controllers who farm, bosses present a risk that is probably not worth any reward.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
We don't want to take gameplay options away from people in order for them to feed the market.
People avoid Bosses because they are perceived as a nonoptimal investment for inf/xp. Perhaps they should drop Recipes more frequently, so that they are perceived as a more sound investment for drops and to make fighting them more competitive with spending Merits (but not so much that they are farmed)? |
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| Of course, the players can solve this problem themselves by simply choosing to fight Bosses more often if they want to support the market. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Personally I don't mind all the people who are whining about WW being unuseable by their heroes for RP reasons, I'm more annoyed at the ones who will declare that since a market merge was "never going to happen" and it did, raising the level cap/open PvP in all zones/some other terrible idea is obviously next.
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Well the idea isn't to get everybody to choose to fight bosses, just more/enough people. And the total inf doesn't have to meet or exceed; some people will be plenty happy with more frequent money.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Until the amount of inf you can earn from boss drops equals the amount of inf made from purples by players who run with bosses off, that's still not going to work. Of course for Controllers who farm, bosses present a risk that is probably not worth any reward.
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| Yeah, you try that and tell me how it works out for you. 'Cause right now it's not working out very well for me. I fight many many bosses (not because I live in some magical pony fairy-tale land where I want to help people, but because I am more concerned with fun than efficiency, I find bosses more fun than no bosses, and I want those pool Cs and the inf they sell for) and I have yet to get a significant pool C drop from one. |
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I hereby submit that the devs look at the terrible ideas of allowing us to set the level of random merit rolls and revamping the AE search interface.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Personally I don't mind all the people who are whining about WW being unuseable by their heroes for RP reasons, I'm more annoyed at the ones who will declare that since a market merge was "never going to happen" and it did, raising the level cap/open PvP in all zones/some other terrible idea is obviously next.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Works for me just fine, thanks (I fight Bosses too). Of course, my standards for drops are probably not the same as yours. My entire beef with the current system is when one of my inventories turns red while I'm in the middle of having fun.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
It's somewhat poor form to try to address one issue by phrasing it as a way to address another unrelated issue. It also doesn't happen to work.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
My entire beef with the current system is when one of my inventories turns red while I'm in the middle of having fun.
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Not what I was trying.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
It's somewhat poor form to try to address one issue by phrasing it as a way to address another unrelated issue. It also doesn't happen to work.
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I'll let the devs decide how much the two are related, since only they (probably) have the tools to make that determination.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Most definitely I've seen days when those common IO's were that high. Now that's not to say they indefinitely stayed at that price but whenever they fluctuate they never sell for less but always more. Secondly I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that in relation to the blue markets that there is a severe drought in red side merchandise. Ask anyone who frequents the red market with any regularity or more importantly all the red market commentators on the boards who are ecstatic over this merger news and ask them if there is a drought? lol There is only one reason why they are so happy that the markets are being brought together and it sure isn't because of symmetry or anything |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Erm, common Accuracy IOs go for 700,000 to a million? Really? The same ones you can buy at the crafting tables to craft? Are you sure you're not resorting to hyperbole here at all?
I love the idea of a market merge but as someone who has been happily frankenslotting all of my powers for the last 2 weeks Red Side calling the redside market "a complete drought" is a gross exaggeration. |
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Apparently War Witch is the one that was prophesized to bring balance to the force.|
Originally Posted by Lord_of_Time
There is only one reason why they are so happy that the markets are being brought together and it sure isn't because of symmetry or anything
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Concept art for War Witch's update for Going Rogue compared to Issue 17. Note the reflections added for Ultra Mode.
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Thankfully.. VERY VERY few of them.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
If the Devs need a workable market model I'd suggest taking a look at EVE. I'm in love with the market system and BrokerFee formula. What other games allow me to export market spreads with median day pricing directly to excel spreadsheets. <3
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Arc #1267 The Key of Brass and Flame
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It's barely worth mentioning, but you're wrong.
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Originally Posted by Lord_of_Time
There is only one reason why they are so happy that the markets are being brought together and it sure isn't because of symmetry or anything
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Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!!!
O wait, this is a good change.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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Because having the option (option meaning "optional," not "required," in this context) to do more advanced things with data is bad? The beauty of having that option means if you never ever wanted to look at that data, you wouldn't have to, and if you wanted it, it would all be right there at your fingertips.
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Originally Posted by TerraFan
Thankfully.. VERY VERY few of them.
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Do these recipies not drop at all? Are they only available through the random rolls?